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Fatemaster Flips


spect_spidey

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Just curious, anyone know why they made the rules so that the Fatemaster never flips? It would seem to me that the rules would flow better if there were two separate decks, one for the Fatemaster and one for the Fated. The mechanics would then work similar to Malifaux. It seems to me that the current mechanic would eventually take away some of the mystery of the game. When the Fated encounter a certain type of NPC they will always know the target number based upon a previous encounter and will always know a range of TN based upon the adversary being a minion, henchman, etc. I think flipping for the Fated opponents would add randomness back into the game. I mean if a person created their character right, they could make it so they could always overcome a certain degree of opponent without ever having to worry about what they flip. It all seems odd to me and a bit clunky.

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3 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

Just curious, anyone know why they made the rules so that the Fatemaster never flips? It would seem to me that the rules would flow better if there were two separate decks, one for the Fatemaster and one for the Fated. The mechanics would then work similar to Malifaux. It seems to me that the current mechanic would eventually take away some of the mystery of the game. When the Fated encounter a certain type of NPC they will always know the target number based upon a previous encounter and will always know a range of TN based upon the adversary being a minion, henchman, etc. I think flipping for the Fated opponents would add randomness back into the game. I mean if a person created their character right, they could make it so they could always overcome a certain degree of opponent without ever having to worry about what they flip. It all seems odd to me and a bit clunky.

There are a bunch of reasons, but the main one is that having the Fatemaster use cards evens the playing field too much.

In a game of Malifaux, three or four models attacking a Henchman or Master can usually bring them down through sheer weight of AP. How many PCs are in your group?

The only way to give powerful NPCs like Henchmen or Masters the staying power that they deserve to have is to either give them inflated stats (Defense 9! Willpower 11!) or to make up additional rules as to why they can't be killed in a turn of combat (Reduce all damage suffered to 1! Auto-riposte!). Having them flip fixed values solves that problem in a more elegant manner, allowing mooks to get knocked out relatively easy while keeping the boss encounters appropriately tough and scary.

I've played about a half-dozen games of TTB with the Fatemaster flipping cards, all for the purpose of seeing if it would work, and all it really does is make the game more random, with unsatisfying combats (Minions blowing away PCs when they hit a string of high cards while the PCs are low, Henchmen flipping poorly and getting dropped in two activations) and longer fights (every time the Fatemaster flips a card, it adds a few seconds to the game's length, and that quickly starts to add up).

It also devalues the cards in the hands of the PCs: cheating fate is usually a viable option against Minions that flip 5s and 6s or even Enforcers that flip 7s and 8s, but when those Minions have a chance to flip 10s or 11s, a lot of the "good" cards in a Twist Deck, the 7+ cards, become pretty underwhelming.

The Rank Value system might seem clunky at a glance, but if you haven't seen it in action, I'd give it a few tries to see how you feel about it. In my experience, it actually ends up playing pretty smooth on the table (and it makes it much easier for a Fatemaster to set up appropriate encounters for the group, once she's got a sense for the Fated and their combat parameters).

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I can see that reasoning but it also seems to make some adversary abilities function weird, clunky, confusing, or all three.

It also seems to make adversary triggers weird. Maybe I don't understand the rules correctly or I am missing the intention. But if everything is measured then where is the doubt in combat? If the Fated can easily calculate odds and victory is assured based upon knowledge that an enemy will only pose X amount of threat or difficulty IMHO, it makes combat meaningless. It becomes a game similar to 4th edition D&D where the threat is not real because every combat is set to expend X amount of resources based upon challenge level.

I think a possible better solution is increasing wounds of adversaries rather than defense or willpower. Because stats are confined to such a small value range and adversaries are constant, it means a Fated will almost always know whether they will go before or after that young nephilim and whether their one attack will always wound or not. To me, this loses some of the strategy that Malifaux provides. The randomness is needed to make player's fear for their characters. Not every battle or situation should be fair or winnable. Sometimes even trying to cheat Fate shouldn't be enough.

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For me it totally makes sense not to draw as a fate-master. Combats are more fluid and less time consuming, also characters feel more "fated".
And yes, players can calculate sheer numbers if they know every monster's/enemy's stats, but who cares? You can always pull some tricks out of your sleeve and you can manipulate the monster's/enemy's values on the fly if it's in need or just add more of them. 
If fated are in number disadvantage the combat will be more intense and yes, there might be situations when fated can't be hit by any minion enemy.

There is no system without "flaws", each of them can be calculated, but that's the reason why it contains GM/DM/FM to twist it and add additional level of randomness and unexpectedness. If players want more combat and calculate everything, then maybe it's better to play scenario based dungeon crawl boardgame instead of PnPRPG.

Also never forget that most of numbers or rules are only guidance, not set in stone, so feel free to manipulate them, create new rankings among enemy,  new breeds or races, however do not overuse it or do some radical stuff, try to make it as fluent and natural as it can be and fit into situation.

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46 minutes ago, spect_spidey said:

I can see that reasoning but it also seems to make some adversary abilities function weird, clunky, confusing, or all three.

It also seems to make adversary triggers weird. Maybe I don't understand the rules correctly or I am missing the intention. But if everything is measured then where is the doubt in combat? If the Fated can easily calculate odds and victory is assured based upon knowledge that an enemy will only pose X amount of threat or difficulty IMHO, it makes combat meaningless. It becomes a game similar to 4th edition D&D where the threat is not real because every combat is set to expend X amount of resources based upon challenge level.

Fated characters (the PCs) still flip cards, which adds plenty of variation and randomness to combat.

If they're attacking, they flip cards against a set TN determined by the NPC's defense.

If they're being attacked, they flip cards against a set TN determined by the NPC's attack.

 

It has the same amount of randomness that most RPG systems do. For instance, in DnD, L5R, and most other RPG systems:

If they're attacking, PCs roll dice against a set TN determined by the NPC's defense (AC).

If they're being attacked, the enemy rolls dice against a set TN determined by the PC's defense.

 

The only difference is that it's moving the "generate random result" into the hands of the players, instead of leaving it in the hands of the GM.

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I get what everyone is saying, but I am not sure everyone is understanding my point. It seems without the randomness for adversaries, that it becomes too easy to completely eliminate possible opponents from use.

Looking at character creation, a player can create a Fated that only needs a 4 or 5 on a flip to evade most minions. I figure with a few advancements, those AV 9 or 10 minions no longer become a threat since the card needed to beat them becomes so low. I may be wrong, but it seems like eventually the only worry is flipping the black joker.

My experience has been that when players no longer fear adversaries it changes their way of playing. If you no longer have much to fear from a Freikorpsman damaging you, then it doesn't matter if you decide to attack them. With their constant values, they will never hit you. Giving them a card flip makes them more dangerous. It puts doubt into a player's mind whether it is worth the risk of getting into a fight or not. That is what I am trying to get at the known static values can change thought patterns in players and cause certain things to become irrelevant.

Even in D&D, a bunch of goblins have a chance against high level characters because of critical hits and numbers. TTB doesn't have that because there is only one black joker to draw and flipping a 1 could still mean success. At a certain point Fated will always succeed against minions and then only Enforcers will challenge them and then eventually only Henchmen.

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On 9/20/2017 at 9:28 AM, spect_spidey said:

Looking at character creation, a player can create a Fated that only needs a 4 or 5 on a flip to evade most minions. I figure with a few advancements, those AV 9 or 10 minions no longer become a threat since the card needed to beat them becomes so low. I may be wrong, but it seems like eventually the only worry is flipping the black joker.

At character creation, someone who min-maxes a character this way has other glaring weaknesses that the Fatemaster can use to make interesting stories. Outside of that, it makes sense for someone who is a notch above a minion to be able to relatively easily best them when they're playing to their strengths. A Might 3, Pugilism 3 Fated character is a nasty brawler--but they have to get in close to do stuff, and their other stats aren't going to be quite as good for that. A Grace 3, Pistols 3 Fated can be a horrifically good mid-ranged gunfighter, but they have to deal with opponents in cover, reloading, and dealing with opponents that get into melee range--where their stats aren't as helpful at keeping them in fighting shape without help.

However, fighting minions isn't the only thing to do in Malifaux.

When combat does break out, the rank system is a tool that Fatemasters can use to adjust the difficulty level on the fly. A Minion (5) that sets TNs to resist to a 9 can be promoted to a Minion (6), which sets the TNs to a 10. This increase in difficulty may seem trivial, but it reduces the probability of success. A swarm of Zombies, Rats, or Gremlins can still threaten higher ranked characters if the Fatemaster wants them to.

As @Mason already pointed out, there is still random number generation being used--it's just entirely in the Fated player's hands. You flip for your defense against the acting value of the opposing character. Having played other systems where the *M has to generate their own random numbers, I definitely can appreciate the streamlining effect of it. Sure, it means I can never fudge the random number result to prevent a rocks fall scenario befalling the Fated, but if I'm in a position where I'm having to do that I didn't prepare a session for the Fated crew in front of me. The other side of the coin, not being able to fudge things for the NPCs to hit also doesn't come up. If I want the NPCs to hit, more Gremlins attacking means more cards flipped. More cards flipped means I will eventually land hits (card probability at work). The way the triggers and critical work, it doesn't take more than a few hits to make most Fated start trying to figure out ways to avoid getting hit or hurt altogether. Increasing the rank of the attacking models (or even the station characteristic, which has tools that make things harder on the Fated as well) increases number of cards that those attackers will hit on.

One of the key differences between card probability and dice probability is that dice probability is memoryless. It's entirely possible to roll 15+ 30 times in a row on a d20. It's also entirely possible to roll a 1 five times in a row on that same die. Whatever you have rolled before does not affect what you will roll next. Card probability is not memoryless. The random ordering is set during the shuffle (and the order, type, and count of the shuffle affects it), and as people flips cards off of the deck it increases the probability of the opposing effect to happen. The more often the Fated flip successes, the more likely they are to flip failures in the future, and vice versa. This doesn't get reset until the Fatemaster reshuffles the deck (either because it ran out, or the FM decides to do it due to a scene or timing change).

If the encounter isn't scaled for the Fated crew, even a Black Joker is still a success for the Fated. A single Mindless Zombie being shot by the Fated character with Grace 3/Pistols 3 is effectively automatically hit. How clean a hit is determined by the differential. So don't throw MZ at your Fated gunslinger unless your intent is to run them out of bullets just in time for the Zombie Swordsmen to ambush them. A flurrying Zombie Swordsman with a defensive TN of 12+ is a terrible threat to that gunslinger, especially if you as the Fatemaster bumped its rank because combat has generally been easy for your Fated crew (normally its TN is 11, but by increasing its rank I can get the 12+).

Edited by spooky_squirrel
clean up on NPC TN
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30 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

At character creation, someone who min-maxes a character this way has other glaring weaknesses that the Fatemaster can use to make interesting stories. Outside of that, it makes sense for someone who is a notch above a minion to be able to relatively easily best them when they're playing to their strengths. A Might 3, Pugilism 3 Fated character is a nasty brawler--but they have to get in close to do stuff, and their other stats aren't going to be quite as good for that. A Grace 3, Pistols 3 Fated can be a horrifically good mid-ranged gunfighter, but they have to deal with opponents in cover, reloading, and dealing with opponents that get into melee range--where their stats aren't as helpful at keeping them in fighting shape without help.

However, fighting minions isn't the only thing to do in Malifaux.

When combat does break out, the rank system is a tool that Fatemasters can use to adjust the difficulty level on the fly. A Minion (5) that sets TNs to resist to a 9 can be promoted to a Minion (6), which sets the TNs to a 10. This increase in difficulty may seem trivial, but it reduces the probability of success. A swarm of Zombies, Rats, or Gremlins can still threaten higher ranked characters if the Fatemaster wants them to.

As @Mason already pointed out, there is still random number generation being used--it's just entirely in the Fated player's hands. You flip for your defense against the acting value of the opposing character. Having played other systems where the *M has to generate their own random numbers, I definitely can appreciate the streamlining effect of it. Sure, it means I can never fudge the random number result to prevent a rocks fall scenario befalling the Fated, but if I'm in a position where I'm having to do that I didn't prepare a session for the Fated crew in front of me. The other side of the coin, not being able to fudge things for the NPCs to hit also doesn't come up. If I want the NPCs to hit, more Gremlins attacking means more cards flipped. More cards flipped means I will eventually land hits (card probability at work). The way the triggers and critical work, it doesn't take more than a few hits to make most Fated start trying to figure out ways to avoid getting hit or hurt altogether. Increasing the rank of the attacking models (or even the station characteristic, which has tools that make things harder on the Fated as well) increases number of cards that those attackers will hit on.

One of the key differences between card probability and dice probability is that dice probability is memoryless. It's entirely possible to roll 15+ 30 times in a row on a d20. It's also entirely possible to roll a 1 five times on that same die. Whatever you have rolled before does not affect what you will roll next. Card probability is not memoryless. The random ordering is set during the shuffle (and the order, type, and count of the shuffle affects it), and as people flips cards off of the deck it increases the probability of the opposing effect to happen. The more often the Fated flip successes, the more likely they are to flip failures in the future, and vice versa. This doesn't get reset until the Fatemaster reshuffles the deck (either because it ran out, or the FM decides to do it due to a scene or timing change).

If the encounter isn't scaled for the Fated crew, even a Black Joker is still a success for the Fated. A single Mindless Zombie being shot by the Fated character with Grace 3/Pistols 3 is effectively automatically hit. How clean a hit is determined by the differential. So don't throw MZ at your Fated gunslinger unless your intent is to run them out of bullets just in time for the Zombie Swordsmen to ambush them. A flurrying Zombie Swordsman with an AV of 12+ is a terrible threat to that gunslinger, especially if you as the Fatemaster bump its rank because combat has generally been easy for your Fated crew.

Your post is looking at it from attacking. I am looking at it from Fated defending. A starting character can have a Defense and Willpower of 5. This means for a typical minion they need to flip a 5 or better to avoid an attack. That is not hard to do.

As a player focuses on increasing Defense & Willpower their dependency on the flip lessens. This makes the threat lessened. So if the player has no fear of that enemy, they won't care if the combat takes forever to defeat the enemy since there is no probability of damage. As a Fatemaster I shouldn't have to change enemy stats to make the opponent a challenge. IMHO that is a flaw in game design. If the intention is for me to do that why even have NPC stats?

An enemy of any kind should pose a threat no matter how experienced the Fated is. Having their AV constant causes enemies to become less threatening and obsolete as characters advance. Any enemy shouldn't become obsolete simply because the character now automatically beats their AV. That is what will happen in TTB.  How would Malifaux play if no minion could ever hurt a master?

This can be applied to any situation in the game. Max out charm and no one could ever resist you. I use Defense & Willpower as my main example due to combat and death being the most prevalent ways a Fated could be removed from the game.

IMHO, the more you remove the ability for random results the less exciting, dangerous, and fun interacting with the world is. My players always remember the times there were critical hits and fumbles whether PC or NPC. I couldn't see them talking about the time they auto-evaded all those attacks because their Defense was higher than the enemy AV.

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20 minutes ago, spect_spidey said:

Your post is looking at it from attacking. I am looking at it from Fated defending. A starting character can have a Defense and Willpower of 5. This means for a typical minion they need to flip a 5 or better to avoid an attack. That is not hard to do.

As a player focuses on increasing Defense & Willpower their dependency on the flip lessens. This makes the threat lessened. So if the player has no fear of that enemy, they won't care if the combat takes forever to defeat the enemy since there is no probability of damage. As a Fatemaster I shouldn't have to change enemy stats to make the opponent a challenge. IMHO that is a flaw in game design. If the intention is for me to do that why even have NPC stats?

An enemy of any kind should pose a threat no matter how experienced the Fated is. Having their AV constant causes enemies to become less threatening and obsolete as characters advance. Any enemy shouldn't become obsolete simply because the character now automatically beats their AV. That is what will happen in TTB.  How would Malifaux play if no minion could ever hurt a master?

Have you considered that there are reasons why the player characters are called "Fated"?

When was the last time you saw an action movie where the heroes were killed by random goons?  If the goons use tactics and special modifiers to gain advantages, their basic goon stats haven't changed but they can still represent a challenge.

20 minutes ago, spect_spidey said:

This can be applied to any situation in the game. Max out charm and no one could ever resist you. I use Defense & Willpower as my main example due to combat and death being the most prevalent ways a Fated could be removed from the game.

IMHO, the more you remove the ability for random results the less exciting, dangerous, and fun interacting with the world is. My players always remember the times there were critical hits and fumbles whether PC or NPC. I couldn't see them talking about the time they auto-evaded all those attacks because their Defense was higher than the enemy AV.

You're welcome to have your opinions, as long as you're willing to acknowledge that people have valid reasons for disagreeing with you. :)

 

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2 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

Your post is looking at it from attacking. I am looking at it from Fated defending. A starting character can have a Defense and Willpower of 5. This means for a typical minion they need to flip a 5 or better to avoid an attack. That is not hard to do.

With card probability it becomes progressively harder to do. The more often a 5+ is flipped, the more likely a 0-4 will be flipped.
As I've said (and Mason has said in Q&A regarding the TTB system), if you (as Fatemaster) are finding that combat is too easy for your Fated crew, you bump the Rank of the NPCs. A typical Minion (5) becoming a Minion (6) means that the player who needed to flip a 5 to defend now needs to flip a 6 or better to avoid the attack. This is harder to do than flipping the 5 or better, and it means that the likelihood of continuing to avoid attacks is significantly reduced. As an exercise (base assumption is no cheating fate involved):

  • Fated needs a 5+ to defend against effect from single opponent, assuming full deck at start and that the player succeeds every flip:
    • First time defending, the deck has 17 cards that will fail and 37 that will succeed. Probability of succeeding: 68.5%
    • Second time defending, the deck still has 17 cards that will fail and 36 that will succeed. Probability of succeeding this defense alone: 67.9%. Probability of succeeding on both defense flips is 46.5%
  • Fated needs a 5+ to defend against effect from second opponent, assuming successfully avoiding all from previous opponent, succeeding every flip here, and no other cards flipped between first and second opponent:
    • Third time defending, the deck has 17 cards that will fail and 35 cards that will succeed. Probability of succeeding this defense alone: 67.3%. Probability of succeeding on this defense as well as all previous defense flips: 31.3%
    • Fourth time defending, the deck has 17 failure cards and 34 success cards. Probability of succeeding this defense alone: 66.7%. Probability of succeeding on all four of these defense flips is 20.9%.

It gets progressively harder to defend. Now if I bump the Minion (5) to Minion (6) and operate on the same assumptions, starting with a fresh shuffle and a full deck:

  • First defense flip, the deck has 21 failure cards and 33 success cards. Probability of successful defense: 61.1%.
  • Second defense flip, 21 fail cards and 32 success cards. Probability of defense here alone: 60.4%. Probability of defending all: 36.9%.
  • Third defense flip, 21 fail cards and 31 success cards. Probability of defense here alone: 59.6%. Probability of defending all: 22.0%.
  • Fourth defense flip, 21 fail cards and 30 success cards. Probability of defense here alone: 58.8%. Probability of defending all: 12.9%.
2 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

As a player focuses on increasing Defense & Willpower their dependency on the flip lessens. This makes the threat lessened. So if the player has no fear of that enemy, they won't care if the combat takes forever to defeat the enemy since there is no probability of damage. As a Fatemaster I shouldn't have to change enemy stats to make the opponent a challenge. IMHO that is a flaw in game design. If the intention is for me to do that why even have NPC stats?

Fated character players can do things to improve their odds, including cheating fate so that if a defensive flip fails they can still pass it anyway, but at a resource cost (their Twist hand). Eventually those resources run out, and even being on positives due to taking defensive actions won't always help. Eventually the Fated will have to do something to end that conflict. Note: bumping the rank of an opponent is changing one thing about it to increase the challenge. That's not "changing enemy stats" in the same way other game systems handle increasing the level of a hostile mobile, because the only thing that their rank does is apply a default flip value. You're using the same stat line and changing the value that determines what the Fated needs as a target number. That is deliberate in the game design.

NPC stats are there for you to use as you see fit when you're the Fatemaster. If you're looking to make combat challenging, you play to the strongest values on the NPCs stat line. That is, you put Guild Riflemen up on a rooftop or elevated ridgeline and have them shooting at the Fated from a long ways away. If you're using a shooter that happens to have decent Stealth, you make your Fated take Notice challenges to try and figure out where the shots are coming from, burning their AP trying to find the sniper while the sniper continues shooting at them.

2 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

An enemy of any kind should pose a threat no matter how experienced the Fated is. Having their AV constant causes enemies to become less threatening and obsolete as characters advance. Any enemy shouldn't become obsolete simply because the character now automatically beats their AV. That is what will happen in TTB.  How would Malifaux play if no minion could ever hurt a master?

I think @solkan provided a perfect response to this. While TTB is not setting the players up as godlike in comparison to other humans (unlike D&D), the Fated characters are characters that are marked by Fate and the Fated have caught glimpses of the fact that they're something special.

Something to note: Malifaux the miniatures game is a direct competition game between two players with hired crews that are led by a Henchman or Master (depending on level of match). In order to support direct competition, the system has to make it possible (even if terribly unlikely) for the lowliest of the low to affect the highest of the mighty.
Through the Breach is a roleplaying system, not a competition game. The Fatemaster puts together a story that the Fated will experience and shape through a number of sessions. What that story looks like is determined by communication between Fated players and Fatemaster, as well as cooperation (or lack thereof) between Fated character players. If an enemy is in danger of becoming obsolete (such as Mindless Zombies), you move on to the next tier of enemies. Mindless Zombie Hordes (separate entry in the rulebook) are significantly greater threats than individual Mindless Zombies. If your Fated crew is hunting a suspected Resser, they're getting more powerful as they get closer to the Resser Boss, but they should also be expecting to run into greater threats.

A mission that starts out because a Zombie Swordsman and a handful of Mindless Zombies overran a Guild Observation Post organically progresses towards running into Mindless Zombie Hordes instead of Mindless Zombies, more Zombie Swordsmen, and eventually, undead of greater power, until the Fated eventually confront the Resser foe in their lair. This is a natural progression in many RPGs.

2 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

This can be applied to any situation in the game. Max out charm and no one could ever resist you. I use Defense & Willpower as my main example due to combat and death being the most prevalent ways a Fated could be removed from the game.

IMHO, the more you remove the ability for random results the less exciting, dangerous, and fun interacting with the world is. My players always remember the times there were critical hits and fumbles whether PC or NPC. I couldn't see them talking about the time they auto-evaded all those attacks because their Defense was higher than the enemy AV.

As Fatemaster, design your sessions so that they don't always play to the Fated characters' strengths. No amount of Charm, Defense, or Willpower will protect a Fated character from drowning or getting frostbite. Guns eventually run out of bullets, and if they take 3AP to reload and freezing/drowning conditions are making your Fated gunslinger Slow (1AP per activation round), they need 3 rounds to reload before they're shooting again. If said gunslinger focuses on reloading for 3 rounds against an enemy that they can avoid being hit by on a 5+, they still have to avoid 6 attacks (avoiding 5 sequential attacks successfully using assumptions above: 13.8%, 6: 9.0%) before they get to start shooting again.

This can actively increase tension. Every attack that fails means there's a higher chance of the next attack succeeding. If your Fated reach a point where they automatically succeed, then you as Fatemaster are responsible for adjusting the Rank, number, and/or type of what you throw at them to create a challenge, as well as battlefield conditions that they find themselves in.

If you're looking for ways to remove Fated from the game, environmental factors and their Fate steps can service this quite neatly. In one of the Penny Dreadfuls, the Fated are involved with a battle over a town. At some point during the battle there is a barreling train racing down a track to slam into a barricade. If the Fated character is in the way, it's like a rocks fall scenario by design. They die. Unlike the stereotypical rocks fall scenario, it is avoidable (don't be on the barricade or train track when it happens). If you're Fatemastering and are looking for environmental factors beyond that, the story Penny Dreadfuls like Nythera involve many natural hazards (supernatural cold, cliffsides with playful Wind Gamin trying to knock the Fated off).
Death and fulfillment of all Fate Steps aren't the only way to retire a Fated. Another Penny Dreadful features a massive Neverborn threat to a town, and the bitterness of failure there isn't players seeing their Fated die (though it could happen), it's the Fated living with the fact that they could not protect everyone, and depending on what they failed to do all the townspeople could be dead. The Fated characters' play don't die, but they now have reason to retire. Being able to win combat does not guarantee mission success, and you can shape your adventures so that the mission could fail if there's sustained combat.
Risk of failing the mission should be a bigger motivator than fear of dying. After all, it's possible to bring Fated back as Invested or Stitched, it's not possible to stop Nytemare's train from killing everyone on board after it's already happened. Sure, a Fated crew can set themselves up to simply outlast any peon or low minion sent after them, but if they're on a time limit, they can't afford to just withstand the assault. They have to end it or get out of it yesterday, because they have more important things to do.

These things make for stories that can be just as (if not more) memorable as that one critical success or failure.

As a counter to your opinion, I offer the opinion that the freezing cold, slowed gunslinger Fated player is not going to care so much about his or her shooting record (crit successes or failures) when it comes to memorable moments. They're going to remember when they gave up on trying to reload and started trying to beat that Zombie Swordsman down with their empty Collier Navy pistol's butt because they realized that as graceful and evasive as they were, eventually they would get hit and they had far more important things to be doing. That's a much more exciting story to me than the time they put a bullet through the eye of an Adult Nephilim, if for no other reason than because of course they did, they're a gunslinger.

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1 hour ago, spect_spidey said:

This can be applied to any situation in the game. Max out charm and no one could ever resist you. I use Defense & Willpower as my main example due to combat and death being the most prevalent ways a Fated could be removed from the game.

Also of note:

Charm maxes at 5. Any skill you'd pair it with for an effect also maxes at 5. If you have Fated that are at maxed trait(s) and maxed skill(s), they're high level Enforcer to low level Henchman in power. That is who you should be comparing them against as peers. These are Rank 9-11 NPCs who often have Trait/Skill combinations of 6-7, making the TN to avoid their attacks (or succeed in your own actions against them) somewhere between 15 and 18.

Fated will never auto-succeed against them. Even with maxed stat&skill, they need to flip or cheat in a minimum of 5-8 to deal with something that's around their power level.

To affect a high powered Master or Tyrant, you need a Red Joker, even with maxed stat + skill.

 

If your Fated crew are at Henchmen levels of power, only the most cartoonish of dumb villains* will send out peons and minions to deal with them. Serious threats to them, NPCs worth the Fated characters' time and attention, should be sending out teams of Enforcers led by a Henchman.

* Google search for "things I'd do if I became an evil overlord" -- mistakes made by villains are humorously skewered in that list, but it also serves as a nice list of things that can be used or avoided to adjust the relative intelligence of your primary villain (and thus the level of threat/challenge that they are). Cartoonishly dumb villains do the things that that list says to avoid.

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21 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Also of note:

Charm maxes at 5. Any skill you'd pair it with for an effect also maxes at 5. If you have Fated that are at maxed trait(s) and maxed skill(s), they're high level Enforcer to low level Henchman in power. That is who you should be comparing them against as peers. These are Rank 9-11 NPCs who often have Trait/Skill combinations of 6-7, making the TN to avoid their attacks (or succeed in your own actions against them) somewhere between 15 and 18.

Fated will never auto-succeed against them. Even with maxed stat&skill, they need to flip or cheat in a minimum of 5-8 to deal with something that's around their power level.

To affect a high powered Master or Tyrant, you need a Red Joker, even with maxed stat + skill.

 

If your Fated crew are at Henchmen levels of power, only the most cartoonish of dumb villains will send out peons and minions to deal with them. Serious threats to them, NPCs worth the Fated characters' time and attention, should be sending out teams of Enforcers led by a Henchman.

This statement proves what I am trying to say about the game design and using a standard AV. If a Fated focuses on Defense, Wisdom, or both you get to a point in which adventures have to go right into Enforcers or Henchman. You can no longer run adventures that build up to the big villain because the minions, etc. no longer offer any challenge. 

Look at it from a point of a campaign that doesn't contain one overall villain behind the whole campaign. Think of it more like an episodic TV series. Your players run through several one shots and get some advances which they focus on one area say Defense. Now you really can't continue with one shots that build up to a climax with the villain because the villain's minions now pose no threat to the Fated. If you adjust their AV to make their TN higher, all you are really doing is promoting that group of 5 minions to Enforcers. 

The point I am trying to make is that static AVs result in minions becoming obsolete and IMHO destroys the build up to a climax that can result from progressing through an adventure. The one shots I have read always start with a little investigation, a minion battle, an ongoing challenge, a slightly tougher battle, some more ongoing challenges, and then a battle with the main villain to resolve the adventure. Static AVs result in losing some of this build up to an adventure conclusion as the Fated get stronger. For example, a group who has dealings with the Guild I could see starting to send more than regular Guild troops to deal with them. But in the next adventure if they are dealing with an Arcanist or a Neverborn who has no previous dealings with the Group wouldn't have any reason to through Enforcer level enemies at them at the beginning of their conflict.

I will concede and agree that if you are running an interwoven campaign that concludes with the main villain being revealed as the campaign draws to a close this is fine to have the enemies become tougher throughout the campaign because the person pulling the strings behind the whole campaign is aware of the groups capabilities. But often times a new adversary may have never even heard of the group and so has no reason to pull out their big guns.

 

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58 minutes ago, spect_spidey said:

This statement proves what I am trying to say about the game design and using a standard AV. If a Fated focuses on Defense, Wisdom, or both you get to a point in which adventures have to go right into Enforcers or Henchman. You can no longer run adventures that build up to the big villain because the minions, etc. no longer offer any challenge.

Generally, no characters start with maxed stats or skills.

To increase a stat in the course of normal play (barring magic) requires completing Fate Steps. If you start with a stat of 3 (best you can start with) that means completing two Fate Steps and focusing on that stat.

This, by design, requires build up. If you're running a crew of 3-5 Fated, that's 4-6 sessions before they've completed that second Fate Step (if you're spreading out the Fate Step completion hooks). That's 4-6 Pursuit ranks gained by each Fated character. Congratulations, you're running a medium-long campaign before you reach a point where high level Enforcers are the thing you're pitting against your Fated.

58 minutes ago, spect_spidey said:

Look at it from a point of a campaign that doesn't contain one overall villain behind the whole campaign. Think of it more like an episodic TV series. Your players run through several one shots and get some advances which they focus on one area say Defense. Now you really can't continue with one shots that build up to a climax with the villain because the villain's minions now pose no threat to the Fated. If you adjust their AV to make their TN higher, all you are really doing is promoting that group of 5 minions to Enforcers.

How you design your campaign is up to you as Fatemaster.

  • Some Fatemasters will have their campaign focused on a single overall antagonist. They do this because it allows for a single, contiguous plotline and consistent look and feel. It also allows for natural, organic progression of difficulty to go with character development. This is what is commonly seen as a campaign because it has the singular focus and linked events that are defining characteristics of a campaign.
  • Some Fatemasters will take an episodic approach. If you're running one shots, then there is no room for build up. That is a flaw in the type of campaign that you're running. To work around this, each episode will have to be designed and/or adjusted for how the Fated characters have progressed since their last one shot. As Fatemaster you determine what is available for them to advance (their active Pursuit also plays a role in this), and if your players are continuously bumping one specific skill, maybe the next session should be set up to be less reliant on that one skill.
    If you're trying to run a series of one shots as a campaign without making adjustments to the adversaries in the one shots, that's not a flaw in the system.

Adjusting their Rank is not necessarily adjusting their Station. A Minion (station) with a Rank of 7 and an Enforcer (station) with a Rank of 7 will both have similar TNs for your Fated players to work against, but the Enforcer has a few more tricks up its sleeve. I suggest reviewing the Fatemaster portion of the rulebook and looking for the part that talks about how Fatemaster characters can affect Fated characters flips.

58 minutes ago, spect_spidey said:

The point I am trying to make is that static AVs result in minions becoming obsolete and IMHO destroys the build up to a climax that can result from progressing through an adventure. The one shots I have read always start with a little investigation, a minion battle, an ongoing challenge, a slightly tougher battle, some more ongoing challenges, and then a battle with the main villain to resolve the adventure. Static AVs result in losing some of this build up to an adventure conclusion as the Fated get stronger. For example, a group who has dealings with the Guild I could see starting to send more than regular Guild troops to deal with them. But in the next adventure if they are dealing with an Arcanist or a Neverborn who has no previous dealings with the Group wouldn't have any reason to through Enforcer level enemies at them at the beginning of their conflict.

See above bullet on the flaws of running a series of one shots like TV Episodes for a lede into the following:

Now, ignore the TTB mechanics for the time being. Think about another RPG system you've run games in (for example: D&D). If you ran a series of one shot adventures that are all aimed at the same level of difficulty in that system with the same group of players, those players will become effectively untouchable by even the main bad guys in those one shots. In a system like D&D your PCs get better at hitting, harder to hit, and have more hitpoints to churn through. The NPCs in those one shots are static. You have exactly the same problem in that other system that you are harping on here.

Now let's bring TTB mechanics back in. In that other system, to increase the difficulty and still use the same race/class of NPCs, I'd have to go through and make a number of changes throughout the character records of the NPCs to account for new feats/talents, more hitpoints, different acting values and different equipment, as well as different saving throws, etc. I'm not a video game engine, so it's not something I can do in less time than it takes my players to refresh their drinks; in fact, it ends up being something that I would have to devote considerable time to adjust, so much so that I might as well just use different bad guys. With TTB's mechanics I adjust one value: their Rank. With that one adjustment I make them more accurate and harder to hit. I make them better at their job and harder to mislead.

This allows me to adjust on the fly how things will go with minimal delay to the game. Those one shots are structured in a way where the first battle lets the FM gauge the combat readiness of the Fated. If it's an engaging and interesting fight, then the other encounters are where they need to be at. If the Fated are getting stomped, then the later encounters need to have their Ranks reduced slightly. If the Fated won easily, then the later encounters need to have their Ranks increased slightly.

If you're dead set on running episodic adventures, one of the things I would suggest to you is that you consider that as your Fated group does things they become more famous (or infamous). This means that other factions will have heard of them. This gives you a reason to bump the difficulty and allow for a new antagonist to have some preparation for the current party. This creates a reason to have the Fated run into an Enforcer or two earlier on.

Otherwise, I would strongly recommend that you look at how you're running your campaign. Many one shots are meant to be run purely as one shots, and not as episodes in a campaign. Others are all oriented at roughly the same level of challenge in order to offer different flavors of adventures for groups of similar power levels.  These offer hooks for developing your own campaigns, or simply an interesting and engaging way to spend a weekend with gaming buddies. That's why they're one shots. They're not designed to grow with Fated characters (unlike a campaign). So the recommendation is that instead of running the one shot straight out of the book, you account for the power level of your crew and adjust what they run into within the adventure to match where they are at now.

Use something to link things together (other than the fact it's the same group of Fated), otherwise it's not really a campaign so much as a collection of random adventures.

After all, you don't send the party of four level 10 characters down into the basement to clear out a rat nest to prove their mettle, then send them to clear a goblin camp. That's boring for the players and well beneath their characters' level. Those rats and goblins are effectively obsolete. If I don't want to spend my Thursday and Friday evening adjusting the rat stats and advancing the goblin levels and giving them class feats to make them pose a real threat to the group, then I need to replace them with bad guys of more appropriate difficulty. That is the reality of a game in which player characters gain power.

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There are two reasons I like that the Fatemaster doesn't flip.

1) It speeds things up.  Not a lot, but enough.

2) It really emphasizes that that fated are the ones in control of their destinies.  The fated didn't hit because the enemy got a low number, the fated hit because they flipped high.  If a fated gets his/her butt kicked, it's no one's fault but their own.

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2 hours ago, DarkSpade said:

There are two reasons I like that the Fatemaster doesn't flip.

1) It speeds things up.  Not a lot, but enough.

2) It really emphasizes that that fated are the ones in control of their destinies.  The fated didn't hit because the enemy got a low number, the fated hit because they flipped high.  If a fated gets his/her butt kicked, it's no one's fault but their own.

This is a nice way to look at it.

 

More constructively, @spect_spidey, here is an Episodic campaign adjustment idea:

  • Early campaign, Fated are relatively unknown. Maybe they were at the Crossroads, maybe they just escorted some people from the Guild Train Depot to Malifaux City. Whatever the case, they've been paid and there's a handful of people who at least recognize them. They end up in a Contract Town, and stuff hits the fan. The primary antagonist are Neverborn. On a good run through, the town survives and recovers. On a bad run through, the town is dying and eventually becomes a ghost town. On a critical failure, the town is destroyed. Any of these cases creates a legacy or reputation for the Fated. News and rumors about the whole thing end up making it back to Malifaux City.
  • Next session after that, the Fated are approached to link up with a mercenary outfit that's investigating some ruins. Now they're building up more reputation. With only 1-2 previous sessions under their belt, the Fated have a few more Pursuit-related tricks, but their stats aren't putting them out of the league that the episode is set for.
  • Later on in the campaign there's an episode where they take on a Haunted House and come out alive, albeit a little shaken. I'm referencing a tougher Penny Dreadful here, and if the Fated get through it they're definitely ready to handle tougher opponents; they're a lot harder to threaten with the basic Minion encounter now.
  • The one shot you're planning for the next session is going to involve the Guild attempting to arrest the Fated in order to blackmail them into doing something specific. At this point, the crew has a bit of a reputation, and one or more of the Fated has become strong enough where Peons of any Rank present zero threat and even Minion (5) Fatemaster characters aren't really threatening. So it won't really work to send some lowly Guild Guards to do the arrest. Game mechanics-wise they're not enough of a threat to actually arrest the Fated without railroading your players.

With the Fated having a reputation from their previous episodes, the Guild will have some idea that the group is better equipped, trained, and skilled than the usual people they try to arrest and conscript into doing their dirty work. This provides your story justification for the Guild sending a group of Sergeants with a specialist Officer to arrest them, instead of a single Sergeant with a group of Guardsman. This change is both a Rank and Station change over what the one shot might call for in the first place, but it's necessary to keep the threat level up high enough to challenge your players.

One way you can help underscore the power level is by calling for a resisting challenge (such as Centering versus Intimidation). Since all TNs are transparent, when the TN of 12/13 is announced on the challenge, it should help drive home that the Guild representatives arresting them are not raw recruits, but someone higher up the food chain.
The Guild's representatives don't know anything specific about the group, they've never seen them in action. They only know what they've heard through rumors, rumors based off of at least three episodes, and that they're expected to bring the Fated to a secure location alive.
So, between those two bits of information, if the Fated resist arrest and fight back, you've shown them that the encounter is higher powered than the previous and you've got a hook to not kill them outright (first encounter is gauging where they are at). Some outcomes to plan for to advance the story of the episode (if they're not already listed in the one shot):

  • The Fated comply and go along peacefully. Proceed to the Act that involves blackmailing the Fated into conducting a mission for the Guild. They come in under their own power and are greeted in a cordial and respectful manner. Advance pay and additional help might be volunteered.
  • The Fated resist arrest and lose.  Proceed to the Act that involves blackmailing the Fated into conduction a mission for the Guild. They are dragged in and are greeted as a necessary nuisance. Incentives for being better behaved are offered on conclusion of the mission, but various social challenges may be required to get enough information to not be going in blind.
  • The Fated resist arrest and win without killing the Guild reps. This one requires more prep work, as you'll end up needing an additional scene in the current act where less hostile measures are used in approaching the Fated, only now when you get to the Act that involves the blackmailing, there's an actual crime in there as well. Incentives as above, but informational help might be volunteered due to the party's obvious restraint in resisting arrest.
  • The Fated resist arrest and win, killing the Guild reps. This one requires the most prep work as it can potentially derail the entire one shot. Similar to the previous scenario, you'll need an additional scene to try and steer the Fated back onto the storyline. Expect the Guild to treat them as hostiles unless they agree to conduct the mission in exchange for amnesty. No incentives, bonuses, advance pay would be offered, and any additional help will likely involve the same kind of social challenges that resisting and losing would require.

None of this involves trying to make a freshly recruited Guild Guard squad a threat to a veteran Fated crew who has several clandestine operations under their belt. Instead it tips the hat to the players, acknowledging that the Fated crew is tougher and more respected than the usual riffraff that the Guild might press into deniable operations. It also helps you as the Fatemaster drive the story onward. If the goal is to complete a one shot within a session or two and you're following pre-built one shots like the Penny Dreadfuls, you need to be able to at least keep the group moving through the planned Episode. In other systems that might involve forced/fudged die rolls (such as GM fiat to ignore a critical failure on something that needed to happen to advance the story), in a system where nothing Fatemaster does is randomized advancement of the episode's story only relies on the characters agreeing to bite one of the many hooks the Fatemaster dangles (which is one of the ways in which it speeds things up).

Which is where Fated players can adopt @DarkSpade's approach with #2 (quoted at beginning, twisted a bit here): the Fated are the ones who influence their own Fate through the story. Their antagonists are consistent, neither lucky in defeating the Fated or unlucky in being defeated. It was the Fated character's preparation, luck, and skill that determined the outcome.

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I was going to throw out a long post crunching numbers and pointing out character progression but spooky_squirrel really hit most of what I was going to say in his posts.  So I will hit one set of key points I think every Fatemaster should keep in mind and then try a different approach.

A tool at the Fatemaster's disposal that can help in cases like this is the Focus action.  If you really want to try and put pressure on a Fated in combat then consider using a Focus action rather than attacking twice.  Here is my reasoning.  If you attack a player that is not defensive or similar, twice they are going to flip two cards.  Both flips can be cheated and each one deals with its own results.  So if they flip a 13 and 1, the 13 will dodge the attack and the 1 they can cheat.  If you focus, they still flip two cards but they have to use the lower one.  This gives you two chances to get those low cards you need and denies them the ability to fix the bad result with their Twist hand.  In addition if you do hit you have a better chance of doing better than weak damage and putting that much more pressure on them.  With Enforcers or higher this becomes even nastier if you want as they can use Fate Points to get a positive to their flips which using the system means the players get a negative.  It can be even worse if the Enforcer also focuses so the player is at Double Negative to their defense.  An single Enforcer with several minions can be nasty this way as the Fated suddenly feel like time might be against them *Every turn the enemy is still standing is another chance to flip two cards and see if they take damage*.  The NPC can even use things like Impose to limit the Fated's offense.  For example a pair of Rank 5 minions are attacking a Df6 Fated while a Rank 7 Enforcer is close by but not in combat.  The Enforcer is going to activate before the minions likely and he can Focus and Impose for his activation.  Impose is resisted by Centering so if they took high Tenacity or Centering but not both they are going to be at a disadvantage *a 3 or 4 vs a 11 or 12* and with the Focus they are at a negative, likely going to fail.  Now unless that character attacks the Enforcer they are at a negative to attack the two minions doing focus attacks at him.  So he either has to get to the Enforcer while the minions are being a problem, eating AP and disengaging strikes, or they have to focus themselves and attack the minions.  But if they do that, they are only getting 1 attack a turn and even with the focus it might well take 2 hits to take out each minion.  Any misses will hurt as that is a whole other turn of being attacked and risking being hit.  The Fated could also discard a card and go defensive +1 to counter the Focus but that means he is not able to focus either and is taking attacks at a negative.  He also burned a resource *card from the hand to go defensive* that can run out.

 

Now how about a scenario to highlight how you can give 4 Fated characters a memorable session with the sense that they are actually at risk with a handful of minions and a single enforcer.

The Fated are at the Ten Peaks needing to go up to a certain cave to perform a ritual to insure a hostile spirit of a defeated foe cannot return.  Perhaps the foe was a cannibal that performed a ritual up in that cave and now even if defeated his spirit will keep coming back till the magic is broken.  Seeing as none of the Fated are from the region they know just heading up the mountain will be rough as none know the route.  So they approach the locals and hire a guide.  The guide was hesitant to take up some greenhorns till they offer him scrip and show him they are well armed.  Accepting the Guide informs them it will take two day hard march to reach the valley they are looking for.  He tells them to get eight days worth of supplies for each person from the store and he would get his own.  Gathering what they need the Fated set off.

AS they go the Guide looks bothered as they reach a steep but manage slope.  Shaking his head the Guide informs the Players "We go around, I am not going up that."  Of course they will ask how much time they will lose and the guide will inform them he could do it in half an hour.  It does not sound like much so the Fated likely accept it as they can either leave their guide or follow his path.  Marching on at the Guide's pace they keep going.  Every so often the Guide looks about and shakes his head.  He informs the Fated at a little past midday they will not be able to make it to the shack he wanted to use to camp that night as he said they did not make good enough time.  Instead he takes them to a cave, which I am sure the Fated check over very carefully but it is all legit and the party hunkers down there for the night.  in the morning the Guide sets them off again saying that they should reach the shack before noon and they can have lunch there out of the weather and should be able to light a fire for a while.

Reaching the Shack the guide stops as he notices the door is open.  He lets the Fated, with all their weapons take a peek in but there is no one inside but with the door open there is a layer of snow in it.  The guide says he will get the wood that should be around back and tells the Fated to try and shove as much snow as they can out.  At this point the Fatemaster has them all take a Notice challenge as they are shoveling the snow out.  Regardless of the Result Dramatic time starts as the snow forms together and solidifies into a trio of Ice Gamin *Rank 5 minions*.  Now the Fated are trapped in a close range fight in a shack, likely they did not have their weapons drawn either as they were shoveling snow with their hands.  To top it off anyone who failed their Notice challenge does not get to activate on the first turn.  The Gamin use Focus attacks and try to team up on a single fated rather than splitting their attack.

At which point the Fated have the problem that each one they kill explodes meaning most of them should be hit by at least 2 if they are killed.  Disengaging and trying to leave the Shack is an option but that is multiple disengaging attempts and it is not like the Ice Gamin are going to stay in the shack.  Any that where hit by the initial attacks of the Ice Gamin have to worry about the explosions even more.  Also they might only have 5-7 wds so taking 4-6 is rough.  Armor would help but that would reduce their defense making them easier to hit.  Now this is also where you give them credit for being creative.  For example one Fated might decide he can handle one of the Ice Gamin alone and ask if he can do a test of some sort to grab the Ice Gamin and haul him out of the shack and thus away from the wounded ally.  Give them a Athletic test and make it TN 9 (5 for Rank + Def 4), if you want you can even throw a +2 on it if they are engaged with another Gamin as a distraction or interference *so TN 11*.  If they succeed they manage to pick up the Gamin and are holding it and have to spend the AP to leave the Shack.  AT this point the players will have the memory of the ambush, the threat of attack and possible of a player coming up with a creative solution.

In either case the fight will likely not last more than 4 rounds if the players are powerful but you can have the Guide come around on turn 4 armed and ready but hesitate to rush into combat with Gamin *he knows they blow up*.  So once the fight is done the guide informs the Fated that this has to be the work of the Cult of December.  He believes that they set up the trap to catch anyone intruding on their mountain.  He also informs you that the spare firewood is gone.  So the Fated have the choice to soldier on after treating their wounds, trying to make a fire with what they have, or so such.  In either case the Guide will give them time to do what they want before asking them if they want to continue.  He says they will not be able to reach the valley and cave they seek today but he knows of another cave they can use to spend the night if they press on.  If not they have to stay in a damaged shack with no extra firewood.

Sadly it will take longer than the Guide said to reach this cave and the sun will go down and snow starts falling.  He will keep saying they are close and eventually break from the group a bit as he take s a look.  At which point his lantern goes dark and he vanishes in the night.  If the Fate try to see what happened all they find are tracks rushing off.  If they track him they will find he is easily outpacing them as he is unimpeded thus travels faster in the severe terrain and does not need a light to lead him.  The Fated will realize they need to hunker down.  Ongoing challenge time from Into the Steam for blizzard perhaps as the Fated have to find shelter or make it.  There is a cave nearby if they can find it.  Rough time if some of them are not experienced and might suffer damage from Frostbite.

So the fated managed to survive the night by either making a snow hut or finding that cave the Guide mentioned.  Still they are snowed in by the morning and have to dig their way out.  Likely did not sleep to well unless they found a way to get warm *or do not care about warmth*.  Still morning, time to dig their way out.  Upon exiting I am sure they had to use their hands to do it but once out I would not be surprised if some of them draw weapons as... well they are players, they ALWAYS go for their weapons.  At which point, Notice checks!  What is the TN you say?  Well the December Acolytes are Rank 6 minions, Stealth 2 and Cunning 2, so at least TN 10, but they are wearing good camouflage and had time to work themselves in, so add a +2 or +4.  Personally I would go with a +4 myself.  Partially because there is a Rank 7 Enforcer Acolyte leading the two.  Each is 12" away from the Fated so within range of their Harpoons.  If no Fated pass then the Acolytes get a whole turn thanks to From the Shadows.  If some of the Fated pass those that Fail don't get to act on the first turn.  In either case, passing the notice test does not mean they necessarily spot the Acolytes, it merely means they realize they are not alone and there might be danger.  The Acolytes also have soft cover till they reveal themselves. 

Either case the Fated are unlikely to be entirely ready and when the Acolytes go they each Focus and take their shots.  Oddly they know quite a bit about the players and which ones are already wounded and which ones are more dangerous *almost like they watched the previous fight or perhaps had someone rat the Fated out*.  They will make the best choice and likely concentrate their fire on either the biggest threat or the weakest link.  They are unlikely to shoot at anyone that has a positive to defense *such as noticed and went defensive because they could not see the threat*.  The Harpoons will not be Tethered so no pulling in the target, they are not feasting yet, this is part of the hunt.  The target will likely take some nasty damage as he will have two shooting at 11 and one at 12.  More so the Enforcer will use a Fated point to insure the Fated has an additional Negative against his shot.  What more, the Enforcer's Harpoon is poisoned using the poison from Under Quarantine.  It is the Poison +3 and Neurotoxin condition.  Now that Fated is likely slow for a few turns as well thanks to the poison on top of the Harpoon shots and poison damage.  Now if things look bad for the three Acolytes, which it might be if the Fated are good fighters and anger, the Enforcer will spend his other Fated Point to gain an Extra AP.  Using this AP he will activate the trap they had set outside the Fated's dwelling that summons at least a pair of Ice Gamin right on top or almost right on top of the Fated.  He might wait till the second turn depending on where they are on the initiative or how many guns are drawn by the Fated and whether he could summon the gamin in combat.  Either case when their turns come around each one turns and flees across the snow.  As they are already 12" away, know the terrain, and Unimpeded it will be hard for the Fated to catch them and likely they will be out of range or LOS in a few turns.  One of the Fated might have unimpeded and could give chase but that would risk isolating them against the three hunters alone for several turns and the acolytes might be willing to let one of their numbers go down to escape.  Either way this leaves the Fated wounded, tired, and possible halfway lost on a hostile mountain with who knows what ambushes still waiting.

Of course they likely suspect NOW that the Guide betrayed them, and will question why they did not get to Scrutiny him when he lied to them but you can point out he Never lied or even gave half truths.  He said it was two days hard march to reach the valley, he just never said he was taking that pace *went slower on purpose*.  He never said he avoided that slope or route because it was dangerous, just that he was going this way instead.  The Shack was indeed where he said it was and the wood was suppose to be outback, the Cult really did take it.  And the Cave he mentioned really was there, he just left them once he could.  Why?  Because that is what the Cult pays him to do and he gets pickings from the people's belonging as well.  All he has to do is tell them all he got to observe after he breaks away so the Acolytes can know how to handle the Fated.

Now that the fatemaster can weave the story further by the Fated's choices.  They want to track down the Guide and get him, maybe threaten him to show them the way proper.  Sure he is likely lurking nearby waiting for the Cult to get done with you so he can pick his rewards.  Want to press on and reach that valley before you are attacked again, ongoing challenge time.  Want to turn around go back down the mountain and get a better guide... that is always an option.  But no matter what the players likely feel they have took some lickings and felt some level of threat from what ended up being only 5 Ice Gamin, 2 minion Acolytes, one Enforcer Acolyte, and the natural terrain.  8 Total enemy models against 4 Fated.  Oh and a mountain and treacherous guide.

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Thank you @EnternalVoid for describing in more detail the tools I was hinting at. This covers the tools that are built into the system that can make things much more challenging (and really, people wondering about how things like magic can be balanced need to look at stuff like this on top of counterspelling). Part of the reason I left the cheat fate mechanic out of the probability crunching was so that I wouldn't have to go into detail on things like Minions+ spending their allocated Fate point(s) or using Focus or Defensive tactical actions to cover all the bases.

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Also, something of note with the narrative @EnternalVoid took the time to draw up:

Throughout it are opportunities for Fated characters of various backgrounds to make observations. A city-dwelling Fated might not notice that they're not travelling at a hard march, but both the M&SU Overseer and the Condor Rails Drudge will have reason to--they know what someone working hard looks like. A Fated criminal might have reason to scrutinize the guide, after all, they themselves may have been a bandit that had made use of the old "pretend to be a guide, lead them to an ambush" trick themselves. A mercenary, pioneer, or academic might ask to see their planned route on a map, then notice that they're taking a strange route. The mercenary might even realize that there's several areas that someone could set up an ambush in.

Which combined with the other skill checks involved means that the epilogue may feature Fated characters picking up skills that aren't immediately useful in combat flips--because it wasn't the combat alone that hurt them badly, it was the terrain, the betrayal, the weather, and the failure to realize they were being stalked by members of a cannibal cult. Hell, if they've never been to the Ten Peaks before, this was probably their first time dealing with the Cult and Ice Gamin--they might end up spending their single earned skill rank on something that would help them be better prepared for running into strange denizens. Whichever Fated completed a Fate Step has motive to not min-max for a specific kind of encounter, because they just got soundly flogged, and they're going to be dropping that trait increase into something that'll shore up one of their weak areas.

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