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So about that Ice Golem


Jordon

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So it's no secret that the Ice Golem has been consistently among the worst model in our faction basically since M2E launched. It's been that way and has only gotten worst as other models have come out to fill a similar yet better role than this model. Within our own faction we have the rail golem, joss and the emissary who in my opinion are just outright better. Other factions have Izamu, obsidian statue, cyclops and list goes on and on. It also doesn't help that with each wave comes more and more armor ignoring options which makes this model laughably easy to kill.

It's currently not even remotely worth a hire and even as a summon, Df2 and 6Wds is still a death warrant for this model but at least you can potentially get it in a decent spot before it dies.

Basically I was curious how people feel about this model now that it can be summoned? It's not easy to pull off with it requiring a high tome similar to Ramos' three spider summon. I only see it happening maybe once or twice a game at most. Certainly it helps in giving some use to the Golem, but does it actually excuse how bad it actually is? Can we expect a buff for this model in the future without having it be OP due to the summon?

In my opinion it's still ranked as the top 3 worst models in arcanists and even as a summon I'm still hopeful for an errata to help bring this guy back in line.

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14 minutes ago, Joachim said:

The first thing that I'm thinking, who are the other sucky two?

Well #1 worst model for me is hands down Mouse. It's just all around awful on all fronts (except model wise). He's too expensive, insignificant peon, a heal that barely ever works and his lash pulls models to him from which totally shuts him down. Lastly, he barely does anything for Ironsides that she can't get from another model that's better.

16 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Probably Essence of Power and Gunsmiths (if we don't count master-specific totems).

Gunsmiths are not great but at least they work. If they were 6ss I wouldn't have any problems with them. Yeah the essence is not great and just can't compete with the masters that it would be half decent with.

Back to my point. I like the golem and what it does - it's just not good at it. It's way too slow and Df2 is just the worst and armor +2 is not enough of a compensation as anything that targets it will hit it - mostly with strait flips.

Heck the Rail Golem is every bit as killy, much more mobile and has armour +2 and TWICE the Df of the Ice Golem and we still barely ever see that model.

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1 hour ago, Jordon said:

Well #1 worst model for me is hands down Mouse. It's just all around awful on all fronts (except model wise). He's too expensive, insignificant peon, a heal that barely ever works and his lash pulls models to him from which totally shuts him down. Lastly, he barely does anything for Ironsides that she can't get from another model that's better.

Gunsmiths are not great but at least they work. If they were 6ss I wouldn't have any problems with them. Yeah the essence is not great and just can't compete with the masters that it would be half decent with.

Back to my point. I like the golem and what it does - it's just not good at it. It's way too slow and Df2 is just the worst and armor +2 is not enough of a compensation as anything that targets it will hit it - mostly with strait flips.

Heck the Rail Golem is every bit as killy, much more mobile and has armour +2 and TWICE the Df of the Ice Golem and we still barely ever see that model.

I agree, df2 hurts him too much. What makes him unique thoigh is the toss ability to get gamin upfield. 

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My issue with toss is that by spending AP doing that your spending even longer to get into the action. Having my 10ss model not see melee until turn 3 or 4 (and in all likelihood, half killed or more) doesn't feel like a good investment. We can get access cheaper pushes without having to sideline our heavy hitters. Besides we have acolytes who can start the game basically where you need them to be anyway.

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Just now, Thottbot said:

but if you have any kind of burn on enemies (either from mages or other things) they are very good? i mean, tripple flip for attack? that's amazing 

After that amount of set up I'd still probably prefer a single focused 2/4/6, slow after succeeding and opponent discards a card shot than two Gunsmith ones. Gunsmiths at their best (with fast and burning set up) are probably better than December Acolytes outside of Raspy crews, but that set up costs you.

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7 minutes ago, Jinn said:

After that amount of set up I'd still probably prefer a single focused 2/4/6, slow after succeeding and opponent discards a card shot than two Gunsmith ones. Gunsmiths at their best (with fast and burning set up) are probably better than December Acolytes outside of Raspy crews, but that set up costs you.

they don't really need set up, I run one fire gamin and one gunsmith in my Ramos list and that's really enough, the gamin is a kind of either you kill it and I get spiders from this position or you get burning.

powered by the flame is also very good with this list of Ramos if you don't want to use fire gamin :)

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3 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Because they aren't December Acolytes.

That's what it ends up amounting to. Both are 7 stones, both have shooting roles. One does more control work early in the game (Acolyte) and can start the game close enough to focus and shoot, handing out Slow on a success on Turn 1 against something important. The other can cycle cards and get some interesting effects from their abilities, but require more set up and tend to kick in later in the game.
When you're playing a game where the first blood is drawn end of Turn 1 or beginning of Turn 2, anything that is counting on being around on Turn 3 is less reliable than things that start their work at the top of Turn 1. If you're playing against something less aggressive, then Gunsmiths bring a set of tools that can be very useful to hitting and erasing specific targets. The best work for value I've gotten out of them is master/henchman hunting off of the trigger that blocks soulstone prevention of damage (going for the master kill in Turn 3), but that's not as universally useful as handing out slow to a beater in Turn 1.

With Ironsides' bump, you might see Gunsmiths appearing in her crews more (HPM doesn't rely on your enemy being burning). The funny thing is is that they aren't bad; there are players from other factions that resent the fact that we have models like the Gunsmiths and they're considered "bad" in various competitive groups.

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3 hours ago, Jordon said:

Well #1 worst model for me is hands down Mouse. It's just all around awful on all fronts (except model wise). He's too expensive, insignificant peon, a heal that barely ever works and his lash pulls models to him from which totally shuts him down. Lastly, he barely does anything for Ironsides that she can't get from another model that's better.

The poor little fella doesn't even have a close attack to keep models he pulls to him from just walking off.

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3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The poor little fella doesn't even have a close attack to keep models he pulls to him from just walking off.

Good point. I've never really had that come up as most models simply kick his teeth in as soon as he drags them in. He honestly feels like a broken model with all his anti synergy. The Ice Golem at least works, just not well.

Ice Golem is a definitely #2 worst in my mind though

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2 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Good point. I've never really had that come up as most models simply kick his teeth in as soon as he drags them in.

I realized it when I pulled a model out of scoring position in Guard the Stash with him and they just ended up walking away from him to get back into position.  

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3 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Good point. I've never really had that come up as most models simply kick his teeth in as soon as he drags them in. He honestly feels like a broken model with all his anti synergy. The Ice Golem at least works, just not well.

Ice Golem is a definitely #2 worst in my mind though

I've had him draw stuff into and chain activate a beater like Johan. That's not exactly useless. He has some oddball stuff about him at a glance, but he provides another control vector that can be used on friendlies to pull them up (after he's been pulled up 6" by Ironsides) and potentially put them into HPM state (min damage 1 won't beat the Arcane Shielding of the Oxfordians), or to pull something that's already activated out of position.

If he spends his 2 AP pulling an enemy 8" into him and pulling Johan 8" into him (damaging Johan to give the Relic Hammer wielding beater HPM as well as his own built in working with friends benefit for being near a friendly M&SU model), in order to chain activate Johan (who then flurries), I think that's AP well spent.

With the Ice Golem being summonable, it's liability is lessened. Rasputina could potentially put one of these (for a stone and a card) somewhere distracting. Sure, it's going to die and die horribly, but if you hire/summon with that in mind it won't be a surprise. It might even help you get some VP or an activation edge if the circumstances are good for it--but that's the advantage of having the choice to summon it. If the scenario calls for it, you bring it in. Otherwise, you don't. It's not unlike the University Transmortis Students under a master like Molly: she summons in the one(s) that will work for the situation, instead of hiring and hoping.

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13 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

I've had him draw stuff into and chain activate a beater like Johan. That's not exactly useless. He has some oddball stuff about him at a glance, but he provides another control vector that can be used on friendlies to pull them up (after he's been pulled up 6" by Ironsides) and potentially put them into HPM state (min damage 1 won't beat the Arcane Shielding of the Oxfordians), or to pull something that's already activated out of position.

If he spends his 2 AP pulling an enemy 8" into him and pulling Johan 8" into him (damaging Johan to give the Relic Hammer wielding beater HPM as well as his own built in working with friends benefit for being near a friendly M&SU model), in order to chain activate Johan (who then flurries), I think that's AP well spent.

It just feels so gimmicky to me. For 1 more stone I can hire a performer who can pull models way easier (no projectile, higher stat and can actually lock down models) and with some great triggers. It's not as far as Mouse's drag but the range is longer. Yeah you wont get that 1 damage but for everything else you are getting (significant, DMM, precious, manipulative, an actual melee attack, anti scheme ability), I see no reason to ever take Mouse.

13 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

With the Ice Golem being summonable, it's liability is lessened. Rasputina could potentially put one of these (for a stone and a card) somewhere distracting. Sure, it's going to die and die horribly, but if you hire/summon with that in mind it won't be a surprise. It might even help you get some VP or an activation edge if the circumstances are good for it--but that's the advantage of having the choice to summon it. If the scenario calls for it, you bring it in. Otherwise, you don't. It's not unlike the University Transmortis Students under a master like Molly: she summons in the one(s) that will work for the situation, instead of hiring and hoping.

I agree. I just hope that there is also a reason to actually hire this model at some point and that it's not just relegated to a summon model only.

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I've done some theory crafting about taking the Ice Golem with Sandeep and making him Incorporeal. Combining that with the Golem using Sandeep's 6" place or his drag and heal, I think there may be some utility there. Considering you can now summon Banasuva much more easily, it's something I think will be fun to try. The Golem's bash attack always seems to be such a suprise to my opponents, I think Sandeep is able to cover some of the Golem's weaknesses.

I have to admit I was bummed when I re-read the Raspy summon upgrade and realized that the Golem and Snowstorm cant use the 0 action heal. It's only the blessed, silent ones, acolytes, and dancers. Yet another opportunity to improve the Golem lost

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1 minute ago, Nick86 said:

I've done some theory crafting about taking the Ice Golem with Sandeep and making him Incorporeal. Combining that with the Golem using Sandeep's 6" place or his drag and heal, I think there may be some utility there. Considering you can now summon Banasuva much more easily, it's something I think will be fun to try. The Golem's bash attack always seems to be such a suprise to my opponents, I think Sandeep is able to cover some of the Golem's weaknesses.

Sandeep can make any model better. So while I do think if your willing to invest so much into making the golem viable you can succeed in covering some of his weaknesses. However why not just take Joss and invest in him? You'll end up getting better results with a better model.

Besides Incorporeal doesn't exactly fix the problem. The problem is Df2 and just getting pinged to death by anything that even looks at you. Even most 4ss models can make a significant dent in this model when focused upon.

The only thing I've seen to actually greatly boost the golem was a metal gamin. Unfortunately with the way protection of metal works you'll never get it to work for long. It has to be one of the most frustrating abilities and I've almost never gotten it to work outside of Raspy who simply sits there in one spot for the entire game.

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A personal upgrade would be a good way to buff him to be playable without making summoning him too strong. Not sure what the best thing to give him would be though. More df or wk is obvious, a healing 0 action could be cool, or a push 0 instead of a wk increase. Ice mirror while engaged maybe, it steps on the toes of the emissary a bit, but they do a few different things. A pulse attack of some kind where it's just like him smashing the ground to do either AoE dmg, wk duel for slow (or - wk to go along with his attack trigger).

Or what about just add an ability "This model can take an imbued protection upgrade for 0SS." Helps the defense problem, lets imbued protection get used a bit more, easier, easy to remember without getting the reprinted card.

There's options that I don't think would make him OP (I'm not completely sure he'd be worth running at 8SS atm, def not 9 though, so there's definitely wiggle room there.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, BFOmega said:

A personal upgrade would be a good way to buff him to be playable without making summoning him too strong. Not sure what the best thing to give him would be though. More df or wk is obvious, a healing 0 action could be cool, or a push 0 instead of a wk increase. Ice mirror while engaged maybe, it steps on the toes of the emissary a bit, but they do a few different things. A pulse attack of some kind where it's just like him smashing the ground to do either AoE dmg, wk duel for slow (or - wk to go along with his attack trigger).

There's options that I don't think would make him OP (I'm not completely sure he'd be worth running at 8SS atm, def not 9 though, so there's definitely wiggle room there.

Even just a strait up decrease in cost would be worth looking into. The summon is a set TN so you could make the golem 4ss and it wouldn't have any bearing on Raspy's summon. I do agree though that in it's current state he'd need to drop 2-3 stones for me to even consider

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