Wave 5 Redefining Our Meta

[Mxbedlam]

So we've had a few weeks to gloss over the new upgrades and models, play a couple games and really refocus on who stands out where. Pre Wave 5 our top 3 were Sandeep, Marcus and Ramos. With Ironsides, Kaeris, Colette, Raspy and Mei sort of vying for the middle ground, it was contestable depending on local metas who was top dog in the almost T1 category. After the dust of Wave 5 clears, are we still looking at the same tiers? Are the top 3 still top 3? Has the second tier settled into a definite 2nd and 3rd tier? Has anyone shifted down to make room for someone else? Or does everything pretty much wash out the same? 

[dancater]

Difficult to say with certainty as I have not played enough with all the masters but that I guess is part of the question and the fun.

I'm taking the angle on both competitiveness and crew theme.

Top:

• Sandeep is still the toolbox, book 5 did not much for him as a master but he did score an interesting henchman.  Overall as flexible as he ever was, what weakening has happened is more because competition, both in-faction and out, has improved than he has got worse.
• Marcus got a solid boost, he has a new upgrade that adds another niche but valid play style, his crew is simply getting more flexible and adaptable.  Also some interesting new Beast options mean that the Professor of the Wild is a book 5 winner.  Also poison is a thing.
• Ironsides is jumping in here as her upgrades have finally made her the tar-pit damage dealer that it looked like she was meant to be but never quite was, not as flexible as the others but what she does she does well and its a almost invaluable ability, to get in the middle and disrupt.  Not much huge crew wise I guess but M&SU was already pretty solid with great options although the Medical Automaton looks really intriguing.

The Seconds:

• Ramos got a sideways option more than a boost, I think his upgrades were great but competition wise they provide an option more than a huge boost or new vector.  Basically I still see Ramos as the master-mass-summoner and it appears GG 2018 will move towards tempering the power of summoning somewhat.  Not a huge extra options crew wise.
• Rapsy got interesting upgrades which really add character and options but in all honestly competitively I see little huge change, might surprise a few folks but top tier its still mostly ice blasting, she is to slow without a charge to really melee it up and the summons while interesting is not really a big enough thing to legitimately turn her into a summoning master. Also no Frozen Heart, although lets face facts what FH models exist are already mostly really good.
• Kaeris got a really great boost and has I think jumped forwards, maybe even more that I think, like her Union sister Toni she is slowly looking like the master on the table that I imagined her to be reading the fluff and in concept.  Still she is more the dink and dunk master than the brawler and honestly I think the close games are more often won while bashing heads in the middle of the chaos.  Crew wise I did not see anything Arcanist pyromaniac.

The good but struggling 

• Colette between her recent (justified) nerf and the interesting but sideways grade upgrades the Mistress of the Star is solid but lacks power and durability in the face of recent book 4 and 5 options that opponents received.  Basically I think Colette is as good as she always was but as the meta creeps forward she is seeing more hard counters to her tricks and the steady progress of masters who can do the scheme thing as well as her or otherwise prevent some of her crews tactica.  Her book 5 upgrades added flare but not flame, and no Showgirls on the book 5 playbill.
• Mei is interesting, her upgrades looked to add to her schtick and give her much the same character = table that notably Toni and Kaeris got, but.... resource intensive for dubious damage and mobility return, other Arcanist masters do everything Mei does and provide a little extra on top.  She still has her niche and is still solid and can take most games but if I wanted to reliably compete than not my first or second choice.  Foundry got noting and generally book 5 felt underwhelming for the Lady of Rails.   

[Jordon]

Well personally I feel like GG2018 will have a much larger impact on the master ranking once it goes live. However just looking at the boost all the masters received across all the factions, I feel it's going to take a while before the dust settles and we find out who's on top.

One thing is for certain is that the gap between the best and the worst has for the most part been shortened. With so many low tier masters getting better, it'll have a direct impact on our faction as will ours on others. It feels like the game got more competitive than ever before.

Just a gut reaction but I still feel like Sandeep, Marcus, and Ramos are still on top. While they never got the "boost" of other masters. They still got some viable tools and more options is always good. They haven't really changed their play style so much with maybe Ramos getting the best of the three.

With Ramos, these upgrades give him some good options outside of his summoning (he's can be a pretty lethal shooter now). It opens him up as a summoner/damage dealer and/or summoner board control with a bit of anti scheme. He's still a summoner and that has not changed but his options for his other AP has increased and that can only help him. I feel like both upgrades are competent and you'll see them from time to time.

Marcus got a viable poison build but i'm not sure it's necessary a better option for him. His new limited is nice if you play him more of a support oriented build but it's probably still not his most competitive build. Overall I feel like his new upgrades are more fun than competitive. He's still top tier though

Sandeep likewise has a more aggressive build with an emphasis on  getting Banasuva out easier and more frequently. However it's at a cost of his summoning upgrade which in reality is probably the more competitive option and opens him up as a great tool box. Banasuva is great but it's not really what makes Sandeep great and focusing on him is super fun but cuts down on his options big time. His other upgrade is nice and I feel like there is a lot to chew through before figuring it out so I can't say for certain if your going to see it all the time or not. 90% of the time Sandeep will have better uses for his AP but there are a few models and options that seem like they can be quite good.

Of the rest of the masters. There is no question that Ironsides got the biggest boost. How far up she got boosted remains to be seen but I'm not sure she's "top tier" yet. However she now has a very clear direction in her playstyle and both her durability and offense got a pretty huge boost. I feel like she's now the best of the reaming masters but doesn't quite crack the top three. I am willing to be wrong on that though and I do think she's excellent now.

Kaeris is probably the next biggest winner of the lower tier as she got two solid upgrades. Flaming Angel up her burning game huge as she doesn't need to spend as much AP setting up burning anymore. It also gives her a crazy good mobility option to allow her to play more aggressively, defensively or to position her to make the most of her auras. I don't see any reason not to always take this upgrade. As for Heat Wave, I think it's just another tool to expand her play style. She can scheme, she can support and not she can debuff. It's a really good debuff as it not only affects their defense but also their offense and abilities. Getting a -3 to flips is no joke. I do feel like Kaeris is in a much better spot than she was before but it's not quite as game changing as Ironsides.

Raspy got a summon and some melee options. Both are great but neither will ultimately change how she's played. She's still a ranged damage dealer. It's just that now she doesn't have quite as much of an Achilles heal with being engaged. However dealing with her melee is probably still a better option than dealing with her ranged attack. Her summoning is interesting and I think you'll see it most of the time, but it doesn't really make her a summoner. It's just a nice option to keep you up on activation's when you start to run low. Again I feel like she got a boost but not significant enough to shift her meta placement. 

Mei is in a similar place. Her ability to use any trigger on any attack likely means she's roughly getting extra 1 free attack per turn than she was previously, which is great. Increasing the mobility for foundry models is again nice but I don't think it really changes much for her. She can now do a better alpha strike pulling some other beater and her new trigger allows her to play more of a hit and run style which might be really awesome for her. Ultimately though she's still a fairly resource intensive beater and these upgrades don't change that. Again I'll say she's better but nothing game changing.

Then we have Colette.... poor Colette. She's at the bottom the wave 5 barrel in terms of what she got. I don't feel like her new upgrades change her nor do they expand on what she normally does in any meaningful capacity. She's the exact same as she was before with prompt being her main stay. I don't see her new upgrades being taken when we have better options in arcane reservoir and seize the day. With the boost everyone else got and the recent change to prompt, I feel like Colette is the only master to actually slide down tier as prompt is no longer as special and were seeing things like Zoriada's new obey that completely crap on prompt. An increase of push effects, models that ignore Df triggers and overall more competitive masters means Colette just doesn't stand out anymore. She's not bad, she's just no longer the menace she used to be.

My current ranking

1) Marcus

2) Sandeep

3) Ramos

4) Ironsides

5) Kaeris

6) Colette

7) Mei

8) Raspy

 

[BFOmega]

I'm thinking Ramos and Ironsides are going to be roughly equal, just different in what you take them into to: Ironsides for hold the point type strats, Ramos for hold the corner type strats. Though with ramos now having more damage, range, and not randomizing, he won't be bad in the hold the point type strats; 3/4/5 on Ca7 nothing to sneeze at. Though it is still a projectile.

[dancater]

Interesting placement Jordon, don't disagree with almost anything you've said, especially for Colette my favorite master who is treading water while the tide is going out.

Two biggest points of agreement is that GG 2018 will shake things up more than book 5 and that the book 5 inclusions have more narrowed the meta than made some masters amazing or others crippled, at least for the Union lads and lasses.

My placement varies from yours, partly for this reason.

1. Marcus got good upgrades and ever more nasty Beasts with a legit (if niche) poison build
2. Sandeep not huge boost in book 5 so a tiny slide but his position reflects how good he was and continues to be
3. Ironsides because she did get a massive boost and I think GG 2018 (100% agree this will have the seismic impact on meta) will emphasize her crew build over Ramos
4. Ramos (and this was close, its more position 3.4 v 3.6) still mainly a summoner but got flexibility, not much added in terms of crew options but its amazing to see a book 1 master whose crew still looks much like it did in book 1 while maintaining high competitiveness 
5. Kaeris got some great upgrade in book 5 if not much crew help, makes her a fast, dangerous and durable master
6. Raspy, her FH crew is still great and now the weaker options can be summoned in , she got some nice vectors in book 5 upgrades and the summons make up for the lack of direct crew support (really surprised you placed her so low Jordon, this was my one clear disagreement)
7. Colette, as has been observed she is basically static (post the nerf) while books 4 & 5 has seen opposing masters get tools which specifically cripple some of her tricks and other Arcanist masters have been given a real boost.  I actually fear GG 2018 could knock the ladies into the cellar
8. Mei is a still solid, which is a nice reflection for where Arcanists are, but book 5 upgrades a resource intensive and minimal theme force help.  Speed, durability wise Kaeris is now better, durability and damage wise Ironsides wins out.  Mei's strongest play is a hard counter vs primary ranged builds and good selection vs Rezzers, particularly the Reva filth.  But feel every master above her has more reliable and flexible play.  Except maybe Colette who currently schemes far better than Mei and in GG 2017 that is dominant but seems likely that GG 2018 could flip the meta-table.   

[WWHSD]

7 hours ago, dancater said:

 

• Ironsides is jumping in here as her upgrades have finally made her the tar-pit damage dealer that it looked like she was meant to be but never quite was, not as flexible as the others but what she does she does well and its a almost invaluable ability, to get in the middle and disrupt.  Not much huge crew wise I guess but M&SU was already pretty solid with great options although the Medical Automaton looks really intriguing.

The Union Steamfitter is great with Ironsides. Getting her Armor +1 and being able to downgrade severe damage is fantastic for allowing her to soak up damage.

The Steamfitter is an all around solid model that can probably find a home with almost any Arcanist master but I think that Ironsides benefits from them more than most.

[dancater]

2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

The Union Steamfitter is great with Ironsides. Getting her Armor +1 and being able to downgrade severe damage is fantastic for allowing her to soak up damage.

The Steamfitter is an all around solid model that can probably find a home with almost any Arcanist master but I think that Ironsides benefits from them more than most.

Yep true that.

I want to really emphasize that the book 5 upgrades and contents really seems to aim for (and largely succeeds for Arcanists I think) giving the masters more value from staying strongly in theme, I really like having a positive motivation for staying basically in theme and that is a great meta-direction for my gaming satisfaction.

I own the models and forgot them, stupid.  Basically reinforces that Ironsides post-book 5 is on the upswing, which is good, always liked her.

Still sad about Colette, really think she needs something.  Losing tri-Prompt was fine, hated that play even though it was really strong but between the book 4 & 5 changes she has literally been tri-nerfed and despite Carlos (who is amazing) has in the space of 12 months gone from arguably the top Arcanist to possibly the bottom.

Overall looking at my 8 I think 1 & 2 are really close, both super flexible tool boxes, and then there is a short gap to the almost joint 3/4 slot wheere they are superb but have some tough combo match ups.  The gap to 5 is not huge and then 6, both these masters have a good range but can suffer hard counters and poor scheme-strat pools, flexible but they have a definite power curve with some game combos really good and others really bad.   Then I think there is a definite space between those to 7 and 8 where the scheme-strat-match up pool becomes critical because Mei shines against certain combos but is at best pedestrian against many others and Colette is a solid master with now numerous real hard counters which she simply has no good answer for at all.

[Mxbedlam]

Good to see that several people are in agreement with me about where our meta is at the moment. I don't see anyone as completely unplayable but there's several uphill battles to stay competitive.

[Jordon]

11 hours ago, dancater said:

My placement varies from yours, partly for this reason.

1. Marcus got good upgrades and ever more nasty Beasts with a legit (if niche) poison build
2. Sandeep not huge boost in book 5 so a tiny slide but his position reflects how good he was and continues to be
3. Ironsides because she did get a massive boost and I think GG 2018 (100% agree this will have the seismic impact on meta) will emphasize her crew build over Ramos
4. Ramos (and this was close, its more position 3.4 v 3.6) still mainly a summoner but got flexibility, not much added in terms of crew options but its amazing to see a book 1 master whose crew still looks much like it did in book 1 while maintaining high competitiveness 
5. Kaeris got some great upgrade in book 5 if not much crew help, makes her a fast, dangerous and durable master
6. Raspy, her FH crew is still great and now the weaker options can be summoned in , she got some nice vectors in book 5 upgrades and the summons make up for the lack of direct crew support (really surprised you placed her so low Jordon, this was my one clear disagreement)
7. Colette, as has been observed she is basically static (post the nerf) while books 4 & 5 has seen opposing masters get tools which specifically cripple some of her tricks and other Arcanist masters have been given a real boost.  I actually fear GG 2018 could knock the ladies into the cellar
8. Mei is a still solid, which is a nice reflection for where Arcanists are, but book 5 upgrades a resource intensive and minimal theme force help.  Speed, durability wise Kaeris is now better, durability and damage wise Ironsides wins out.  Mei's strongest play is a hard counter vs primary ranged builds and good selection vs Rezzers, particularly the Reva filth.  But feel every master above her has more reliable and flexible play.  Except maybe Colette who currently schemes far better than Mei and in GG 2017 that is dominant but seems likely that GG 2018 could flip the meta-table.   

Yeah my bottom three were a lot harder to discern than the top three. I do agree that Colette is circling the bottom currently which is unfortunate as I love Colette and use her probably more than any other master. Her drop seems so sudden and is a testament to how much the meta has changed over the course of 1-2 books.

As for Raspy, I do love ice queen but I just don't feel like she brings as much utility to the table as Mei which is why she was bottom for me. Mei has two distinct styles of play with vent steam being an incredible, albeit somewhat situational support ability. Obviously her other is kicking people in their faces from across the table. I feel like these upgrades enhanced what she already does and makes her a better fighter (both in terms of offense and defense) as well as a better support model. Raspy gained a bit of utility but ultimately her AP is probably better spent on blasting and even though her Ml attack is welcomed. I still think engaging her is still a valid tactic against her. 

I am willing to be wrong on that and as others have said I don't think there are any "bad" choices. I look forward to trying them all.

[MetaphoricDragn]

I think my lovely TIna got what she needed with this upgrade wave, though not impressively so.  Tina's biggest problem was the blatant Achilles heel if you engaged her.  That left her with the choice of completely neutering her damage in order to survive, or investing in a 10+ point model and hoping it lives long enough to pull her out of any predicament.  Now with the melee upgrade, she can do something besides try to walk away if engaged, freeing her to take the Blasty upgrade without nearly as much worry.  +1 Walk is nice too, I'd have approved of a charge just to shake things up a bit, but oh well.  I still think she suffers from activation order still though, the want to get the +1 damage aura up and to blast right away before bad things happen.  I've yet to decide where her Summon upgrade might fit in. Right now I think my go to 3 will be Shattered Heart, Cold Nights (Ice Pillars so good, if only we could take the Cyclops too), and Enveloped in Ice

[Mxbedlam]

29 minutes ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

I think my lovely TIna got what she needed with this upgrade wave, though not impressively so.  Tina's biggest problem was the blatant Achilles heel if you engaged her.  That left her with the choice of completely neutering her damage in order to survive, or investing in a 10+ point model and hoping it lives long enough to pull her out of any predicament.  Now with the melee upgrade, she can do something besides try to walk away if engaged, freeing her to take the Blasty upgrade without nearly as much worry.  +1 Walk is nice too, I'd have approved of a charge just to shake things up a bit, but oh well.  I still think she suffers from activation order still though, the want to get the +1 damage aura up and to blast right away before bad things happen.  I've yet to decide where her Summon upgrade might fit in. Right now I think my go to 3 will be Shattered Heart, Cold Nights (Ice Pillars so good, if only we could take the Cyclops too), and Enveloped in Ice

I just can't see myself ever taking the new upgrades with her. She craves Reservoir a bit too much to relinquish it and Cold Nights is THE reason I take her. 

[Jordon]

The new summon is good but typically I find the best way to keep up on activation control is to kill swathes of my opponents crew. There are times where I see summoning being a better option but for the most part it's still business as usual for Raspy. However I do also think upgrade slots are not as clear cut as they were before. Options are good, but competition makes it tough

 

[retnab]

The way I see Raspy, Servants is going to be used reactively. Killed my backline Gamin? Wendigo can bring it back for me. I killed a frontline enemy construct? Stone to turn it into an Ice Golem. Spending 1 AP every few turns (and not even necessarily Raspy's) seems pretty fair and not too distracting from the nuking.

[Jordon]

43 minutes ago, retnab said:

The way I see Raspy, Servants is going to be used reactively. Killed my backline Gamin? Wendigo can bring it back for me. I killed a frontline enemy construct? Stone to turn it into an Ice Golem. Spending 1 AP every few turns (and not even necessarily Raspy's) seems pretty fair and not too distracting from the nuking.

Wendigo would need a 10 to summon a gamin, at which point I feel like Raspy can make better use of the card. Especially if its an 11+ because then she can summon the golem instead. 

For me the wendigo's AP will almost always be better spend casting Ice Pillars. It's easy and I can sometimes get a free card from it. Plus pillars are always awesome

[Thottbot]

18 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Wendigo would need a 10 to summon a gamin, at which point I feel like Raspy can make better use of the card. Especially if its an 11+ because then she can summon the golem instead. 

For me the wendigo's AP will almost always be better spend casting Ice Pillars. It's easy and I can sometimes get a free card from it. Plus pillars are always awesome

agreed, if they need to increase the TN just to make it for a low soulstone minion, they should have that as exclusive, because the raspys ice Golem summon just straight up outshines wendigos. maybe if they switched who summons who, a 11+ on wendigo to summon a Golem and a lower TN on raspy to summon a gamin, like 6? 

[Thottbot]

that way you have the difficulty as a rasp player to use magic or summon, and on the wendigo you have to choose pillars or a Golem 

[BFOmega]

No, a 3SS minion should never be able to summon a 10 SS enforcer, at all. It probably shouldn't be able to summon anything, and I wouldn't be surprised if it got FAQ'd as such, but needing a 10 to summon is pretty damn good as is.

[SevenThirtySeven]

My first impression after a few games:

Models

I think Kandara is by far the best model arcanists got in Wave 5, although our models were fairly average compared to other factions. I will qualify my feelings on Kandara by saying she is so perfect for Sandeep and only Sandeep, and middling for anyone else, even Kaeris.  

Steamfitter is ok, but resource hungry.  He slightly buffs Ramos since now Ramos isn't chained to the Joss+toolkit combo when he builds his lists.

Upgrades

Asides from Ironsides' upgrades, all of our masters got situational upgrades but no auto-takes.  So big buff to Ironsides, and maybe slight buff to Kaeris.  And Marcus got a buff just bc his upgrades provide 2 totally new playstyles for him (tank and poison) to throw an opponent off. Not that I'd take either very often, but it allows you to solo him more confidently in a tournament.

 

The Wave only furthered the distance of the Top 2.  Ironsides makes a big leap to distant 3 or 4.

1. Sandeep (A+, upgraded from A)

2. Marcus (A, upgraded from B+)

GAP

3. Ironsides (B-, upgraded from C-)

4. Ramos (C+, upgraded from C)

5. Raspy (C, flat from C)

GAP

6. Colette (C-, flat from C-)

7. Kaeris (C-, upgraded from D)

8. Mei Feng (D, flat from D)

 

I'll be at Live Free Die Cheating in New Hampshire in a few weeks, and will see if my opinions hold true in a competitive setting. 

 

 

[SevenThirtySeven]

2 hours ago, Jordon said:

Wendigo would need a 10 to summon a gamin, at which point I feel like Raspy can make better use of the card. Especially if its an 11+ because then she can summon the golem instead. 

For me the wendigo's AP will almost always be better spend casting Ice Pillars. It's easy and I can sometimes get a free card from it. Plus pillars are always awesome

The summon for the Ice Golem requires 3 tomes.  Only one is built in.  Wendigo cannot summon the Ice Golem, since he would need to stone a tome in and he's a minion who cannot stone.

[WWHSD]

20 minutes ago, SevenThirtySeven said:

Steamfitter is ok, but resource hungry. 

I haven't found that to be true. I don't use him for marker generation much so that might explain our difference of opinion.

I've gotten in a few games with a Steamfitter in my crew and there have only been a couple of activations that he hasn't ended up pulling a severe card back into my hand and I have yet to have anyone make it to the end of a game with his Reinforced Sheet Armor intact.   

[SevenThirtySeven]

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I haven't found that to be true. I don't use him for marker generation much so that might explain our difference of opinion.

I've gotten in a few games with a Steamfitter in my crew and there have only been a couple of activations that he hasn't ended up pulling a severe card back into my hand and I have yet to have anyone make it to the end of a game with his Reinforced Sheet Armor intact.   

It is possible I have not explored him fully.  I think he's great as a defensive deterrent vs. snipers for example, but havent faced any sniper lists recently.  And he can definitely buff your big beaters and master.  If you don't use him for markers I can see how he could become less resource intensive.

There are some great models in arcanists for between 5-7 SS, and my lists are pretty set overall.  But perhaps I should give him some more time on the board, I'll give you that. 

[WWHSD]

7 minutes ago, SevenThirtySeven said:

It is possible I have not explored him fully.  I think he's great as a defensive deterrent vs. snipers for example, but havent faced any sniper lists recently.  And he can definitely buff your big beaters and master.  If you don't use him for markers I can see how he could become less resource intensive.

There are some great models in arcanists for between 5-7 SS, and my lists are pretty set overall.  But perhaps I should give him some more time on the board, I'll give you that. 

I find myself taking him more for control hand manipulation than anything else. Maybe I overvalue being able to snatch good cards from the discard pile.

[SevenThirtySeven]

Just now, WWHSD said:

I find myself taking him more for control hand manipulation than anything else. Maybe I overvalue being able to snatch good cards from the discard pile.

I have found that to only be situationally useful.  Since usually your opponent is making you flip cards after any of your activations, its hard to plan when and where a good card will be.  Not to mention, it then adds another parameter to consider when activating your models. 

[MuMantai]

I find the Steamfitter to be an incredible model and a huge boost to especially Ironsides and Sandeep (for armor) and (less so) Ramos and Rasputina (for scrap). He is the reason why I still value Sandeep as No. 1. Yes, getting the armor on the model is resource intensive, but Arm +1 on Sandeep boosts his survivability a lot and fixes what I see as his only weakness.

Also, the card cycle in later turns in very powerful. I have more than once cheated a defense with a high card I would not have invested otherwise, only to get it back directly afterwards. And (usually only works in turn 1), winning initiative with Seize The Day, letting your opponent go first, and then getting that high card back is very rewarding

[retnab]

After getting several games with the Steamfitter in, I think you should only ever expect it to give Armor +1 to 1-2 models in a game, partly because of the huge resource sink of making its own scrap and partly the short range.  I did an Ironsides game where I had 4 potential Armor targets and could only give it to half before the fighting started.  It is an amazing model though, I absolutely agree it's going to change things up (and still believe Beasts are some of the best targets for it with their high pools and regular HtW/HtK as well).