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Schemes & Stones - Wave 5 Ten Thunders Upgrades


Khyodee

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2 things:

1 - There is some mention of taking railwalker's trigger passenger line (on Mei's new upgrade) with the take advantage of every opening ability, this won't work as railwalker is not an attack action.

2 - I don't think the Schrödinger's huggy trick works that way as Lynch's Rising Sun upgrade says that Huggy is not killed and is instead buried. If it did work that way I think huggy would be removed from the table as per being killed and Rising Sun wouldn't work.

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1 hour ago, Jinn said:

2 - I don't think the Schrödinger's huggy trick works that way as Lynch's Rising Sun upgrade says that Huggy is not killed and is instead buried. If it did work that way I think huggy would be removed from the table as per being killed and Rising Sun wouldn't work.

As I understand it, here's how it would go down. My model activates and kills your Huggy. Then we take a look at the timing rules (page 51 SRB):

Quote

General Timing
Most Abilities grant a passive effect, some of which have their effect
when a model suffers damage or is killed. Whenever any Ability
happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved
first. If two Abilities happen at the same time, resolve them in the
following order:
1.  The Acting Model resolves its Abilities. [My Generic Model has no applicable abilities here]
2.  The Defending Model (if there is one) resolves its Abilities. [Huggy resolves his Death Contract ability because he died]
3.  Any other models controlled by the First Player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the First Player chooses. [My Generic Crew has no applicable abilities here]
4.  Any other models controlled by the Second Player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the Second Player chooses. [Lynch's Rising Sun ability happens and and Huggy becomes not-dead] 

 

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Would this mean that Huggy also counts as killed for schemes and strategies? If Rising Sun isn't retroactive in some sense then Huggy has been killed and then buried, meaning you would get VP for killing him. There are a few models with on kill summon effects which would apparently work on huggy, and models with on kill buffs. Do models with Eat Your Fill heal off of huggy?

The timing does seem to play out in favour of the Schrödinger's huggy strategy, I'll agree, but with this interpretation a lot of other models should be counting as being killed just before they're not killed.

Leveticus, Bad Juju and (I think) Bete Noir have abilities with similar wording to Rising Sun, should schemes that involve killing models be playing out differently? I think by the Schrödinger interpretation these models should at the very least be dropping heads when they are buried, while end of turn scoring becomes more ambiguous.

I think this needs an FAQ or errata.

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8 hours ago, Jinn said:

Would this mean that Huggy also counts as killed for schemes and strategies? If Rising Sun isn't retroactive in some sense then Huggy has been killed and then buried, meaning you would get VP for killing him. There are a few models with on kill summon effects which would apparently work on huggy, and models with on kill buffs. Do models with Eat Your Fill heal off of huggy?

The timing does seem to play out in favour of the Schrödinger's huggy strategy, I'll agree, but with this interpretation a lot of other models should be counting as being killed just before they're not killed.

Leveticus, Bad Juju and (I think) Bete Noir have abilities with similar wording to Rising Sun, should schemes that involve killing models be playing out differently? I think by the Schrödinger interpretation these models should at the very least be dropping heads when they are buried, while end of turn scoring becomes more ambiguous.

I think this needs an FAQ or errata.

Death Contract works because both Death Contract and the ability from Rising Sun fire at the same time; when this model is killed... etc. The effects you're taking about (Eat Your Fill,  Dig Their Graves, etc) happen after a model is killed. It's not retroactive, you're simply choosing the order in which they fire. Like reckless regenerating gremlins taking and then healing the damage, and so on. At the end of resolving huggy's effects he's not dead.

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4 hours ago, Amayasu said:

Death Contract works because both Death Contract and the ability from Rising Sun fire at the same time; when this model is killed... etc. The effects you're taking about (Eat Your Fill,  Dig Their Graves, etc) happen after a model is killed. It's not retroactive, you're simply choosing the order in which they fire. Like reckless regenerating gremlins taking and then healing the damage, and so on. At the end of resolving huggy's effects he's not dead.

Headhunter's wording is whenever a model kills or sacrifices another model, not after. A Quick Murder is: This crew earns 2 VP if the noted enemy model is killed or sacrificed before the end of the game. Assassinate's wording is: "If the enemy Leader is killed or sacrificed, reveal this scheme. If the enemy leader is killed or sacrificed, reveal this Scheme." If this is how it works with regard to assassinate then why would it have needed to be changed to eliminate the leadership?

The definition of killed in the rulebook is: "When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed."

I don't see how you can consider a model to have been killed without it being immediately removed from the game. If you allow for a model to count as being killed without being removed then it should also be possible for it to be considered to have been killed and not killed at the same time. So, why shouldn't Eat Your Fill work? Huggy has been killed during the action preceding Eat Your Fill, he just happens to be not killed at the end of it, he was still killed so why not full heal?

 

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I agree, the Schroedinger's Huggy feels really gamey and goes against every other affect. Personally, it's not something I would ever do. 

In my opinion, it doesn't work either as most of these abilities say when this model is killed, it is not killed, so the model was never killed to begin with. 

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7 hours ago, Jinn said:

Headhunter's wording is whenever a model kills or sacrifices another model, not after. A Quick Murder is: This crew earns 2 VP if the noted enemy model is killed or sacrificed before the end of the game. Assassinate's wording is: "If the enemy Leader is killed or sacrificed, reveal this scheme. If the enemy leader is killed or sacrificed, reveal this Scheme." If this is how it works with regard to assassinate then why would it have needed to be changed to eliminate the leadership?

The definition of killed in the rulebook is: "When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed."

I don't see how you can consider a model to have been killed without it being immediately removed from the game. If you allow for a model to count as being killed without being removed then it should also be possible for it to be considered to have been killed and not killed at the same time. So, why shouldn't Eat Your Fill work? Huggy has been killed during the action preceding Eat Your Fill, he just happens to be not killed at the end of it, he was still killed so why not full heal?

 

Headhunter is as the model is removed from play, which Huggy isn't. A Quick Murder requires a high SS cost model, Huggy is 0. Assassinate would require Huggy to be leading, which means no Lynch, which in turn means no upgrade to avoid him dying; Huggy will be killed.

The Rising Sun is clear; when this model is killed it is not killed. Death Contract is clear; when this model is killed opponent throws two cards or two stones or is immediately killed. The rules are clear; when two effects resolve at the same time the owner chooses the order.

 

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18 hours ago, Amayasu said:

Headhunter is as the model is removed from play, which Huggy isn't. A Quick Murder requires a high SS cost model, Huggy is 0. Assassinate would require Huggy to be leading, which means no Lynch, which in turn means no upgrade to avoid him dying; Huggy will be killed.

The Rising Sun is clear; when this model is killed it is not killed. Death Contract is clear; when this model is killed opponent throws two cards or two stones or is immediately killed. The rules are clear; when two effects resolve at the same time the owner chooses the order.

 

Those all apply to other models with the same wording as Huggy, meaning that this interpretation affects them as well. Also, Headhunter quite clearly says that the marker is placed when a model kills or sacrifices a non-peon model which it considers an enemy before that model leaves play. Huggy is fair game for that with the Schrödinger's interpretation of the rules.

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8 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Those all apply to other models with the same wording as Huggy, meaning that this interpretation affects them as well. Also, Headhunter quite clearly says that the marker is placed when a model kills or sacrifices a non-peon model which it considers an enemy before that model leaves play. Huggy is fair game for that with the Schrödinger's interpretation of the rules.

They don't because those abilities actually belong to Huggy, rather than another model in Huggy's crew. That's the crux of the issue, that Huggy doesn't own this ability so it doesn't actually get applied until after Death Contract, which is Huggy's ability, gets checked.

All scheme and strategy conditions are checked at the very end of their timing point, so no Huggy doesn't drop a head.

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3 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

They don't because those abilities actually belong to Huggy, rather than another model in Huggy's crew. That's the crux of the issue, that Huggy doesn't own this ability so it doesn't actually get applied until after Death Contract, which is Huggy's ability, gets checked.

All scheme and strategy conditions are checked at the very end of their timing point, so no Huggy doesn't drop a head.

There is no timing step for being killed other than being removed from the table: "When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed" , I don't see any rule about scheme and strategies being checked at the end of a step either.

Here is the wording on a different model with a similar ability, Bad Juju: "When this model is killed (not sacrificed), it is not killed. Instead, bury this model. Remove all conditions and heal all damage on this model." By the interpretation above, after Juju is killed but before he is removed a head should be placed as per headhunter. If, instead a more reasonable interpretation of the rules (i.e. models don't count as being killed if a rule states that they are not killed) were used none of these issues would occur. 

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Yeesh. The whole "Schrödinger's Huggy" thing feels extremely dubious to me. The "simultaneous resolution" argument makes sense, but the result seems totally unintended. If something seems too good to be true (and that outcome sure does), then it usually is... I'd be very wary of building a Lynch playstyle around that "tactic", as it seems like the sort of thing that will get FAQ'd out of existence at some point.

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52 minutes ago, Jinn said:

There is no timing step for being killed other than being removed from the table: "When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed" , I don't see any rule about scheme and strategies being checked at the end of a step either.

Here is the wording on a different model with a similar ability, Bad Juju: "When this model is killed (not sacrificed), it is not killed. Instead, bury this model. Remove all conditions and heal all damage on this model." By the interpretation above, after Juju is killed but before he is removed a head should be placed as per headhunter. If, instead a more reasonable interpretation of the rules (i.e. models don't count as being killed if a rule states that they are not killed) were used none of these issues would occur. 

There literally is a timing step for being killed. Multiple in game effects happen when a model is killed, that makes it a timing step. And if multiple effects resolve at the same time, we go to the general timing callout box.

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13 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

There literally is a timing step for being killed. Multiple in game effects happen when a model is killed, that makes it a timing step. And if multiple effects resolve at the same time, we go to the general timing callout box.

"When killed" has always been the wonkiest of the timing points, though. The whole concept of "when this model is killed, it is not killed" rules is fundamentally broken, and the way that lots of rules refer to a kind of "killed" pseudo-status as something that exists independently of the model being removed from the game directly clashes with the actual rule for what it means to be killed.

Basically, calling this "Schrödinger's Huggy" is arguing for a quantum superposition that doesn't collapse when observed. "Was Huggy killed, or not?" is a question that should have a definitive answer one way or the other, but resolving Death Contract and Rising Sun requires the answer to be "both". It's a wonky outcome that relies on the fact that the rules for models being killed are themselves entirely wonky.

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On 2017-09-18 at 5:47 AM, Da Git said:

I agree, the Schroedinger's Huggy feels really gamey and goes against every other affect. Personally, it's not something I would ever do. 

In my opinion, it doesn't work either as most of these abilities say when this model is killed, it is not killed, so the model was never killed to begin with. 

You resolve them in the specific order for a reason, you don't go back on that afterwards so I think it works as per the rules. I agree that it's a lame and gamey move though.

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4 hours ago, Jinn said:

There is no timing step for being killed other than being removed from the table: "When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed" , I don't see any rule about scheme and strategies being checked at the end of a step either.

This is becoming pointless, and won't be resolved here; if it's unintended it'll see a FAQ. 

But to be clear there is a timing step for killing. There's a timing step for everything. The game has a huge number of when killed, after killed effects. Ignoring Death Contract for a moment it's blatantly clear that when Huggy reaches Zero wounds and is killed, he is not killed. That's not open for debate.

When two effects happen at the same time, the owner chooses the order. Also not open for debate; it's in the rules.

Finally I doubt this discussion was what the OP was hoping for; a debate about a gamey mechanic that has been in the game for a reasonable amount of time, off the back of a podcast talking about the great new stuff TT get.

 

P.S. You're not going to like the new unkillable Henchman...

 

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Good episode, I liked the host swap^_^

I'm curious as to why you don't think cheating bastard is good enough.

Your whole crew cheating last seems so strong to me that it's worth risking huggy for. Every time the opponent wins with a weak or low moderate card he's forced to cheat air take a huge risk. Coupled with your already awesome deck management and I think it'll be amazing.

The rest of the upgrade is just sugar on top.

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18 hours ago, Angelshard said:

I'm curious as to why you don't think cheating bastard is good enough.

Your whole crew cheating last seems so strong to me that it's worth risking huggy for. Every time the opponent wins with a weak or low moderate card he's forced to cheat air take a huge risk. Coupled with your already awesome deck management and I think it'll be amazing.

I want to like it, but it is only model within 6" :aura of Lynch or Huggy (this might have changed; my cards are at home and I'm going off the playtest cards). The usual way of playing Huggy and Lynch means Huggy will rush off and die (but then come back ;)) and lynch activating last which means the rest of the crew will be fairly spread out. 

Without Rising Sun you'll be towing round a def 3 henchman  that you'll probably want to activate later in the round to get some healing from it's trigger. 

Can we think of builds that might make use of the Cheating upgrade?

Lynch - Cheating Bastard, Expert Cheater, Woke Up with a Hand

Cheat second if within 6" of Lynch or Huggy, cheat face down if within LoS of Lynch. Lynch gains a layer of defense with the squeal trigger and Woke up with a hand for more cards at the end of the turn. Hopefully Cheating Bastard would be able to put Brilliance on one target via card draw (Lynch activates and you choose to activate Woke up with a hand, and then House Rules) which will save AP for Final Debt (and possibly a card. Opponents don't want their model to gain Brilliance with Lynch around and I usually have to cheat to ensure it goes off) 

Even with the possibilities this provides, I'd still want to include 2 TC warirors so I could switch to Rising Sun in a turn (1 TC activates, switches Cheating Bastard to Wanna see a Trick, 2nd TC activates and switches Expert Cheater to Rising Sun)

Any other ideas?

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

I was thinking of using beckoners to lure people to lynch who then kills them.

With ca 7 and cheating last you're quite sure of getting people to you.

 

I thought beckoners only have ca 6? Lilitu has ca 7, but we can't get het here unfortunately :P

I like to do something like this as well. If the strat and schemes don't require you to leave your home base, just bring them to you and wreck them with Lynch and Huggy.

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Couple of points after listening:

 

McCabe:  I would always run him with cloak, promises, and loot bag to start now (I also almost always play the emissary).

 

Yan lo's Follow footsteps does not get you +3 chi if you opponent scores (strat(1vp), scheme 1(1vp) and scheme 2(1vp)) at the end of the turn.  All end of turn vp is scored at the same step, so it is still only one instance of gaining VP.

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