Wrath - no new upgrade?

[Sklertic]

Hi there

As the title suggests, there doesn't seem to be any new upgrades for Wrath in the new book. I think this is disappointing, as I quite enjoy playing the Crossroads 7, but I think we can agree, that as a master, wrath is probably the weakest in the game. A dedicated melee master with 8 wounds and no defensive tricks. Bad.

So I was looking forward to the new book, but was a bit frustrated when I realized, that they forgot about Wrath.

Can we expect some new upgrades for him in the future? If so, what are the general ideas for making our favorite band a bit stronger?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Wrath isn't a master.

[-Loki-]

3 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Wrath isn't a master.

This. His upgrade also doesn't make him a Master. You're still playing a game led by a Henchman but with 1 additional general AP.

[Sklertic]

He functions like your crews master, so I still think the query is valid. Health of the game and that.

[Myyrä]

Wrath leading a crew has nothing to do with the health of the game. Crossroads 7 isn't a real faction. (Much like Gremlins.)

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Sklertic said:

He functions like your crews master, so I still think the query is valid. Health of the game and that.

He was never intended to be at the same level as a master. The crossroad 7 was never intended to be a viable crew option. His ability to lead a 50ss+ crew has nothing to do with the health of the game.

[Rob Lo]

As the leader of a crew, would have been cool to see an upgrade or two for him. I don't think anyone's expecting them to become some powerhouse out of nowhere, but I also don't see any disclaimer on the box that says this crew isn't intended to be viable.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I can lead a crew with Mortimer, should I therefore have the same expectation of further upgrades for him?

Wrath isn't a special case deserving of any more attention than any other henchman in the game.

[4thstringer]

Sure he is a special case.   He is the only henchman that has a special upgrade for when you make him a Master.   If they didn't intend for it to be viable, they shouldn't have made it in the first place.  

Him not having an upgrade doesn't mean the game is doomed or anything like that, but I have a hard time explaining why people are so against him getting an upgrade at that stage.  If they hadn't intended for him to function like a master in a CR7 crew they would have never made his (0) upgrade.

[Fetid Strumpet]

From everything I remember about the process during the book 3 open I can pretty confidently say I believe  you're wrong.

We can certainly argue about what should have been done, but the band is a fun, silly, thematic crew, and that's about it. And they shouldn't, as a group, be anything else.

[4thstringer]

4 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

From everything I remember about the process during the book 3 open I can pretty confidently say I believe  you're wrong.

We can certainly argue about what should have been done, but the band is a fun, silly, thematic crew, and that's about it. And they shouldn't, as a group, be anything else.

And yet he gives not reasons....

Why shouldn't they be?

[PerpetualBeginner1]

"He's not a master"

Correct, but is the leader of a full crew, no other henchmen in the game can claim that title. Also, I'm not sure if other henchmen can lead crew in 50 ss games which is where you would be most likely playing wrath as a leader. Am I missing something in the rules?

"Crossroads 7 isn't a real faction."

Agreed, it is whatever faction you want but Wrath is distinctly Neverborn. He can still be given a new Neverborn upgrade, similar to his current zero, which would work exactly the same way and can be used in any faction you take the crew. I don't see a reason this can't be the case.

"He was never intended to be at the same level as a master. The crossroad 7 was never intended to be a viable crew option."

I don't think anyone is claiming that  Wrath should be at the same level as a master, just that it would have been nice, as the leader of a full crew, to get a new upgrade. Also, has Wyrd explicitly stated that the 7 were never meant to be viable?

I'm having a really hard time understanding people's responses on this one.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Define viable.

[Rob Lo]

Guy pops on the malifaux forums to talk malifaux and gets curt little answers amounting to "You're wrong".

 

Sklertic, I doubt they'll add any upgrades for CR7, the last book would have been an appropriate place to do it. But you never know, they seem more willing to mix things up now than in the past. The box at this point is a tax to get to Lust, or maybe Envy, in most people's eyes. Time has put them in the same spot someone like Lucius or Ironsides were, before they got boosted.You can put them on the table, it could be fun, but less likely to be competitive.

If I were going to boost them, I might put something similar to what was done for the oxfordians. Hiring the whole CR7 gives you 4SS of free upgrades from your chosen faction to be put on members of the crew. Or, maybe you can hire 6SSs of minion for free. Pulling the last 2 SS from your chosen faction is an interesting part of them, but not much room to play with, so give them a little.

[PerpetualBeginner1]

@Fetid Strumpet

Honestly, I'm not sure how santaclaws1 meant to use the word viable, you would need to ask him.

In general, I use it to mean, given all other things equal, the 7 should be able to be put up against another crew and have a reasonable chance of winning (excluding rock/paper/scissors scenarios). Also, it is important to point out that the original claim was that the 7 were "never intended to be a viable crew option". This would require some statement from Wyrd as evidence. Whether or not they are a viable crew option is a different issue.

[necroon]

I believe he didn't get an upgrade (or two) because Wrath does not possess the Master Station as that seems to be the common denominator here.

I'd certainly like to see more unique-to-Henchmen upgrades, be they for leading crews or otherwise, and aside from that think an upgrade for Wrath would be neat. 

To some extent I think it's much less about what the (perceived) intent around it is and more about what people want: If the community at large wants some X-7 love and makes that known I'm sure we'll see a little something down the (cross) road: I for one am all for it. Even another small scenario kit or something that continues their story, maybe with some alt performer "roadies" or something. 

[necroon]

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I can lead a crew with Mortimer, should I therefore have the same expectation of further upgrades for him?

Wrath isn't a special case deserving of any more attention than any other henchman in the game.

You can't lead a Scrap with Mortimer: 50 stone games may only be led by Masters (Small Book pg 76: Determine Encounter Size). Wrath's Lead Singer ability specifically allows him circumvent this rule. 

This is fact does make Wrath a "special case", as you put it.

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

We can certainly argue about what should have been done, but the band is a fun, silly, thematic crew, and that's about it. And they shouldn't, as a group, be anything else.

New books are all about more options - This being different, and how they shouldn't be anything else, is just what you want. Some people want different things: that's okay. It happens. 

[Sklertic]

Thanks for the replies, good to see some actual discussion about the topic

I didn't think the subject would be met with such determination from some people, but although he technicially isn't a master he certainly plays like one, and I think you guys got that from my initial writings.

Personally I would like two limited upgrades, one that boosts his survivability and another that gives him a more varied combat role, by adding some debuffs or shooting spell of some kind. Both upgrades would have armor +1 or regen +2 on them.

Am I crazy?

[(Keenan)]

Completely ignoring whether CR7 is a viable crew or what Wyrd's or anyone else's intentions were/are, the new upgrades specifically say on the box Master Upgrades Deck, which to me would mean Wrath wouldn't get one this book. That being said yeah it would be cool to introduce new upgrades for Henchmen and make them more viable/playable

[necroon]

If I got to pick I'd like a "part 2" scenario box featuring some alts (Like I said: performers would be cool. Sure they have alts already by their mercs so meh) as roadies.

You could package an upgrade (or maybe two) that reflect what may have happened or changed in the story since we last left off: that may be cool. So far @Rob Lo's "Oxfordian Mage Treatment" idea is my favorite but really anything would be fine with me. It's just nice to see more options and some people are really passionate about the X-Roads 7 and it would be nice to see some more down there is it's a really cool concept that I think can be expanded on.

[Adran]

On 15/09/2017 at 7:15 PM, Sklertic said:

Thanks for the replies, good to see some actual discussion about the topic

I didn't think the subject would be met with such determination from some people, but although he technicially isn't a master he certainly plays like one, and I think you guys got that from my initial writings.

Personally I would like two limited upgrades, one that boosts his survivability and another that gives him a more varied combat role, by adding some debuffs or shooting spell of some kind. Both upgrades would have armor +1 or regen +2 on them.

Am I crazy?

Would you want this upgrades only to be allowed when he leads a crew or would you be happy to allow him access to those upgrades when he henchs for anyone else. (or even only when he henchs for neverborn?) 

You would need to consider which factions he was allowed to use those upgrades for?

I would disagree with the sentence that he plays like a master. Yes, you can use him as a leader at a higher point level than another henchman but he is still a henchman, and can still be hired into a crew with a master. 

[Sklertic]

I think they should be avalaible in whatever capacity you play him.

Regarding the "play as a master" part, I think we should just agree to disagree

[-Loki-]

On 16/09/2017 at 5:26 AM, necroon said:

If I got to pick I'd like a "part 2" scenario box featuring some alts (Like I said: performers would be cool. Sure they have alts already by their mercs so meh) as roadies.

Just being alts wouldn't work. To use him as the leader the crew needs at least seven models with the Crossroads Seven keyword, which comes to 48ss since there's only those seven with the keyword. For things like Roadie alts for Performers to work, they'd need to have the keyword, which means they'd be new units.

Though something like Titanias Royal Indignation could work - 'Performers (or Showgirls?) hired when this upgrade is attached to Wrath replace Showgirl with Crossroads Seven'.

[necroon]

40 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

Just being alts wouldn't work. To use him as the leader the crew needs at least seven models with the Crossroads Seven keyword, which comes to 48ss since there's only those seven with the keyword. For things like Roadie alts for Performers to work, they'd need to have the keyword, which means they'd be new units.

Though something like Titanias Royal Indignation could work - 'Performers (or Showgirls?) hired when this upgrade is attached to Wrath replace Showgirl with Crossroads Seven'.

I wasn't offering up performers as a fix, upgrade, enhancement, or model to be included alongside the X-7: just a thought on something that could appear in a "Crossroads story encounter part 2" scenario pack as an alt alongside a possible upgrade of some sort.