Is Collodi next on the chopping block?

[edopersichetti]

Hi all

The more I look at it (and play with it) the more the idea sticks in my mind that Collodi might be the next one to feel the Cuddle bat.

As a premise: I am a passionate Neverborn player and I love Collodi, but at some point I'm starting to prefer playing other masters since Collodi is really not that challenging - he is very dominant in most of the games I play. So basically he's so strong I stopped playing him

From a technical point of view, I see these features:

- He has the best Obey-like effect in the game. An accurate comparison would be Colette, since both My Will and Prompt target friendlies only: My Will has no TN, in fact it doesn't need a flip at all, can target Puppets or Minions and even gives a   to any resulting flip. Colette needs a 6, can target every friendly and still the designers felt this was too powerful and they toned it down so that it can only target a single model once. The comparison is extremely unbalanced. If one compares to Obey (Zoraida, Hamelin etc.), it is true that Obey can also target enemies, but enemies do get the chance to resist, and in any case it needs at least a 7 and can only be used for attacks once per model. Any Zoraida player would agree, those 7s are bloody costly. Even if you just target friendly models, to Obey more than once in a turn is going to be very expensive - Collodi can easily My Will 3-4 times a turn without flipping a single card. So yes he's the puppetmaster, but his Obey-like effect seems way above the curve, and against Malifaux's trend to limit these kind of effects in some way. I can see My Will gaining a TN, or also being reduced to once per model.

- His attack is really quite powerful. It's a Ca action with value 7, no gun icon, decent range and a built in  to damage. The damage track is not that impressive, but given the built in ,  you are very likely to have at least a straight flip to damage, so you have lots of control on the actual damage you inflict. On top of that, the triggers are very nasty: the built-in slow, not to mention the infamous "AP control". None of the other typical support masters (Zoraida, Lucius, Colette etc.) have an attack quite as vicious. And this doesn't even take into account the focus he can get from nearby models if he goes that route with the Limited upgrades.

- He is also a decent summoner, and can summon Marionettes or Wicked Dolls (although I find the Dolls underwhelming at best) and even Effigies (again, with the right upgrade). Not all the support masters are also capable of summoning. Also, unlike The Stolen or Doves for example, Marionettes and Effigies are significant minions.

- He's very hard to kill. This is comparable to the likes of Colette, Lucius, Zoraida etc. but certainly not worse. True he doesn't like Wp attacks and has only 9Wds but between his built-in Df push and personal puppet, he's going to give you quite a hard time at the very least.

- Giving fast to your whole crew is quite insane (sorry this is not very technical but I had to mention it)

Also, he's easily able to out-activate most crews in the game since most of his crew (Marionettes, Effigies etc.) are so cheap - and significant.

So overall, even though I'm quite happy as a Neverborn player to have quite a powerhouse in the faction, I think he's definitely over the line and he might be the next guy to be targeted by an errata. Mind you, it might be something small (like toning down My Will a touch, or adjusting his attack), but I do think something is going to be done. Thoughts?

[-Loki-]

Great. Like the Dreamer, this is going to be one of those awesome crews that gets Cuddled right before I finish painting it to get it on the table.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

. Colette needs a 6, can target only Showgirls or Minions and still the designers felt this was too powerful and they toned it down so that it can only target a single model once. 

Colette can prompt any friendly. Abilities have to be compared by what they can do in faction. Colette being able to get 3 extra ml 7 min damage 4 with an execute attacks is much better than anything Collodi can do with My Will.

[Sybarite]

Yeah Colette was never restricted to prompting only showgirls and minions.

[Angelshard]

I'm afraid you might be right.

I honestly don't think he's stronger than hamelin, sandeep or nellie, but I can agree he might be a bit over the top. 

I would argue though that his new upgrades are very meh, whereas all the other masters in neverborn have received some really strong ones.

Max value suggested that his new melee upgrade might be an omen that his regular attack is gonna receive a  symbol.

[EnternalVoid]

Going to be honest, I do not see him on the chopping block quite yet.  Collodi's issue has been two parts, Decrease in Killy masters and increase in Need for Numbers and AP.  With stuff like frame for murder and more schemes requiring killing being done by non-master models it hurt masters where that was their big stick.  Then you had outnumbering for schemes and strategy grow more important too.  When you have less schemes that score at end of game and more turn by turn, it makes masters that can spam successfully like Collodi rougher.  If masters that specialize at killing see an uptick it might effect where Collodi falls.

All said, I suspect they will have him wait his turn and see how the game shifts with the latest Gaining Ground first.  Collodi is one they have to be careful with because one change could drop him to the bottom of the barrel if they do not do it right.  There are a couple more contenders for the position of the Fix Bat *For one way or another* I would imagine is on the table first.  Now that is not to say that he is not possible on the block, just not in a top position for it.  Also I suspect if he is that it will be very few changes.  I could see My Will being once per Model a turn, if only for Stitched Together.  But one of the things I would suspect to see first is Strum the Threads becoming OTHER puppet models, so it will not work on the person carrying it.  That would force you to have it on a Vasilisa to give Collodi fast.

[Azkral]

20 minutes ago, EnternalVoid said:

 If masters that specialize at killing see an uptick it might effect where Collodi falls.

 

Bag of props Collodi is a good killer.

[santaclaws01]

38 minutes ago, Azkral said:

Bag of props Collodi is a good killer.

With a severe of 4... not really. He can facilitate killing well, but he doesn't do the killing himself.

[Kadeton]

3 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Colette needs a 6, can target only Showgirls or Minions and still the designers felt this was too powerful and they toned it down so that it can only target a single model once. The comparison is extremely unbalanced.

This could potentially be changed... after a new Puppet Enforcer or Henchman with Ml 7 and a 4/5/7 damage track is introduced to the game. (Note: that's not likely to ever happen.) Colette was changed only partly because of the power of her Prompt (which in its original form was significantly stronger than My Will) - it was also because Prompt overshadowed everything else she could do, leading most Colette activations to just be Prompt, Prompt, Prompt, which was not the design intent. Anyway, My Will being limited to Minions and Puppets severely caps its potential for abuse, while Prompt has no target limitations - I'm not sure where you've got that idea from.

3 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

- Giving fast to your whole crew is quite insane (sorry this is not very technical but I had to mention it)

I don't see how he can give Fast to his crew. Can you explain this?

(Sometimes people think you can hand out Fast via Strum the Threads and Fated, but Follow My Lead requires the Condition to come from an Action, which Strum the Threads is not. If there's a way for Collodi to give himself Fast via an Action, I really want to know about it.)

[Angelshard]

I think he just meant that every puppet can use strum.

[Kadeton]

12 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

I think he just meant that every puppet can use strum.

Ah. Well, fair enough, if you don't mind all your Puppets being half-dead.

That also isn't specific to Collodi - you can do it with any Neverborn crew that includes Vasilisa.

[Ludvig]

I wouldn't exactly fall off my chair if Collodi took a hit. It seems like masters that are dominating tournaments are primary targets. It only took two or three won tournaments for Sonnia to get hit pretty hard, I hadn't heard of any play group having trouble with her dominating every game except that one guy who had to go and win several high-visibility tournaments in a row and get her killed.   Ratspam was also big for only a tournament or two until american tournament players pointed it out. From a sloppy observation it looks like the american tournament scene drives errata at least to some extent so if he has been doing great there I'd be worried.

Collodi can use Illuminated which under a lot of circumstances have ml 6 4/6/7 or something. He could also give them several neat conditions to draw cards and heal and stuff. His trapper-changeling gunline list is also quite potent, especially since you can make all of those models just push out if anything attacks them with one of the effigies and the changelings can (0) to place away if you need to.

I would expect Nellie to take a hit as soon as we see guild placing high in most tournaments. Despite her being out it seems that still hasn't happened.

[Myyrä]

5 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I would expect Nellie to take a hit as soon as we see guild placing high in most tournaments. Despite her being out it seems that still hasn't happened.

Sorry for going off-topic, but I just have to bite. I think Nellie might be overrated. She literally has one good trick, and that's passing activations. Aside from that she does very little that some other Guild master doesn't do better. Passing activations is valuable in some matchups, but against another Guild player for example, it isn't going to do that much for you.

[Kadeton]

16 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

From a sloppy observation it looks like the american tournament scene drives errata at least to some extent so if he has been doing great there I'd be worried.

Given that Wave 5 has just completely overturned all previous Master power rankings, I wouldn't expect to see any major changes until the meta has shaken out again. Collodi didn't really change in power due to his new upgrades, while some other Neverborn received huge boosts - while he'll still be strong, I doubt he'll be dominant. The same can hopefully be said of Nellie, so that the other Guildies can get some games in.

It's also worth noting that, in Sonnia's case, nothing about her was actually changed. The unintended playstyle that was "corrected" out of the game was Papa-in-a-box. So, rather than being focused on "Take down whatever Master is winning tournaments," the approach is more "Take down whatever unintended mechanic is being most prominently abused." Currently, I see nothing to suggest that anything people do with Collodi is outside his intended playstyle, so he should be pretty safe in that regard. (If anything, I'd expect Illuminated and Trappers to take a hit before Collodi was even considered.)

5 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I think Nellie might be overrated. She literally has one good trick, and that's passing activations. Aside from that she does very little that some other Guild master doesn't do better. Passing activations is valuable in some matchups, but against another Guild player for example, it isn't going to do that much for you.

I've always found her main strengths were in healing and handing out Fast, both of which work extremely well with Guild Henchmen and are otherwise fairly rare in Guild. Passing activations is just the icing on that cake, since you're not as badly punished for taking a very "elite" crew.

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, Kadeton said:

It's also worth noting that, in Sonnia's case, nothing about her was actually changed. The unintended playstyle that was "corrected" out of the game was Papa-in-a-box. So, rather than being focused on "Take down whatever Master is winning tournaments," the approach is more "Take down whatever unintended mechanic is being most prominently abused." Currently, I see nothing to suggest that anything people do with Collodi is outside his intended playstyle, so he should be pretty safe in that regard. (If anything, I'd expect Illuminated and Trappers to take a hit before Collodi was even considered.)

How do the Austringer and Leveticus Cuddles fit into this neat model you have built?

1 minute ago, Kadeton said:

I've always found her main strengths were in healing and handing out Fast, both of which work extremely well with Guild Henchmen and are otherwise fairly rare in Guild. Passing activations is just the icing on that cake, since you're not as badly punished for taking a very "elite" crew.

One could argue Hoffman does healing and Fast better. He can also give out nimble and puppet the models to do stuff if he wants to.

[Ludvig]

25 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Sorry for going off-topic, but I just have to bite. I think Nellie might be overrated. She literally has one good trick, and that's passing activations. Aside from that she does very little that some other Guild master doesn't do better. Passing activations is valuable in some matchups, but against another Guild player for example, it isn't going to do that much for you.

That's sort or what I meant. If she's so damn good we should be seing guild sailing up through the rankings because I know plenty of guild players. The fact that we still rank in the dirt tier in most events says something about her power level. She has the fast Burt and Tav trick too but it kind of relies on not facing armor or other aggressive models that outrange them I think.

[Angelshard]

I think the main reason collodi is seen as really good is because gg17 suits him extremely well.

He can easily do the always and the suited schemes and interference, headhunter and extraction is right up his alley.

Add to that his double mask is one that can easily stop any big beater dead in its track for only 1ap. A crew that easily out activates and is still very resilient and you have quite a lot of salty tears.

[Kadeton]

4 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

How do the Austringer and Leveticus Cuddles fit into this neat model you have built?

Haha. It's perhaps a bit of a stretch, but here goes:

The Austringer changes were a side-effect of Lucius' changes. This basically came down to a sequencing problem - Austringers were marginally too strong when they were created, and then that strength distorted Lucius during his testing. As a result, his abilities were both underpowered and messy. When he was being revisited, one of the goals was to clean up the "non-Austringer" limitations. In addition, it was noted that Austringers' ability to attack from extreme range without LoS was overshadowing their "intended" gameplay, and producing negative play experiences. The Austringer changes were, in my opinion, a natural part of significantly boosting Lucius without creating an abusive, unintended playstyle.

Leveticus' playstyle was supposedly a kind of "scavenger" who picked on opportunistic targets, but due to his numerous re-writes during testing he came out simply unbalanced, and was played primarily as a ranged blaster par excellence. Since that wasn't "intended", it was corrected to something more appropriate to Justin's vision of him.

4 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

One could argue Hoffman does healing and Fast better. He can also give out nimble and puppet the models to do stuff if he wants to.

He sure can! The main difference is that Nellie can do what he does, but to non-Constructs. With the current spread of Guild models, that just happens to work out in her favour. Add the factors of not needing to bunch together so tightly, not getting utterly destroyed by Armor-ignoring attackers (though we'll see how that changes with Hoff's new upgrade), and being able to pass activations so that a low model count is viable... "Hoffman, but better" is pretty much exactly how I'd describe Nellie in three words.

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, Kadeton said:

He sure can! The main difference is that Nellie can do what he does, but to non-Constructs. With the current spread of Guild models, that just happens to work out in her favour. Add the factors of not needing to bunch together so tightly, not getting utterly destroyed by Armor-ignoring attackers (though we'll see how that changes with Hoff's new upgrade), and being able to pass activations so that a low model count is viable... "Hoffman, but better" is pretty much exactly how I'd describe Nellie in three words.

That would have been an apt description before the new upgrades. You do know that Hoffman can now turn any Guild model to construct?

[Kadeton]

Just now, Myyrä said:

That would have been an apt description before the new upgrades. You do know that Hoffman can now turn any Guild model to construct?

As I said earlier in the thread, "Wave 5 has just completely overturned all previous Master power rankings" and "the same can hopefully be said of Nellie".

[Ludvig]

@Kadeton

I think the austringers could have stayed exactly as they were and Lucius gain a buff anyway without him breaking the game. It would be unenjoyable but far from unbeatable. McCabe could already get massive amounts of work from a single austringer and the gremlin pigapult had more or less the damage output of double austringers obeyed several times at an even greater range.

The Sonnia list that won just happened to include double austringers and they were Cuddled a few months later. If they weren't supposed to attack at 18" then why write them like that? Even before that change there were plenty of situations where they were used to put down markers instead of attacking.

Leveticus double-channeling charge attacks was definitely unintended though.

[Ludvig]

Good point on the new upgrades shaking wvwrything up though. Between that and beta I'd hope for only minor errata to iron out weird interactions and no power-level erratas.

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that it is worth noting that Collodi got quite lackluster new Upgrades while other Neverborn Masters got some really sweet ones. I think that it can be pretty confidently said that Collodi got the worst of the Neverborn lot. There's a lot of flux going on currently so I, too, would wait until the dust settles until calling for further n€rfs. That said, I do think that Collodi could be toned down and still remain very viable.

[Strangely Brown]

5 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Colette can prompt any friendly. Abilities have to be compared by what they can do in faction. Colette being able to get 3 extra ml 7 min damage 4 with an execute attacks is much better than anything Collodi can do with My Will.

But Collette can't do that since the erratta, at least that was my understanding.

If they felt that was too powerful, maybe My Will will be looked at the same way?

[Angelshard]

I think the main difference is that you want to do other things with collodi than just spam "my will" all day long. Sure once in a while you make a stitched go crazy or lure spam with a beckoner, but I think it's quite rare that I spend 3-4 so on my will in a turn, especially on the same model.