Jump to content

New FateMaster - Frustrations


CrazyCatLadeh

Recommended Posts

This weekend I hosted Session 1 of our TtB game. It was a simple narrative of the group getting together on the train to travel through the breach, with just a bit of combat. I spent SOO long coming up with a session that involved notes from secret compartments, blackjack, conversations with important NPCs who were drunk, and a neat encounter with some prisoners being transported. The group was doing great, having fun, and enjoying themselves - until....combat.

Now, I had stressed - over and over and over - that it was important for the group to know their Fated. I provided them with extra script (via the storyline) to ensure they had armour and items to make their trip into Malifaux easier. Only one of them had taken advantage of that. So when it came to combat, we spent 45 minutes going through the book looking at weapon and armour stats. It was clear that my players were not prepared. But, I said that's fine, that we would do what we could for the session, and then they could return to their Fated and figure out items/skills (because they then wanted to change things) after Session 1. Since this is all new to us, I wanted to make sure they were playing characters they liked.

I had designed a fight with 2 peons and 1 minion. The peons were all meele, and the minion was range. This, I felt, matched well with my 2 melee Fated, and 2 ranged Fated. But the ranged could not hit for the life of them. The two melee decimated all three, and I had to rework damage because the 2 range decided to run in, and would have been squashed.

Aside from maybe making an encounter a bit too hard (which, when I asked them to provide feedback on the type of game they want, they ALL said, hard, threat of death, and combat with consequences), I'm not sure how to move forward. I stressed to them all that they need to use this experience to understand the steps of combat (which, baby jesus help me - was painful, even though I had sent a video and provided step-by-step cheat instructions to them) and the dynamics of their group/character. 

In fact, I had set it up so that they could have potentially avoided combat by using their environment and skills...but I think they're so use to the structure of D&D, that they jumped right in thinking that a level 1 encounter would be easy. 

Aside from this vent - I had a few questions.

I've read a lot and combat early seems mixed - that it can be extremely difficult, but sometimes super easy. Any tips on preparing combat encounters as well as preparing your players for the intensity/danger of the Malifaux combat? I really stressed that combat should be the last resort, and that NPC will be dangerous. 

How do you help people get outside of the "D&D" comparison. All my players are experienced D&D players and 3 of the 4 are vets in DM'ing (this is posing a bit of a "back seat driving" for my first time GM'ing ....but I can luckily tell my partner to 'shhh' or give him the 'not impressed eyes')...but after the combat the two most experienced DM's were quite critical of combat system (they were the two ranged who acted as melee and basically did no damage by were squashed). I want to get them out of thinking that the game needs to be similar to D&D...

Anyways - any help for a lonely and new FM who is in love with the game and wants to make a fun session for her players? :):)


Thank you in advance!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, tell those experienced D&D players and DMs: "One cannot add to one's cup if the cup is already full, Grasshopper!"

(I've been a [Whatever]master for 40 years - since 1977... this is the best advice I can give to anyone: toss out your old preconceptions and open up to learning this game!)

More to follow later, when I'm not sitting at work...! ;)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Sernus said:

Firstly, tell those experienced D&D players and DMs: "One cannot add to one's cup if the cup is already full, Grasshopper!"

(I've been a [Whatever]master for 40 years - since 1977... this is the best advice I can give to anyone: toss out your old preconceptions and open up to learning this game!)

More to follow later, when I'm not sitting at work...! ;)

That is such a great perspective - and I will say that to them!!

I'm not sure they've experienced being a "newb" in a game for quite some time! Thank you for taking the time to respond! I can use all the help I can get :D

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sound like you all are doing a lot of things right. I started playing AD&D in the 80's, and that game had so many charts and stats that the details sometimes got lost or forgotten. All these years later my friends and I talk about the Adventures we had together, the Modules we finished and the nights we were up till sunrise. TtB is meant to be a narrative-driven game where the Fated and Fatemaster work in concert. Balancing combat is probably a little more complex in TtB than in D&D, and many a FM has run awkward sloppy combat where the Fated just rolled the opposition. In the 2e Core rules, the FM gets a larger toolbox from which to draw in regards to Fatemaster characters starting on page 312. Minion and higher rank get Fate Points that may be used for various effect. The nice thing is, as FM you can decide when and which effects your fatemaster characters use, or if they should use then at all. This helps to start the combat at a higher baseline, while giving you the option of NOT spending those fate points if things seem too rough.

The RP games we love have distinct flavors that can be hard to shake, but it is worth it to get immersed in a new game. Lastly, former DM's turned player know better than anyone how bumpy the first few sessions can be. I know in my old D&D group everyone ended up with their own rule books which made looking things up mid-game much quicker, probably not a luxury you have with TtB. Make things memorable, and the details all float away anyhow.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will avoid revealing to much of my plans here as I know at least one, if not two, of my Fated that are starting their session 1 Saturday are watching *I CAN SEE YOU!*.

I would suggest teaching them the art of pain.  Not steam roll them but to feel that pressure of throwing themselves to quickly into a fight.  As Explorator already pointed out the Fate Points are important to adjusting a fight to add a bit of pressure when you want to make it feel a little tighter.  The Meanest use of this point is on page 313, under the Additional Fate Point Effects, the Competence one though it is limited to Enforcer or higher.  You can have that Enforcer when it charges use its Fate Point to put them at a negative for their first defense meaning they cannot cheat unless they had a positive *in which case don't use the Point*.  Suddenly having Defense 5 against a TN 11 seems risky and something like TN 12 or 13 is threatening even if it is just a single attack.  This can be mean at range to as they feel that guns are more threatening unless they have cover.

The same can be done to their attacks as you can use it on Defense.  Two teamed up on a NPC and they just about have it dead and they are throwing their last attack?  Use the point and have them realize that the cards in their hand are not helping.  Now even if they have it almost dead it is getting maybe one more chance to attack back.

And while this works for Enforcers there are ways for Minions to get similar results with the Focus and Defensive condition.  That terror tot knows it is going to get jumped when it activates first?  Have it advance and go defensive with its one Fate Point.  Now all their attacks against it are at a Negative for a turn soaking up their AP if people want to charge.  Or if the Fated are not using cover properly have the people with guns focus and shoot giving them a negative to their defense.  Once the players learn the enemy can be smart they will give them more respect.  Just don't over use it and pull it to far *if they are incapable of handling it*.

This is an example I was not planning to use on my group *at least not for some time* but it involved an Enforcer ranked long arm user.  Basically he would pin the players down in an open zone with little cover.  Using the wait and shoot action he would then use a Fate point to put them at a negative when he does shoot as they make a break for it.  At that point they would find out he has the Hobble Trigger built in to reduce them to only one walk action and no running.  Suddenly that character that thought they were double walking to the next piece of cover is now stuck in the open.  Sure they are likely to either take down or drive off the sniper with numbers *After all unless the sniper has back up they can likely let one person take the shot and try to rush* but it would drive home the respect for what a single enemy can do if they are in a bad place.  It also puts the fear of what would have happen had their been a second sniper working together *Now they can hobble two characters and with better range force them to come up with an actual plan*.  Of course the right answer might be for one to take it for the team, go defensive, and step out to draw the fire as Defensive will counter the Fate Point, but that would be them actually thinking and planning.

You can also introduce things like Fire Gamin or other things that you don't want to be to close to when they die due to exploded or hurting people that hit them in melee.  I am actually really proud of my players in that everyone seems to have some sort of option at range and up close *even though one lacks a gun for his skill, he at least has the skill for when he gets one*

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you both for the wonderful advice! I am just quickly dropping by at work - but will respond in full! My apologies for the delay - I have to say, I REALLY enjoyed reading and greatly appreciate the help! 

I've been lurking on this forum for some time, and am always so impressed by the community and helpfulness!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With regards to time spent looking up stats: you'll end up wanting to have a crib sheet with their specific weapons baseline stats on it. That way you'll know at a glance what the damage spread is. It falls on your players to keep track of their triggers during the game (if they have any, you'll also want to know what they are, but you'll be using that information for planning encounters). It's also not a bad idea to have their base AV for each attack type on the crib sheet.

Your players should have this information as well, and I'd be sorely tempted to figure out ways to motivate them to keep track of this kind of information (especially since they asked for combat).

It sounds like your Session 1 ended up doing something that I would normally put into a Session 0 (pre-campaign session where characters are generated and Fatemaster/Fated talk about what they'd like out of the campaign): sample combat. That being said, now that they've gotten a taste of it, they'll be better prepared to take advantage of "okay crew, you're about to head into your area of operations and your contact has forwarded you X script apiece (or otherwise opened their armory). Any last minute shopping trips?" hints from you. If there's some redesign/redistribution of starting stats going on, they'll be better able to handle a straight-forward fight.

D&D (and other similar systems) don't really have a taking cover or focusing your efforts mechanism that's native to their system. You have concealment spells/abilities that make it harder to hit in the first place by adjusting your target number and buffing spells/abilities that make members of your group do more with their turn, but there's nothing that is available to nearly everyone that can put other people on negatives/positives to do things. Years of *Ming in other systems can get in the way of merely playing, especially if people are used to the idea of level 1 encounters being "rat problem in the basement, go knock them out and build up some reputation and experience towards real challenges" or similar kinds of encounters (though, to be honest, Malifaux Rats in the basement are a serious problem, expect missing children and small adults). Part of that is because of something I mentioned in another thread: D&D (and similar) systems are meant to be epic-type campaign systems where the Heroes (PCs) are noticeably more powerful than the average person, even at level 1. In TtB, Malifaux is populated by very capable denizens, and often the only edge a Fated person has over a non-Fated peer is being Fated.

 

That all being said: why were they having trouble hitting? Were their hands terrible for cheating fate with? A peon has a a TN of 6-8 to hit normally, and if your Fated crew divided up their Ranged/Close Combat focus according to who would be most successful with each mode, then they should have AV of 1-3 (if not better, depends on their stats spread and whether or not they put at least one rank of (weapon) in). This means that they should be hitting on an average of 5 (3 best case, 7 worst case). It could be that they need to rethink how they break their group down for combat. The Fated with a -3 Grace should probably not be shooting at things, even if their Df seems too low to be on the front line as a melee fighter. Once your Fated and you are more used to the system, you'll find that using the expected average flip of 7 to determine how difficult something might be becomes easier and more reliable. That is: something that has a TN of roughly 7 above the AV of the people doing it is going to be roughly a 50-50 thing for them to be able to do.
In combat, this means that if the attack value of their opponent is Fated Df + 7 and defense value is Fated AV + 7, then the match is roughly even (except for weapons, toughness, and triggers) between the Fated and their opponent. Of course, one of the survival-oriented rules of combat is to never get into a fair fight. That's where the Fated will need to figure out how to work together to reduce/remove threats even as you use various tools as mentioned by @explorator and @EnternalVoid to keep the encounter both challenging and memorable.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

With regards to time spent looking up stats: you'll end up wanting to have a crib sheet with their specific weapons baseline stats on it. That way you'll know at a glance what the damage spread is. It falls on your players to keep track of their triggers during the game (if they have any, you'll also want to know what they are, but you'll be using that information for planning encounters). It's also not a bad idea to have their base AV for each attack type on the crib sheet.

Your players should have this information as well, and I'd be sorely tempted to figure out ways to motivate them to keep track of this kind of information (especially since they asked for combat).

It sounds like your Session 1 ended up doing something that I would normally put into a Session 0 (pre-campaign session where characters are generated and Fatemaster/Fated talk about what they'd like out of the campaign): sample combat. That being said, now that they've gotten a taste of it, they'll be better prepared to take advantage of "okay crew, you're about to head into your area of operations and your contact has forwarded you X script apiece (or otherwise opened their armory). Any last minute shopping trips?" hints from you. If there's some redesign/redistribution of starting stats going on, they'll be better able to handle a straight-forward fight.

D&D (and other similar systems) don't really have a taking cover or focusing your efforts mechanism that's native to their system. You have concealment spells/abilities that make it harder to hit in the first place by adjusting your target number and buffing spells/abilities that make members of your group do more with their turn, but there's nothing that is available to nearly everyone that can put other people on negatives/positives to do things. Years of *Ming in other systems can get in the way of merely playing, especially if people are used to the idea of level 1 encounters being "rat problem in the basement, go knock them out and build up some reputation and experience towards real challenges" or similar kinds of encounters (though, to be honest, Malifaux Rats in the basement are a serious problem, expect missing children and small adults). Part of that is because of something I mentioned in another thread: D&D (and similar) systems are meant to be epic-type campaign systems where the Heroes (PCs) are noticeably more powerful than the average person, even at level 1. In TtB, Malifaux is populated by very capable denizens, and often the only edge a Fated person has over a non-Fated peer is being Fated.

 

That all being said: why were they having trouble hitting? Were their hands terrible for cheating fate with? A peon has a a TN of 6-8 to hit normally, and if your Fated crew divided up their Ranged/Close Combat focus according to who would be most successful with each mode, then they should have AV of 1-3 (if not better, depends on their stats spread and whether or not they put at least one rank of (weapon) in). This means that they should be hitting on an average of 5 (3 best case, 7 worst case). It could be that they need to rethink how they break their group down for combat. The Fated with a -3 Grace should probably not be shooting at things, even if their Df seems too low to be on the front line as a melee fighter. Once your Fated and you are more used to the system, you'll find that using the expected average flip of 7 to determine how difficult something might be becomes easier and more reliable. That is: something that has a TN of roughly 7 above the AV of the people doing it is going to be roughly a 50-50 thing for them to be able to do.
In combat, this means that if the attack value of their opponent is Fated Df + 7 and defense value is Fated AV + 7, then the match is roughly even (except for weapons, toughness, and triggers) between the Fated and their opponent. Of course, one of the survival-oriented rules of combat is to never get into a fair fight. That's where the Fated will need to figure out how to work together to reduce/remove threats even as you use various tools as mentioned by @explorator and @EnternalVoid to keep the encounter both challenging and memorable.

Thank you for this excellent advice! I had planned on this being a small dip into the combat during Session 0 - but Session 0 took more time than expected. Mostly because we were working out of 1 book, and my players didn't come prepared with pursuits and potential skills. I know I will struggle with prep every session with this group - we're all juggling a lot, and we are all very casual players, but I am finding it frustrating that some people are equating the groups unpreparedness to issues with gameplay. I think this will be minimal once we get the hang of the combat, and we get our hands on more books (we now have 2! And I'm ordering 2 more!). 

Do you mind if I quote you on this to my players? I think this situates the system so well, and would really make things more beneficial to them: "D&D (and similar) systems are meant to be epic-type campaign systems where the Heroes (PCs) are noticeably more powerful than the average person, even at level 1. In TtB, Malifaux is populated by very capable denizens, and often the only edge a Fated person has over a non-Fated peer is being Fated."

As for combat - 2 of my players had really poor hands, and were drawing poorly. The other two really capitalized on their hands, draws, and also their skills - they were clearly looking to find creative solutions to combat. I think my other two players, while creative with non-combat play, were relying on this being more of a D&D roll/flip combat play. I think they realize now that it's not, and will approach things differently. 

I also suggested that in both dramatic and narrative time, they should be using skills and working their way through the fate deck so that I have to shuffle and they get more cards. After playing a round, I also suggested considering skills or actions that'll allow them to draw from their fate deck. These two players were relying mostly on the communal deck and adding any advantages to their combat flips, rather than thinking about how to incorporate cheating fate into play.

For the next round, I'm preparing a "Things to Consider" and will be distributing this before hand, and also going to be having a brief chat before the session to get the idea of how they'd like to play their character and how the group will work with that. I think the group dynamic conversation needs to be had. 

I'm also going to say that my own lack of knowledge with the game likely contributed to a few hiccups - but we're all learning! 

Thank you all again for your advice! The feedback has put the excitement back in me! I'm looking forward to planning our next session! And I'll admit, I was really disheartened after the last one!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CrazyCatLadeh said:

Do you mind if I quote you on this to my players? I think this situates the system so well, and would really make things more beneficial to them: "D&D (and similar) systems are meant to be epic-type campaign systems where the Heroes (PCs) are noticeably more powerful than the average person, even at level 1. In TtB, Malifaux is populated by very capable denizens, and often the only edge a Fated person has over a non-Fated peer is being Fated."

As for combat - 2 of my players had really poor hands, and were drawing poorly. The other two really capitalized on their hands, draws, and also their skills - they were clearly looking to find creative solutions to combat. I think my other two players, while creative with non-combat play, were relying on this being more of a D&D roll/flip combat play. I think they realize now that it's not, and will approach things differently. 

I also suggested that in both dramatic and narrative time, they should be using skills and working their way through the fate deck so that I have to shuffle and they get more cards. After playing a round, I also suggested considering skills or actions that'll allow them to draw from their fate deck. These two players were relying mostly on the communal deck and adding any advantages to their combat flips, rather than thinking about how to incorporate cheating fate into play.

Absolutely; I think it's an important distinction that goes with @Sernus suggested: people with a background in other RPG systems will need to unlearn what they used in those systems and approach with an empty cup. One of the things that helped me with bridging the gap from D&D to TtB is what I summarized, so if you think it'll help share it :)

In dramatic and narrative time the other thing that they can be doing is looking at their Pursuit's "On The Pursuit" ability. When I get home I'll double check, but I think all of the base Pursuits allow Fated to draw a card when they fail a specific skill check. Sure, it's limited, but it's going from 3 cards to 4 for failing a skill check related to their Pursuit. It makes sense (to me) for a [Pursuit member] to constantly being doing stuff related to their Pursuit. A Tinkerer is going to be constantly messing with things. An Overseer is going to be constantly trying to manage things.
Do they stop after they get their card? Well, as you suggested, they can keep working through the deck to force a reshuffle to draw another card. One failed skill check and one time through the deck during Narrative Time prior to Dramatic Time puts everyone at 5 cards (barring skills/abilities that grant additional cards). If they built their Twist decks correctly, the worst hand they can have is A-2-3-4-5, which gives them at least one card (if not 3 or more--it depends on their Acting Value*) that they could Cheat Fate against a peon-ranked non-Fated Character and land that hit. Everything else follows from there.

Entering into Dramatic Time with A-2-3 in hand and an AV of 1-2 means that you're counting on top-decking the hit against a peon with Df 6. For your Fated crew's combat characters they might want to consider Rapid Fire or Flurry as a General Talent. Top-decking a value less than 4 from a deck of 54 cards three times in a row has a probability of approximately 1.15%, where doing it twice in a row is approximately 5.45% (that roughly 1/20 that would be a botched roll in D&D, though card probability works differently than dice probability). Any other abilities that allow flipping more cards can help too.

Reminded myself: shuffling the deck when switching to Dramatic Time also draws a card, which means that the Fated who've been active during Narrative Time will be at a significant advantage with as many as 6 cards in hand during Dramatic Time. I need to double check whether the card cycle on failed checks is Dramatic Time only or not.

 

I'm glad that two of your players started thinking about creative solutions to combat early on. Hopefully the other two catch on fast and realize that it's not just pushing minis and rolling dice (or burning Feats/abilities for effects).

* I have to put in a caveat here, because the way traits and skills are picked, you can potentially create a 0-rank character that has an AV of 5+. This can skew a Fated character dramatically and will skew how combats go once they get into position to do their thing. For the sake of enjoyment of the game and development of the character, it's a rough start unless there's some kind of balancing things going on as well. For example, I flipped a tarot spread that gave me a +3 physical trait to allocate (which means that the other traits are 0 or worse) and +3 skill to allocate, which went into Speed and Martial Arts (potentially with trigger) respectively, but the character has no training of any kind in firearms and other weapons. He'll be a monster if he gets in close (hitting peons on a Black Joker), but he's useless at range and has a bit of a glass jaw. Two min damage hits from standard-issue pistols/rifles will start applying critical damage effects.
To challenge someone like him without making things too hard on the rest of the group: having some peons plinking him with firearms from a rooftop or cliffside will do wonders to encourage him to spend time getting tougher or learning a firearm. This sort of thing lets you keep your peon-level combats at peon level (Target Numbers of 6-8 as described in my earlier posting). It will also encourage more team work, as he'd die trying to climb the walls/cliffs or otherwise traverse the obstacles between him and the shooters by himself, and creative approach to combat, as he'd die if he gets caught in the open.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/14/2017 at 12:10 PM, spooky_squirrel said:

Reminded myself: shuffling the deck when switching to Dramatic Time also draws a card, which means that the Fated who've been active during Narrative Time will be at a significant advantage with as many as 6 cards in hand during Dramatic Time. I need to double check whether the card cycle on failed checks is Dramatic Time only or not.

Double checked: some of the card cycling is Dramatic only: magic users and guard specify "during Dramatic Time", where Drudges, Overseers, and others all do not specify time. The ones that don't get cycling during narrative do get it on duels that they're likely to be using in combat--which can turn them into card-cycling beasts in an intense combat.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@spooky_squirrel

Thank you so much for the tips and advice! I've added the "Pursuit Talent" draw to my list of things to remind my players for the next game. They certainly weren't using their Fate deck to their advantage, and I'm going to have to go through how they can trigger attacks with their lower cards. I know they were getting frustrated without really understanding that mechanic. I do wonder if there is some sort of gauge to know how many and at what level NPCs should be.

For a group of 4 Fated that are just starting out, is there a good range? A Minon and 2 Peons seems like a good balance, but I'm wondering if that would be too much! I know there's a bunch of contextual factors in play, but I'm wondering if there is some sort of typical mix for creating attack parties!

I've just been reading through Ghost House, and I'm so excited to tie that into our next session! I think it'll be a great next step and prep for the Innocence adventure! 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our group of 4 people started with an average combat AV of 5, so quite good.
Our first encounter was 3 low rank undead constructs minions and one with better stats.
This first fight was easy, but it allowed us to get comfortable with the fighting mechanics.

So I'd recommend you throw some easy stuff at them to get familiar with the system, get them to understand how and when to cheat, when to draw cards, when you should use a focus or defensive action. Maybe use those actions with your minions to show your players how it works.

Once everybody is ok with the game system and an easy fight, get some more challenge.

Something you can also do is start an encounter with a set number of ennemies and depending on how it goes, maybe have some reinforcment come to help one side or the other.

And make things fun for everyone. :P

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the guidance in the book is 1 opponent per Fated character that's on par with the Fated, plus a leader type. So if you're just starting out with a group of 4 Fated, 4 Peons and a high Minion (or low Enforcer) should present enough of a challenge where the Fated will want to work together to get through the fight. If your group has trouble with that ratio, you can provide an escape route or helping hand with a wandering good guy (location dependent; "good" is flexible).

Otherwise, if it looks like the encounter is going all too easily for the Fated, as @Le gob said: call in reinforcements for the bad guys. Another mindless zombie or two stumbling in from behind them will force them to split their attention, even if only briefly. A rogue soulstone driller erupting from the floor might be a decent miniboss in the encounter, especially since it's built to drill towards soul stones like the one or two that a spell caster may have purchased. What comes in depends on where you're at and how the scenes for that session are supposed to run (don't bring a zombie to a Neverborn fight, for example).

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CrazyCatLadeh said:

@spooky_squirrel

Thank you so much for the tips and advice! I've added the "Pursuit Talent" draw to my list of things to remind my players for the next game. They certainly weren't using their Fate deck to their advantage, and I'm going to have to go through how they can trigger attacks with their lower cards. I know they were getting frustrated without really understanding that mechanic. I do wonder if there is some sort of gauge to know how many and at what level NPCs should be.

For a group of 4 Fated that are just starting out, is there a good range? A Minon and 2 Peons seems like a good balance, but I'm wondering if that would be too much! I know there's a bunch of contextual factors in play, but I'm wondering if there is some sort of typical mix for creating attack parties!

I've just been reading through Ghost House, and I'm so excited to tie that into our next session! I think it'll be a great next step and prep for the Innocence adventure! 

Mindless Zombies are good practice opponents for getting a new group used to successfully hitting an enemy: a character only has to come up with a 6 on the Attack flip to match their Defense.  The MZs get an auto :-fate on damage flips, making them a little harder to take down, but they're Slow (only 1AP available), have bad Initiative and don't move quickly, so the players will mainly dictate the pace of engagement.  Characters also only need a 7 to avoid the MZs' attacks.  (They're much tougher in a Horde!)

Most of the other lower-level opponents (Minion (5) characters) will have Defense of from 8 to 10, and an Attack AV in a similar range, so they're the next step.  A player's Fated ought to find them more challenging, but not impossible, to hit and damage.  One Minion per Fated is a typical "starting-out" number, with some Minion (6) characters and/or an Enforcer (7) or two added as players get more used to the game's mechanics and their Fated get a bit of experience.

 

On the subject of Ghost House: that adventure can be a tough one for some parties!  Not only is the chief adversary a very strong opponent, the Fated can come out of that place being significantly Haunted...!

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Sernus said:

Mindless Zombies are good practice opponents for getting a new group used to successfully hitting an enemy: a character only has to come up with a 6 on the Attack flip to match their Defense.  The MZs get an auto :-fate on damage flips, making them a little harder to take down, but they're Slow (only 1AP available), have bad Initiative and don't move quickly, so the players will mainly dictate the pace of engagement.  Characters also only need a 7 to avoid the MZs' attacks.  (They're much tougher in a Horde!)

Most of the other lower-level opponents (Minion (5) characters) will have Defense of from 8 to 10, and an Attack AV in a similar range, so they're the next step.  A player's Fated ought to find them more challenging, but not impossible, to hit and damage.  One Minion per Fated is a typical "starting-out" number, with some Minion (6) characters and/or an Enforcer (7) or two added as players get more used to the game's mechanics and their Fated get a bit of experience.

 

On the subject of Ghost House: that adventure can be a tough one for some parties!  Not only is the chief adversary a very strong opponent, the Fated can come out of that place being significantly Haunted...!

That's why I use Mindless Zombies as a bottom rung opponent for introducing the combat system. They'll be interesting enough where the non-combatants in the group will care what they flip, but weak enough where piling a few more of them in isn't going to be too much for them to handle. Mixing in something that actually gets to use some of the other rules while having better stats (Minion (6)) and/or more ways to respond (Enforcer (7)) also helps underscore that TtB isn't mob grinding--there are things out there that are a significant threat to even well-prepared parties.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sernus said:

On the subject of Ghost House: that adventure can be a tough one for some parties!  Not only is the chief adversary a very strong opponent, the Fated can come out of that place being significantly Haunted...!

Oh! This is good info - Do you think it might be too difficult? I'm reluctant to move right into In Defence of Innocence, and thought that might be a good one! I have Night of the Carver that I was also considering, but thought Ghost House fit better with the arch I'm building. It was either that or Organ Donors. I have time to think about how it'll all fit in, but knowing that there might be some difficulties with GH is really helpful!

 

Thank you to all to the help! I feel as though the feedback is certainly giving me more confidence with how I structure the encounters, and knowing that I need to give the party some time to adapt and get out the wrinkles. I really like the idea of how to make it harder or easier - especially a "good guy"...who might actually turn on them! I also like the idea of using the NPCs as ways to demonstrate combat and triggers - I've been so focused on making sure the story and the lore are okay, and less focused on actually teaching (and learning!!) the mechanics. As a new DM/FM, I really appreciate all the help and things to consider/focus on!

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CrazyCatLadeh said:

Oh! This is good info - Do you think it might be too difficult? I'm reluctant to move right into In Defence of Innocence, and thought that might be a good one! I have Night of the Carver that I was also considering, but thought Ghost House fit better with the arch I'm building. It was either that or Organ Donors. I have time to think about how it'll all fit in, but knowing that there might be some difficulties with GH is really helpful!

You seem to have a penchant for wicked tough adventures, CCL... I like that!  :D  

Ghost House and Night of the Carver can both be really hard on Fated crews... especially if there are players who don't get that there are definitely times when one needs to just turn and run away!  There are some tough opponents,  and tough situations, in both of them... folks who tend to just dig in and fight might get significantly damaged.  In my view the Carver is the (relatively) easier of the two.

Organ Donors is also a little easier than Ghost House... or would be, if it weren't for everyone starting out stark naked, unarmed, and with no idea where they are...  :P  This one falls into the "most times, probably best to just run away" category, too, I think!

The above being said, if you feel like Ghost House is the best fit for your plans, then Ghost House it should be!  It might teach your D&D-indoctrinated folks to embrace the Breachside saying: "This is Malifaux... Bad Things Happen..."

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Sernus said:

You seem to have a penchant for wicked tough adventures, CCL... I like that!  :D  

Ghost House and Night of the Carver can both be really hard on Fated crews... especially if there are players who don't get that there are definitely times when one needs to just turn and run away!  There are some tough opponents,  and tough situations, in both of them... folks who tend to just dig in and fight might get significantly damaged.  In my view the Carver is the (relatively) easier of the two.

Organ Donors is also a little easier than Ghost House... or would be, if it weren't for everyone starting out stark naked, unarmed, and with no idea where they are...  :P  This one falls into the "most times, probably best to just run away" category, too, I think!

The above being said, if you feel like Ghost House is the best fit for your plans, then Ghost House it should be!  It might teach your D&D-indoctrinated folks to embrace the Breachside saying: "This is Malifaux... Bad Things Happen..."

Thank you for the smile! I think I've unknowingly set my Fated down a hard (but fun!) path! They did ask for a difficult game, so I guess I'm giving it to them! 

I believe I am experiencing FM FOMO - I want to do ALL the adventures! I have just become so engrossed with the world and stories of Malifaux! I was never like this with D&D - and to be honest, I might have a bit of regret that I didn't force my partner to FM so that I could play :D ((However, we did just order Into the Steam, which I outright said - "This is for you, so I can play next time!" )) I am just so impressed by the writing and richness of the world! I love it! And Ghost House and Night of the Carver are just thematically up my alley!!

It's good to know that there are potential bumps that I should watch out for, and that I'll stress to my players! I've already heard them chattering about what they could have done in the dramatic time during our last game to avoid combat! I might have done an internal "hurray" when I heard it!

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Tomorrow night I do my second session of TtB! I'm so looking forward to it! I've given it much thought, and I'm going to run Ghost House. I think that'll be a great introduction to combat, really demonstrate the nastiness of the world, and is the perfect tie to the larger story I'm doing. 

I know some of you have mentioned it's a tough adventure, and there's been some GREAT feedback on why. My players are super new, we did a session 0 last time, so I'm wondering if you have any advice or specific tweaks to the adventure! 

I'm so excited! :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/6/2017 at 3:08 PM, CrazyCatLadeh said:

Thank you for the help!!

Tonight was a no-go, so we play tomorrow! 

I enjoyed making the maps, and I think it's going to be fun. What are peoples' thoughts on fudging or changing stats or conditions in an adventure? 

Fudging/changing stats has a couple of thoughts from me:

  1. You're the FM, it's your game. What you decide the stats are, they are. If your group has one or more rules lawyers who are looking up bestiary information and trying to contradict you, refer to the first sentence.
    1. It's easier to defend this stance if the stats are modified before the game starts, and you've got an opportunity to draft story-based reasons that will placate the rules lawyers without having to pull the FM card.
    2. If you're improvising and changing stats in the middle of the game session it's a little harder to defend because you're improvising. Prepare a cheat sheet ahead of time for why it is NPC X might have a different set of skills and traits than their template--it helps you remember what their motivators are as well as providing other story bits that flesh it out. Malifaux is a strange place, and people find themselves with latent powers and other oddities. Earthside scholars who studied under Marcus would not recognize the man he is now.
    3. If the only stat you're changing is their Rank value, that modifies all TNs the Fated have to meet. It's a difficulty setting. Similarly, if you're adjusting the NPC's Station, it changes how they can affect a challenge without changing any other information (Enforcers can modify two flips in an Encounter, where Minions can only do one without needing to use tactical actions). These are easy changes that require no real justification (other than adjusting difficulty).
  2. Be internally consistent if you're modifying how things work/interact. Rules lawyers will be rules lawyers. That's how they end up generating negative play (and social) experiences. If you have one in the group, it's a good idea to preemptively handle them. It can be nice sometimes to have someone remind you of a mechanic or trick you can use (there's webcomics dedicated to this), but it can be derailing at the same time if they disrupt story flow to 'correct' the FM because there's stuff the FM fudged to make their story work. They'll have no traction with the rest of the group if you're being consistent as the FM and the story sessions are interesting and enjoyable. The consistency part is why I've isolated out some points above; notes from you to yourself guiding you on your liberties taken allow you to be consistent with those liberties.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Fudging/changing stats has a couple of thoughts from me:

  1. You're the FM, it's your game. What you decide the stats are, they are. If your group has one or more rules lawyers who are looking up bestiary information and trying to contradict you, refer to the first sentence.
    1. It's easier to defend this stance if the stats are modified before the game starts, and you've got an opportunity to draft story-based reasons that will placate the rules lawyers without having to pull the FM card.
    2. If you're improvising and changing stats in the middle of the game session it's a little harder to defend because you're improvising. Prepare a cheat sheet ahead of time for why it is NPC X might have a different set of skills and traits than their template--it helps you remember what their motivators are as well as providing other story bits that flesh it out. Malifaux is a strange place, and people find themselves with latent powers and other oddities. Earthside scholars who studied under Marcus would not recognize the man he is now.
    3. If the only stat you're changing is their Rank value, that modifies all TNs the Fated have to meet. It's a difficulty setting. Similarly, if you're adjusting the NPC's Station, it changes how they can affect a challenge without changing any other information (Enforcers can modify two flips in an Encounter, where Minions can only do one without needing to use tactical actions). These are easy changes that require no real justification (other than adjusting difficulty).
  2. Be internally consistent if you're modifying how things work/interact. Rules lawyers will be rules lawyers. That's how they end up generating negative play (and social) experiences. If you have one in the group, it's a good idea to preemptively handle them. It can be nice sometimes to have someone remind you of a mechanic or trick you can use (there's webcomics dedicated to this), but it can be derailing at the same time if they disrupt story flow to 'correct' the FM because there's stuff the FM fudged to make their story work. They'll have no traction with the rest of the group if you're being consistent as the FM and the story sessions are interesting and enjoyable. The consistency part is why I've isolated out some points above; notes from you to yourself guiding you on your liberties taken allow you to be consistent with those liberties.

This is great advice! And I agree about rule lawyers! Our second session went MUCH smoother. I altered the stats of all NPCs in the same way - but I just realized that the issue we were having was me reading the TN of NPCs in correctly. I was adding Will AND Def plus rank - so no wonder they could never hit.....I feel so silly! But thank goodness for everyone on here!

The entire group LOVED the feel and story of Ghost House! We made it half way through! I added in a few additional elements (e.g., recordings of ghosts! Letters! Puzzles!) and really worked out the maps so it was similar to our D&D play. I felt this would be a good session to really focus on the combat mechanics, as well as situations where they had to utilize their talents rather than fight. I was so pleased and impressed by my players! They did great - and they all said afterwards that they really are starting to see how things are coming together in TtB and how they're nicely different than D&D.

I'm glad we made it over the hump, and we're all accepting that we need to work out some wrinkles (myself majorly!!) but also accept how it's NOT going to be D&D 5e!! I think we're also really liking the guided nature of the adventures. We're use to playing a very open world in our RPGs, and the layout of the story and session allows for some exploration, but also it's a nice guided story!

I have to say that we are all enjoying TtB - and I can see it being a staple in our RPG rotation once we all learn the mechanics a bit better.

Next session will be focused more on flushing out the magic/spellcasting in the game. We are getting there!

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i might be a bit late with this but here it goes. 

first of all it all starts with both the players and the FM. as a player you should have basic knowledge of the game and know your character (!). 

even though some are perfectly good GM/FM/*M's, those same players SUCK at being a players just BECAUSE they are *M's. They want to compare and they should never do that. 
As a player 1 should know a couple of things: 
1) Who am i and what do i want
2) how did i get here
3) most importantly what can i do, what are my skills (stat wise and role play wise)
4) just enjoy the story and play your character.. don't try to change up things or simply say. well thats a stupid mechanic..  

the FM should know what its party is. TTB is a narrative oriented system and is in my opinion heavily player biased in combat. (i had a guy create an invested character with av7 in heavy melee with a greatsword that deals... 3/5/7? damage or so session 0) 
 

Comparing D&D with TTB..... is like comparing apples with a frigging steak. its both food, but there completely different in taste, texture and food group! 

I had 1 guy kicked out of my campaign after 12 sessions.. because he kept on moaning about the system. he could not get his head arround that he could not roll dice, that in D&D there was this mechanic. and that he thought it was BS to switch between "classes". as stated by many above. its a different kind of game. 

The mechanics are hard to grasp IF you are stuck with D20-D100 system in your head and think every RPG is a dungeon crawler or combat oriented game. 

+ 1 extra FM thing. IF somehow you as a GM screw up BIG time, and make a fight WAY to hard. give them an extra nudge. Malifaux is world filled with Magic and monsters/creatures. if you made it to hard. Do a bit of a divine intervention and let a random NPC/Creature/spirit/.... apear to help them. something that works with the story of 1 of your players

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information