Kaeris in Wave 5

[RhiaCat]

I have to say, I'm very surprised that I haven't seen more discussion of the upgrades that Kaeris got in Wave 5. 

Heat Wave seems like it could go a long way in making her a threat - as far as I know, Heatstroke is one of very few abilities in Malifaux that hands out negative numbers to stats rather than negative flips, and the only time they have to resist it is giving them burning - which Kaeris has a Ca7 on, which makes it VERY hard to resist. I think that it's going to make Kaeris into a terrifying model against Elite Crews or in pools where you have to kill large enemy models like Masters or Henchmen. Giving a model -1 to all of their duels is very good already (Nekima would be much worse if she was Ml 6 and Df 4!) and the fact that with a single AP (And a stone or a high tome) you can give a model -3 to all of its duels for the turn and -1 for the next turn is very scary. 

Flaming Angel goes a long way into making Kaeris incredibly Mobile, and you get pretty solid action efficiency with movement + handing out burning with a single AP. Handing out Burning in an AoE off of immolate isn't bad either - it gives her a way to hand out mass burning for Heatstroke, and it gives her a way to easily hand out burning to models with high defensive stats - the same trick Sonnia uses to kill high defense models by blasting off of nearby low defense models.

I think that it's really going to shine against factions with little condition removal (Ressers, Neverborn, Gremlins?) and I think it really boosted her playability. As a big fan of Kaeris lore-wise, I'm super excited.

What are your thoughts on her new tools?

[retnab]

At 2ss I don't think Flaming Angel is an auto-take, but the Swoop is darn good stuff.  Needing a 7's not so bad, especially since it gives unresistable Burning which is something that gives a big boost to Gunsmiths and her Immolate and Accelerant actions.  Good if you're planning on playing her a bit more aggressive IMO.  The trigger's a bit more niche since it only affects models around the target instead of the target itself, but good to have for when it comes up.

Heat Wave is amazing.  It does take a lot of setup and it's not something you want to use on all targets (why put them at -3 when 3 damage would kill them, for example), but against models with Armor or enemies who otherwise wouldn't be hurt by the Burning in the first place it's super good.  Especially so on something like an enemy Rail Golem, extinguishing its engine and putting it on -3 potentially for multiple turns would be a nightmare for that player.  Again it requires a much more aggressive Kaeris, but the potential for just ruining an enemy summoner's day is amazing.  I'm thinking this might be my new drop into Ressers, as long as you scalpel out Chiaki ASAP.

[Bengt]

There is some discussion in this thread:

 

[Mxbedlam]

5 hours ago, retnab said:

At 2ss I don't think Flaming Angel is an auto-take, but the Swoop is darn good stuff.  Needing a 7's not so bad, especially since it gives unresistable Burning which is something that gives a big boost to Gunsmiths and her Immolate and Accelerant actions.  Good if you're planning on playing her a bit more aggressive IMO.  The trigger's a bit more niche since it only affects models around the target instead of the target itself, but good to have for when it comes up.

Heat Wave is amazing.  It does take a lot of setup and it's not something you want to use on all targets (why put them at -3 when 3 damage would kill them, for example), but against models with Armor or enemies who otherwise wouldn't be hurt by the Burning in the first place it's super good.  Especially so on something like an enemy Rail Golem, extinguishing its engine and putting it on -3 potentially for multiple turns would be a nightmare for that player.  Again it requires a much more aggressive Kaeris, but the potential for just ruining an enemy summoner's day is amazing.  I'm thinking this might be my new drop into Ressers, as long as you scalpel out Chiaki ASAP.

I feel the opposite honestly. I think that Flaming Angel is almost an auto take even at 2ss. Mobility + burning without any way to resist is amazing. Easy to set up gunsmith shots and kill that model at 1 wound without spending an AP just on attacking them. The trigger is pretty amazing for getting burning on your own models that want it like Carlos who are engaged with that model or vs someone like Sandeep who has a pile of models near each other. 

Heat Wave has the problem of competing with Grab and Drop and while I think it is incredibly solid, its usefulness is limited to time when models will be close enough to grab a few in the blast at a time. I will definitely be using it in games like Guard the Stash, Squatters and Turf war. Anything that wants models to clump up. Getting a model to even -2 df vs something like a gunsmith is huge for pumping out that big damage. This will be an upgrade I comeback and look at in 3-6 months after I've gotten some real play with it and see where it stands. 

[KingCrow]

It's been about a year and some change since I last played Kaeris but she always struck me as a fun and versatile master.  I usually played her as tanky master using the upgrade to get 7 Df and just putting burning on all the things to try and summon Fire Gamin.  Employing this type of playstyle, Heat Wave will be AMAZING to use in these situations.  I do like the mobility that Flaming Angel offers along with that trigger to just spread even more burning.  I feel like Heat Wave build will be perfect for strategies that revolve around pocket-style games (or throwing burning on Carlos to then spread it to those around him) and Flaming Angel is better for when things are more spread out.  Either way, they both sound fun!

[hydranixx]

Agreed with Mrbedlam. Heat Wave seems really powerful but being Limited makes it so much less appealing since we'd have to cut Grab and Drop to include it. Wings of Fire is so good when you set things up adequately that I'll feel lost without it.

I will give Heat Wave a go all the same, probably with Blinding Flame and Flaming Angel. I think it'd be imperative that Kaeris get exactly where she needs to be to use Heatstroke, and if you can't get enough burning to reduce something's stats to nothing, have something else you can fall back on. For me that'd be Blinding Flame's "you can't declare the charges" trigger to push enemies away to free Kaeris or add some charge-denial control from range. I reckon the combination would make her a capable control piece. 

Flaming Angel is going to be stapled on her card for me. It primes friendly models for Truth in Flames card draw or a Wings of Fire set up or enemy models for basically anything that relies on Burning, effortlessly, while letting her get wherever she needs to be. Heat Stroke will see the most obvious benefit from it, but I also think it'll be sweet to use immediately after you use (0) Grab n Drop. I'm already visualising Kaeris landing from Grab n Drop in the perfect spot to line up a row of enemies and push through all of them, then throw some Immolation action at them.

[Jordon]

Heat wave is a game changer for Kaeris and the only thing that holds it back is the fact that it's limited (and rightly so). With all three of her limited upgrades you have three very distinctive ways to play her now. 

The awesome thing about Heat Wave is that it's universally applicable. Lowering a models duels affects everything that model does. It makes the affected model more vulnerable to attacks as well as lowering their own effectiveness with their own abilities. Whether it be a summoner, a brawler or support model, this ability will work. 

Flaming Angel lets her play the scrapper role more effectively. She can get in and get out of trouble to make the best use of accelerant or simply to engage models on your own terms. With the auto burning from swoop as makes for easy setups for accelerant or immolate as well as setting up your own models for her other limited upgrades.

I do feel like you'll be seeing more of Kaeris as she's probably amongst our most versatile masters second to Sandeep. 

[RhiaCat]

I played a game with Kaeris earlier, and while I didn't win (Misaki's new Blast Anywhere upgrade is bonkers. AND it ignores armor? I got all but tabled turn 2 after mispositioning, whoops.) I think that had I won initiative the turn I got tabled, I would have likely tabled my opponent. I can't paralyze models, but kneecapping them for a turn and then giving them a lingering penalty the turn afterwards is ridiculous. 

I wasn't super impressed with Blinding Flame to be honest, but I will trust the opinions of those who play Arcanists much more than I do. 

I'm glad we're seeing Kaeris get an upgrade that opens up a more offensive playstyle for her than her other two limiteds, which I feel made her take more of a support role in her crews. The big thing that pushes me towards Kaeris is how much she can do that plain doesn't care about resists from your opponent. With flaming angel and heatstroke, you're looking at easily debuffing multiple models without any way to resist it. Once people figure out how to play with it well, I think we're looking at a much stronger Kaeris.

 

ALSO: How important do you all think the Emissary Upgrade is on her? I always find myself craving instinctual..

Edited September 11, 2017 by RhiaCat

[Mxbedlam]

Don't. Emissary is just not a good model overall. Kaeris easily out distances it and you find yourself feeling forced to activate the Emissary early so that you can get the Instinctual off of it for Kaeris which isn't always the best play. For maximum efficency you want to activate the emissary in the late so that your opponent has less cards in hand and it will hit easier. All in all that 10 points is better spent on other models and instinctual is nice but kind of a trap. 

[RhiaCat]

5 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

Don't. Emissary is just not a good model overall. Kaeris easily out distances it and you find yourself feeling forced to activate the Emissary early so that you can get the Instinctual off of it for Kaeris which isn't always the best play. For maximum efficency you want to activate the emissary in the late so that your opponent has less cards in hand and it will hit easier. All in all that 10 points is better spent on other models and instinctual is nice but kind of a trap. 

That's what I figured, but I wanted to double check since I haven't played Arcanists in AGES (I've been a guild and ressers traitor whoops)

[Mxbedlam]

35 minutes ago, RhiaCat said:

That's what I figured, but I wanted to double check since I haven't played Arcanists in AGES (I've been a guild and ressers traitor whoops)

personally, I love the model and want it to do well but the only place I've found a regular home for it is in Raspy and that might change if I play her with the summon upgrades. For Kaeris though, she has turned into a denial master for us and she really needs activations which are hard to get when you already have Carlos at 9 SS in the crew. 

 

[RhiaCat]

31 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

personally, I love the model and want it to do well but the only place I've found a regular home for it is in Raspy and that might change if I play her with the summon upgrades. For Kaeris though, she has turned into a denial master for us and she really needs activations which are hard to get when you already have Carlos at 9 SS in the crew. 

 

I love Carlos, but I'm not sure how much he warrants a place with Kaeris. He gets us burning, sure, but I'm not sure he's super great. His movement tricks are good but not great, and the burning is not super bad. I have having to pay for his upgrade since I'm not Colette.

[spooky_squirrel]

With Heatwave affecting duels, it might be worth putting together a controlling kind of crew for pulling models out of position or otherwise messing with their ability to contribute to the scenario. Amina Naidu comes to mind with her ability to lure, to force targeting, and to turn things into peons. Similarly, Performers might find some time on the table with Kaeris to help exploit those lowered stats and put models on negatives or lure them out. If you're running with Carlos and one of these aggravating models dies near him, you get Reactivate on Carlos. Just in case he wasn't getting enough work done for you.

With regards to the Emissary: it's 10 stones of some beating ability plus whatever the upgrade you take grants--I never got any use out of instinctual on Kaeris, though I've gotten plenty of use out of the Conflux upgrades for Mei Feng and Ironsides (the push and 1+ Railwalk marker allows me to use the Emissary like a jackhammer and with the new upgrades for Mei Feng can open up some shenanigans; Toni getting people pushed into her before she activates spikes the adrenaline higher, and she can use her lure effect to pull the Emissary 10" up without worry, giving it an effective threat of 22"). Ramos' Conflux is essential for getting him on board with everything that Ramos can do (Under Pressure, for instance)--but it's a 10 stone model. If it doesn't have a job on the table that plays to the scenario or supports the main effort in a meaningful way, it's not be the right tool for the job.

[Mxbedlam]

24 minutes ago, RhiaCat said:

I love Carlos, but I'm not sure how much he warrants a place with Kaeris. He gets us burning, sure, but I'm not sure he's super great. His movement tricks are good but not great, and the burning is not super bad. I have having to pay for his upgrade since I'm not Colette.

Well Kaeris can passively bump up his burning rating to make him a super tank. He's nigh unkillable. He has a ml 3" to tie models down. I'd say paying 1ss for his upgrade isn't the worst thing you could do. 

[Jordon]

I actually really enjoy the emissary. Not necessarily because of his upgrade with Kaeris but just in general I find him to be an incredibly versatile model. He's probably the most tool box high cost model we have access too as he can push models, apply burning, remove characteristics, charge really far, give out free AP, remove markers, give slow, heal itself while also having 2 Ca actions (both of which have no ) and one that cannot be reduced or prevented. That alone is worth it's 10ss cost to me. 

However I do also understand that you take other models with a more defined purpose to accomplish a singular goal better than this model. It just all depends on how you want to play. I personally love versatility so I think this model is great. 

As for how it performs with Kaeris specifically. I personally like it most with G&D as you can use that huge 10" charge to fly over the enemy crew and get right at their squishy support models and even knock them out of supporting range using his relentless charge. I think instinctual is amazing for Kaeris but can be difficult to use given it's limited range. 

[Adran]

15 hours ago, RhiaCat said:

I love Carlos, but I'm not sure how much he warrants a place with Kaeris. He gets us burning, sure, but I'm not sure he's super great. His movement tricks are good but not great, and the burning is not super bad. I have having to pay for his upgrade since I'm not Colette.

You can get away without buying the upgrade if you play Purifyign flame and are in a relatively localised game. But The upgrade is well worth the stone just for the scheme marker removal. 

But Carlos is solid without the burning interactions, as a relatively tough model that controls the board

[spooky_squirrel]

Burning aside: Carlos has a 3" engagement and a solid charge range. This lets him get places and lock down regions of the board. He can bring Stunt Double, Practiced Production, or both (depending on what you need him to be doing for the schemes). For 1 AP and a 7+ (top deck or cheat) you can discard a marker 8" away from him, which means that with his (0) push and Walk of 5 he can quickly maneuver from a central position to deny your opponent a VP for schemes like Leave Your Mark. PP needs no introduction: if you need a scheme marker somewhere on the table, this will get it there for you (within certain limitations).

This makes him generally useful. Add in the only Burning you should be counting on (his own, on him) and he becomes much tougher (up to Armor +2) and can potentially hit much harder (min damage 5 on a single hit). This makes him quite good at holding a single point. For example: in GG2017 you could put him on the cold Guard the Stash marker and force your opponent to give up the strategy or split their forces, making it so that the cold marker is actually quite warm, even as the bulk of the fighting and maneuvering is still on the hot marker (assumption: you and your opponent focus most of your forces on one Stash Marker and just have a token model or two camp near the other to score it during the early game; the one you're actively fighting over is hot, the one you're both camping on is cold; after the crux turns where momentum shifts to favor one crew over the other, this no longer applies).

Carlos in Grab and Drop Kaeris might seem a bit of a liability, as he wants to keep his burning as long as he can and doesn't need the help dropping scheme markers. He could potentially help support it with his own abilities however (not as cost-effective as using Malifaux Child to copy Kaeris' fiery play or even The Firestarter's), but if you're hiring him it should be for a job that plays to his strengths for the scenario (3" engagement, 7" charge/5" walk, 4" push, 40mm base, Armor +1/2). In Purifying Kaeris, you don't need a card left in hand to support Stunt Double if he's close enough to Kaeris, and you can take advantage of his walk/pyre marker interaction without having to spawn a pyre marker of his own first.

 

[hydranixx]

Though Carlos is undoubtedly a fantastic choice for Kaeris, I don't think it's a fair assessment to say he is 'nigh unkillable". Somewhere between Armour+1 and Armour +2 and self healing at turn's end if he's got Burning? He's as prone as the rest of our faction to models that ignore armour, which usually show up in abundance once we declare Arcanists. Condition removal also looks like it'd absolutely ruin him near the end of a turn. 

I'll be trying out Kaeris with both new upgrades tonight, if anything interesting eventuates I'll post the details.

[RhiaCat]

On 9/13/2017 at 6:08 PM, hydranixx said:

Though Carlos is undoubtedly a fantastic choice for Kaeris, I don't think it's a fair assessment to say he is 'nigh unkillable". Somewhere between Armour+1 and Armour +2 and self healing at turn's end if he's got Burning? He's as prone as the rest of our faction to models that ignore armour, which usually show up in abundance once we declare Arcanists. Condition removal also looks like it'd absolutely ruin him near the end of a turn.

The Armor ignoring is the big thing for me. With almost every faction getting more and more ways to ignore Armor, he's not all that tanky in my experience.

[KingCrow]

While the armor does help make him tanky, it's more the fact that he heals from burning with his upgrade attached that enables him to survive so much.  If you throw a bunch of burning on him (and don't use the trigger to get rid of it or use it as extra damage) then you can heal him for quite a bit at the end of the turn.

[WWHSD]

On 9/13/2017 at 11:47 AM, spooky_squirrel said:

Carlos in Grab and Drop Kaeris might seem a bit of a liability, as he wants to keep his burning as long as he can and doesn't need the help dropping scheme markers. 

 

If you do have Carlos in a crew with Grab and Drop Kaeris, it shouldn't be that hard to keep him 6 inches away from her. Even if you can't, it doesn't stop Carlos from spending his burning to inflict extra damage.

Fun Fact: If Kaeris drops an enemy model just at the edge of Carlos's melee range and then places herself 2 inches away there will be just over 6 inches between her and Carlos.

[D6Damager]

So besides, Carlos, Emissary, & Gunsmiths what other models are people taking with Kaeris?

[spooky_squirrel]

5 hours ago, D6Damager said:

So besides, Carlos, Emissary, & Gunsmiths what other models are people taking with Kaeris?

If I'm running Grab and Drop I like to bring things that eat scheme markers for effects, like Large Steam Arachnids. For snacking on a scheme marker (free, when meeting the G&D stuff) as a (0) action, they get dialed up.

[retnab]

+1 to that, LSA's with Grab & Drop work great with the amount of Scheme Markers around.  Some people don't like them but I think a couple Fire Gamin for some cheap damage/burning/'s work fine for their points.

[trikk]

7 hours ago, D6Damager said:

So besides, Carlos, Emissary, & Gunsmiths what other models are people taking with Kaeris?

I had a brief run with Kaeris that I`m continuing and I would never take Gunsmiths with her TBH. If the Hard Way would either be built in or give positives to damage I`d use them but 2/3/4 is a pretty meh damage track.

 

I played her with Joss, Myranda.Cerberus, Oxfordian mages and even Hoarcat Pride.

 

Now I really want to try Carlos and Kandara.