Mindless Zombies - Most powerful unit in the game?

[Rob Lo]

Evening, ladies and gents. I'm just now coming back to my first love of Ressers. I've been looking at all the new bits we've dug up over the past few years. Here's my current "Am I reading this right?"

Carrion Emissary with Nico's upgrade is on the board. Asura Roten is within 12" watching the action. Our most loyal of minions, the mindless zombie is there, surrounded by 3 of his mindless friends, getting ready to smash some over confident sod, who happens to be standing near 2 quarantine markers. He borrows Asura's Ml6 attack, gets boosted by +3Ml of moral support for his mindless entourage and effectively another 2 for the noxious quarantine zone markers for a total of, basically...

ML 11 Mindless Zombies???

[Kinginyello]

Mindless zombies dont gain +1 ml from quarantine markers. Only thing mindless zombies get is a trigger on grabbing hands require target to be  <=3" from marker.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ummm yes they do. When they take her Undead Minions action anyway.

[Kinginyello]

Haha, this is what i get for not reading thoroughly. Dang. Quite strong.  Ml 11 is quite nuts. And a + flip from nico on attacks and maybe damage flips.

 

List now composed of mort (mlh, corpse bloat), asura, emissary, vulture (stop slow), and just all the dogs to dig bones. Summon as many steeds as possible to charge and generate corpses.

End game with 50 bajillion mindless zombies.

[ttsgosadow]

extra fun if you add nico's avatar. Did that during a league, and without Asura it's silly already. <3

[hydranixx]

Is there not a -1 Ml penalty if they borrow her attacks? Or was that removed during beta? Not that only Ml10 wouldn't be enough haha... It sounds filthy and I'd totally try it.

If you can get to turn 3 or 4 without losing any key models you'll reach critical mass and just chew through every model on the board.... But, the crew seems to have very little bite initially and is extremely dependent on Asura and the Emissary being in the right place (and still alive) by the time you reach critical mass. ... if the opponent brings the fight to you with a powerful alpha strike list... Without Asura or Emissary alive I can't see us recovering when they're in our face beating us up.

Still super keen to try it 

[Fetid Strumpet]

No. They lose the in built crow. That's all.

[Nutella]

So I tried this out in 4-5 (some were weird story-league scenarios) games and it’s been very fun! I’ve been using these core models for any scheme pool just to get a feel for how it plays out:

 

Nicodem

• Maniacal Laugh
• Buzzards

Asura

Emissary

• Conflux of Death

2x Necropunks

Rogue Necromancy

 

 

Between the Shards and Mindless Zombies, it's very easy to control movement on the table while also providing a nice bit of threat with the zombies. The amount of times in a game where Asura’s attacks end up being a major influencer hasn’t been as high as I originally expected to be, but on average, the zombies end up hitting around ml9. Also anything that can alpha strike one of the two key models hurts quite a bit, and because neither of the models are undead, Nico has a tough time supporting them. Because of this, I end up playing the Emissary and Asura in a cagey manner until the zombie horde is established. 

One difficulty I’ve run into is figuring out how to score my secondary scheme after claim jump with this setup.. this is probably a mixture of needing more practice with the models and a side effect of playing it into sub optimal scheme pools.

Other fun things discovered while playing:

- Necropunks with leap, flurry + taking Asura's attack

- Buzzards removing slow on the Mindless Zombies is great, supporting Nico during Mwahaha activations is also great

- the 14 wp duel has some neat synergy with rogue necromancy.. haven't fully utilitized it though

Has anyone else been playing around with super zombies?

[Paddywhack]

3 minutes ago, Nutella said:

- Necropunks with leap, flurry + taking Asura's attack

You do know they only get 1 attack at Asura's level, right? It certainly helps, but doesn't let them get 3 attacks at 2/3/4.

You'd get one at 2/3/4 and the other two at 1/2/3. So most likely 1 additional damage. Not bad, and certainly makes it more effective, but not a powerhouse. Just making sure you read it right.

I'm not sure the super zombie is worth all the extra effort, but that just might be because I dislike the same play-style over and over. I rarely take the same crew multiple times. I can see it being strong if you can get things running, but as you noted it is fragile to losing a linchpin. Nicodem is probably best at this due to his aura for removing Slow from the MZs -that really ups their effectiveness. 

Have you taken the Superior Undead upgrade yet? That way you can keep Asura alive even longer if need be. 

[Daysleeper]

2 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

You do know they only get 1 attack at Asura's level, right? It certainly helps, but doesn't let them get 3 attacks at 2/3/4.

You'd get one at 2/3/4 and the other two at 1/2/3. So most likely 1 additional damage. Not bad, and certainly makes it more effective, but not a powerhouse. Just making sure you read it right.

...

I was wondering about this because my english is not good enough. I wasn't sure if they could only use one of her actions one time or only one of her actions per activation, so no grabby hands and punching in the same round from one model but possibly two punches or two grabby hands.

[Paddywhack]

Just one action period. So only one punch or grab per friendly model. Not two. Think of each AP as an action if you like. You get to use one AP to use one of Asura's ML actions. 

Again, useful for low strength models like MZs and Necropunks, but does not make them overpowered.

At least that was my reading of it - does anyone else disagree with that interpretation?  

[Nutella]

3 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Just one action period. So only one punch or grab per friendly model. Not two. Think of each AP as an action if you like. You get to use one AP to use one of Asura's ML actions. 

Again, useful for low strength models like MZs and Necropunks, but does not make them overpowered.

At least that was my reading of it - does anyone else disagree with that interpretation?  

I originally understood it how you did, but after discussing with a couple people in my group, we were still confused and ended up going with you choose one of the actions and cant take the other for that activation. I feel like you're correct and the intention was likely 1 attack per activation period.. and I'll likely start playing this way from now on. I'm also interested if anyone has opinions on whether you can use these attacks as part of a disengaging strike?

[Adran]

17 minutes ago, Nutella said:

I originally understood it how you did, but after discussing with a couple people in my group, we were still confused and ended up going with you choose one of the actions and cant take the other for that activation. I feel like you're correct and the intention was likely 1 attack per activation period.. and I'll likely start playing this way from now on. I'm also interested if anyone has opinions on whether you can use these attacks as part of a disengaging strike?

I've only got the playtest file, and I know the wording changed, but that only allowed you to use the actions during their activation.

Likewise, it allowed you to take 1 action, not copy 1 action and use it as much as they like. 

 

[Rob Lo]

Residents of Rottenburg: Friendly Undead models within 12" and LoS may take Ml Actions printed on this model's stat card, but they can only take one Action printed on this model's stat card per activation and cannot declare triggers.

 

It's definitely possible to be confused. It says you can "take" actions from this card, but can only "take" one action per activation. Both of those use the work take, it's just whether the second take should have been "declare", or did it really mean "you can take and use, but only take one and use".

My group has had that same discussion and based it only on the outcome of "do we really think every undead thing in a 12" bubble was supposed to have a minimum Ml6 2/3/4 attack to pull from from now on, replacing whatever attacks they've had up til now?" Probably not, so we went with the more limited definition. Personally, I'd love to hear the more open interpretation was right, but that's just silly.

And I love that people are trying this. I haven't had a chance to yet. It's as close as I'll get to what I was really hoping for from Nico's new upgrades before we knew what they were, a true swarming mindless horde of zombies, giving up his normal summoning to only be able to make loads of otherwise weak bodies.

 

 

[Daysleeper]

I remember people talking about the Necropunk-Flurry with 3 improved attacks during the beta and nobody said that wouldn't work - at least as far as i remember.

 

[Paddywhack]

38 minutes ago, Daysleeper said:

I remember people talking about the Necropunk-Flurry with 3 improved attacks during the beta and nobody said that wouldn't work - at least as far as i remember.

 

I remember I questioned it  or thought I did. I still believe it's one action, not 'as many times of one action as you want'. If there is confusion we may have to try and get a consensus on the correct interpretation. 

[Nutella]

I'd like to see an FAQ for Asura regarding disengaging strikes as well.. The way the ability is written looks as if it went through quite a few iterations to get where it's at, and doesn't really resemble any familiar abilities to use as a comparison. So until there is an FAQ, i'll likely be playing the model in the most conservative interpretation.

I do have to admit that the main value I saw with Asura was in the ability to have a ton of zombies with high stat disengaging strikes.. and if it's possible to do that multiple times in an activation, then the model isn't costed appropriately. 

 

[Daysleeper]

56 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I remember I questioned it  or thought I did. I still believe it's one action, not 'as many times of one action as you want'. If there is confusion we may have to try and get a consensus on the correct interpretation. 

Oh, ok.
I think maybe the designteam could give us an official answer that player could be pointed to if they wonder how the rule was meant to read

 

[Paddywhack]

I tend to take the less powerful option as the most likely one, but I have been wrong in the past. Once I have the book in hand I can ask in the Rules forum for a vote. 

[Adran]

From that wording, you can use it for disengaging strikes (well for 1 disengaging strike per activation). You are still only allowed to take 1 action from her card each activation. Making 2 hands from below attacks would require you to take 2 actions from her card, so not allowed. 

 

[Paddywhack]

But Disengaging strikes don't happen during your activation. Wouldn't that be a problem? 

[hydranixx]

If it's legal for each MZ to borrow her attack twice per activation... I can almost hear the rage from my community already. As soon as I declare Nicodem... let the tears flow 

[Fetid Strumpet]

They can't. In order to use undead minions or the hands below consulte the following:

Is it the model in question's activation? 

No, then you may not use Asura's ML actions.

Yes, continue below.

 

Has the model in question used either undead minions or the hands below this activation?

Yes, then you may not use Undead Minions or the hands below again.

No, then you may take either action.

 

[Adran]

14 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

They can't. In order to use undead minions or the hands below consulte the following:

Is it the model in question's activation? 

No, then you may not use Asura's ML actions.

Yes, continue below.

 

Has the model in question used either undead minions or the hands below this activation?

Yes, then you may not use Undead Minions or the hands below again.

No, then you may take either action.

 

Sorry Disagree. Assuming Rob Lo has the text correct.  Nothing in the above posted wording says they can only use it in their activation. It says that they can only take 1 action per activation, but that means they could take 1 action during Models A activation, one during model b's activation as well as one during their own activation. Each is a different activation. The Playtest files did limit it to their own activation, but that appears to have gone.

If it is Bobs activation, and Bob is engaged with a mindles zombie. Bob declares a walk action and the zombie chooses to declare a disengaging strike. It  can choose to use Undead Minions for the strike. If it hits Bob can use his second AP to walk away again, and whilst the Zombie can declare a disengaging strike, it can't use Undead minions because it has already used 1 action this activation

[Fetid Strumpet]

He doesn't, it's closer to this:

Residents of Rottenburg: Friendly Undead
models within 12" and LoS may take Ml
Actions printed on this model's stat card at -C
Ml during their Activations, but they can only
take one Action printed on this model's stat
card per Activation.

It's a permissive rules set. It says you may take the action once during your activation. Nothing in the text says you may take it at any other time.  And the reason for the wording is most likely because otherwise a player could use Belle Bombs to generate a positively obscene amount of attacks at ml 6 2/3/4 dmg. If I'm remembering the open discussions correctly, and I wasn't paying that much attention, I seem to recall the Belle issue, or more correctly the Pounce ability issue, being the exact reason the ability works the way it does. Specifically so one can't spam belles and get such a high dmg output.