Ophelia - positive sensations

[edopersichetti]

Hi all

This is just a quick post which wants to be encouraging for the future of Gremlins and in particular some of our most underplayed masters. I had a game with Ophelia yesterday, after a veeeery long time, and I tried some of the new stuff: the result was overall quite encouraging indeed.

Namely, I tried both of the new upgrades, plus Big Brain Brin. I fielded a Kin-heavy crew:

Ophelia
Francois (Stilts)
Pere
Raphael
Merris
Big Brain Brin
2x Young
Lenny
Bayou

So lots of experiments there. I wanted to try Raphael too, following @Math Mathonwy's suggestion. Experiment only half-worked, since he spent the second half of the game in a Death Marshal's box...still, on the flank, I can see why he could be a force to be reckoned with.

Anyway. I was facing a tough Perdita crew, but had a good time with it - I was expecting much more trouble. Big Brain Brin turned out to be very useful: the deck stacking (0) action is nice, and his attack is ok, but he really shone in his condition removal action. At the crucial time, he removed the nasty condition from Perdita, you know, the one where she gets to shoot back at you if you shoot/charge at her. This was the game-winning moment - Dita was killed pretty quickly after that. He's REALLY fragile so he tends to hang in the back, which is per se not a problem (lots of pushes in the crew) but all his abilities are very short range (6") so he gets exposed then. To be handled with care, I'd say, but definitely useful. Condition removal, and canceling triggers can really be game-changing. I think he'll be competing for a spot with Sammy - both 7SS support henchmen, and they do a few things differently.

Even with the Cuddle to his  buff, I found Lenny still useful, because with this crew everyone was Ht 1, and the 10" Toss is quite effective. Add that to Ophelia's own movement tricks (see below) and the crew was extremely mobile. I like mobile crews.

Francois munched through my opponent's entire left flank with his usual style, killing in succession a Death Marshal, an Austringer, and Abuela. And he was still alive after that...which brings me to my next point.

The new upgrades both proved to be quite useful. The Useless Junk in particular, can be extremely effective. You get to place the marker anywhere in LoS, so if Ophelia is in a good location, she can always find a spot to place it. Then, the 6" push, heal 2, and free scheme marker are quite nice. Francois used this twice, for example, so healed 4 (which is great on him!) and got quite a bit of extra movement. Even Merris used this once - her crazy scheme-running got even more crazy. Overall nice. Of course, you can only do this a limited number of times since you have to discard upgrades for it, which means you have to use her guns. Since one of the 3 upgrades on her is this one, and the other one is likely the Metal-Lined Coat, you only have 1 gun attached so you'll find yourself doing this usually once, or at most twice a turn. Still, it gives you a reason to use her guns (I guess this was the designers' idea), which aren't that bad after all. With 2 Youngs, I could always reload them anyway. Youngs are also nice for the cheap activations, plus their pistols actually chipped away at Perdita a few times (next to Lenny, that is 2 min damage, thanks again @Math Mathonwy for the idea).

So, the Coat. Given that Ophelia has a nice range of (0) actions, Instinctual is quite good. For example, she can "Ooo a Girl" push someone 8", and then place him within 8". This happened Turn 1 when she essentially slingshotted Pere in the middle of Perdita's happy family....muahahaha (let's not mention the fact that Pere missed his attacks all 3 times...)
The upgrade doesn't do much else, and does occupy one of the 3 slots though (I never had to use Plink).

The key to winning the game was the numbers (I had 10 models, he had 8) which is essentially thanks to the Youngs, and the extreme mobility (Ophelia and Perdita were afraid of each other and spent lots of time hiding, but Pere, on the other hand, didn't have this problem :D)

Overall, I have positive sensations about Ophelia and her upgrades - they can both be useful. I don't know if this makes her competitive, but she is a bit more viable, I think. Her upgrade-cycling is not perfect yet: for instance, she doesn't have a way of discarding her upgrades by herself, unless she actually shoots her gun (I had to shoot my own model once just to be able to use the Junk upgrade and drop a marker). Also, her limit upgrade of 3 is a big limitation if 2 of those slots are "static". Someone suggested (I think it was @wizuriel) that her guns shouldn't count towards her 3-upgrade limit: this would make a lot of sense IMHO. So if she is equipped with the Coat and the Junk, or Liquid Bravery, or anything else, those count...but she can carry all 3 guns at the same time anyway. This would really optimize her upgrade-cycling and make her competitive. After all, the designers seem to want to go the upgrade-cycling route with her, so why not? In my dreams, I'd like to see this in the next errata

[PolishSausage]

I 100% agree about her upgrades not counting to her limit ( look at new Tara upgrade)

Also all her gun upgrades should be cost of 0 so she can start with the equipped (instead of starting the game with young equipping them and looking clunky)

[Rosskov]

I found using ooh and girl and the 8 inch place to be great fun. Particularly when you Do it to François, place him within 6 and companion activate him.  

Just think of it like a gremlin sling shot

[Finalscene]

I absolutely love the new upgrades for Ophelia, particularly with Sammy and pere. Sammy is great fun and the new trash push makes me actually want to take her in my LaCroix crews. She needed a bit of extra movement and that's what useless junk gives her. Ophelia having instinctual from metal lined coat also makes pere ravage much better also. Ooh a girl to pull him forward then jug rocket to launch him forward can put him directly into the opponent's crew which is awesome. Also the kin push can allow young LaCroix to place schemes which is cool because it makes them 2 stone scheme runners for not too much effort. Overall I think these upgrades made her much more competitive.

[Finalscene]

Btw, does anyone have any ideas on what to use for the trash markers? I'm thinking broken gun pieces or big moonshine bottles with gun grips to show she tried to use it and realized it wasn't the gun she thought it was.

[edopersichetti]

On 8/31/2017 at 12:02 PM, PolishSausage said:

I 100% agree about her upgrades not counting to her limit ( look at new Tara upgrade)

Also all her gun upgrades should be cost of 0 so she can start with the equipped (instead of starting the game with young equipping them and looking clunky)

Yeah I don't really see the distinction as necessary since she will never ever actually pay for them...perhaps if Sammy was tempted to carry one (why?)

But glad to see I'm not the only one thinking they shouldn't count for her limit. She could actually make the upgrade-cycling mechanics work pretty well - at the moment, if she carries both of the new upgrades she only has one slot open for a gun, and no way to discard either of the two new ones unless by using Plink. Also, if she wanted to carry some other useful upgrade like Liquid Bravery or Stilts that would be great...

Here's hoping the designers are listening right now

[edopersichetti]

17 hours ago, Finalscene said:

Btw, does anyone have any ideas on what to use for the trash markers? I'm thinking broken gun pieces or big moonshine bottles with gun grips to show she tried to use it and realized it wasn't the gun she thought it was.

That would be pretty awesome and please share some pics if you do go that route! I was thinking to do something similar myself!

[Math Mathonwy]

4 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Yeah I don't really see the distinction as necessary since she will never ever actually pay for them...perhaps if Sammy was tempted to carry one (why?)

My Threatening Gun is superb for Sammy as the (0)Action lets her order Ophelia (even to shoot since Ophelia's positive twist cancels out the negative). An extra AP for Master is always welcome!

[Dominion]

5 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Yeah I don't really see the distinction as necessary since she will never ever actually pay for them...perhaps if Sammy was tempted to carry one (why?)

But glad to see I'm not the only one thinking they shouldn't count for her limit. She could actually make the upgrade-cycling mechanics work pretty well - at the moment, if she carries both of the new upgrades she only has one slot open for a gun, and no way to discard either of the two new ones unless by using Plink. Also, if she wanted to carry some other useful upgrade like Liquid Bravery or Stilts that would be great...

Here's hoping the designers are listening right now

you can always start with only stilts/liquid bravery and 2 empty slots.

young A reload 2 upgrade

bayou gremlin A (or another model willing to spend 2 AP turn 1) attacks 2 times = 2 trash marker

young B reload 2 upgrade

bayou gremlin B attacks 2 times = 2 trash marker

young C reload 2 upgrade

Sammy Attacks 2 times (poison don't apply if you use plink) = 2 Trash marker + a push/move for Ophelia

that's 6 trash marker turn one (that you adversary can't remove) that can you use during the game
and you still have to activate Ophelia

 

[tmod]

From every update taking a slot to guns not taking slots, how about letting her take up to three guns in one upgrade slot? Similar to Jack Daws curses (IIRC, are there others?), so already a precedent in the game. In that way she can load up at the beginning should she want it, and can always have two upgrades in addition to guns...

[Math Mathonwy]

54 minutes ago, Dominion said:

you can always start with only stilts/liquid bravery and 2 empty slots.

young A reload 2 upgrade

bayou gremlin A (or another model willing to spend 2 AP turn 1) attacks 2 times = 2 trash marker

young B reload 2 upgrade

bayou gremlin B attacks 2 times = 2 trash marker

young C reload 2 upgrade

Sammy Attacks 2 times (poison don't apply if you use plink) = 2 Trash marker + a push/move for Ophelia

that's 6 trash marker turn one (that you adversary can't remove) that can you use during the game
and you still have to activate Ophelia

Note that Useless Junk says "when this model discards another Upgrade" (emphasis mine) so if in that sequence you'd need to discard the Stilts/Liquid Bravery. The sequence is also 12 AP which is rather a lot even if it is from cheap models.

[Dominion]

25 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Note that Useless Junk says "when this model discards another Upgrade" (emphasis mine) so if in that sequence you'd need to discard the Stilts/Liquid Bravery. The sequence is also 12 AP which is rather a lot even if it is from cheap models.

you are giving those 12 AP to you KIN models (push, heals and markers) so they are not entirely wasted, and from turn 2 onward you will use them to score points for scheme/strategies (and young still on reload/shoot duty)

plus you'll get activation control that is always nice.

the "another upgrade" is the MEH :\ point

you can't start with upgrades other than Ophelia's.

uff

[Math Mathonwy]

3 minutes ago, Dominion said:

you are giving those 12 AP to you KIN models (push, heals and markers) so they are not entirely wasted, and from turn 2 onward you will use them to score points for scheme/strategies (and young still on reload/shoot duty)

plus you'll get activation control that is always nice.

Oh aye, I worded it a bit too harshly - didn't mean that the suggested sequence was worthless or anything - far from it! Just that it is quite costly in AP and therefore probably not suitable for all situations. Of course nothing forces you to do it six times.

[Dominion]

Just now, Math Mathonwy said:

Oh aye, I worded it a bit too harshly - didn't mean that the suggested sequence was worthless or anything - far from it! Just that it is quite costly in AP and therefore probably not suitable for all situations. Of course nothing forces you to do it six times.

she will be a supprot master that gives "free" AP to KIN models by transforming it from lesser models

dropping a trash marker is 2 AP action (reload + attack) 
a push  + marker + heal 2 is a little more than 2 AP.

it's only a matter of playing and seeing how many markers are needed during a game and where

so more playing and less talking!
 

[Finalscene]

I've tested the "shoot off her upgrades with friendlies" option a bit and it worked pretty well. I used one young LaCroix to shoot her so I could place a trash for another young to score leave your mark. I had expected my opponent to go after Ophelia since she didn't have cover but he decided to kill Francois instead. It can be good situationally, I think. I've also found that 2 trash per turn is optimal since it requires the least amount of effort with the most reward. 

[edopersichetti]

12 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

My Threatening Gun is superb for Sammy as the (0)Action lets her order Ophelia (even to shoot since Ophelia's positive twist cancels out the negative). An extra AP for Master is always welcome!

I did use this once or twice, but it seems to be reducing the options for her...so not 100% sold

[edopersichetti]

8 hours ago, Dominion said:

she will be a supprot master that gives "free" AP to KIN models by transforming it from lesser models

dropping a trash marker is 2 AP action (reload + attack) 
a push  + marker + heal 2 is a little more than 2 AP.

it's only a matter of playing and seeing how many markers are needed during a game and where

so more playing and less talking!
 

I followed your back-and-forth carefully

The sequence you suggest looks expensive - indeed, you get 6 markers all together that can't be removed, but perhaps using all those AP and models in the first turn is a bit too much. Those models might also wanna move after all  
It probably just depends on the situation and crew you're facing. Certainly adds to the utility of Youngs, which are already pretty valuable. In the game I played, even having 1-2 trash markers per turn was very useful, and they can be dropped "on the go", as in sometimes Ophelia will actually want to use those guns - they aren't bad, one ignores cover, the other ignores LoS etc.

The only issue that I see and repeat is that if she wants to have both Useless Junk and Coat constantly equipped (for dropping markers and instinctual) then there's only 1 slot available for gun cycling, or actually 0  if she wanted to carry Stilts/Bravery etc. (which are often quite useful).

That's why I think it would be nice to have the guns occupy no slot (see Tara), or perhaps just a single slot as @tmod suggested. The whole thing would run a lot more smoothly.

8 hours ago, Finalscene said:

I've tested the "shoot off her upgrades with friendlies" option a bit and it worked pretty well. I used one young LaCroix to shoot her so I could place a trash for another young to score leave your mark. I had expected my opponent to go after Ophelia since she didn't have cover but he decided to kill Francois instead. It can be good situationally, I think. I've also found that 2 trash per turn is optimal since it requires the least amount of effort with the most reward. 

I have to admit I haven't tested that yet, it's a neat idea. What I did in the game above when I needed a trash marker was use a gun to shoot a friendly, but using Plink with a model with weak damage 1 (or 2 if discarding Coat) also works. And yes, as I mentioned above using 2 trash per turn seems a good measure. I also hadn't thought of it as a mean to score VPs, I was seeing it more as a way to move+heal your Kin (for example to get Francois/Pere in striking range). So this is another cool suggestion - something more for me to try!

So I'm quite happy with this feedback and ideas from the community!

[Math Mathonwy]

57 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

I did use this once or twice, but it seems to be reducing the options for her...so not 100% sold

Options for Ophelia or for Sammy?

[edopersichetti]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Options for Ophelia or for Sammy?

I meant options for Ophelia...granted, she has 2 more guns and the other 2 upgrades, but she might still want to use this. I'll try it again.

[Finalscene]

The only gun upgrade I use with her now is the jug rocket. The O action place is really good for pere or Francois and the actual attack is good damage and ignores LOS. The hooch igniter is good for blasts but I don't like it's damage. In my crews Sammy is usually there holding the threatening gun. I don't mind only having the one. It's usually enough, plus her rough riders are much better

[Runeman]

I don't think I'd ever give Sammy the threatening gun or the Jug Rocket, simply because those two together gives Ophelia so many sweet options. Like giving Francois focus and then place him and even chain activate into him, allowing him to pull two focused attacks from an otherwise safe starting position, and still herself being able to shoot. Also I would not underestimate the ability to force TN 13 horror duels. In particular when the Youngs can get the required ram from Lenny to make it happen in a pulse.

I'd probably be more inclined to give Sammy the Hooch Igniter in particular matchups where I think the risk of getting slow and/or paralyze seems relevant. It is the gun that seems most situational, but also most important in those situations where it does apply.

On paper, I consider Ophelia to be one of our best masters now. She is so unpredictable and versatile with a lot of movement for her crew and several interesting offensive options, in particular because her Young can also utilise those guns. Sure, it would be nice if she could have one or two upgrades more, but already she has so many options, and she is not tied into any of them at the start of the match.

[lame0]

10 hours ago, Runeman said:

I don't think I'd ever give Sammy the threatening gun or the Jug Rocket, simply because those two together gives Ophelia so many sweet options. Like giving Francois focus and then place him and even chain activate into him, allowing him to pull two focused attacks from an otherwise safe starting position, and still herself being able to shoot. Also I would not underestimate the ability to force TN 13 horror duels. In particular when the Youngs can get the required ram from Lenny to make it happen in a pulse.

I'd probably be more inclined to give Sammy the Hooch Igniter in particular matchups where I think the risk of getting slow and/or paralyze seems relevant. It is the gun that seems most situational, but also most important in those situations where it does apply.

On paper, I consider Ophelia to be one of our best masters now. She is so unpredictable and versatile with a lot of movement for her crew and several interesting offensive options, in particular because her Young can also utilise those guns. Sure, it would be nice if she could have one or two upgrades more, but already she has so many options, and she is not tied into any of them at the start of the match.

Yeah I dont think shes that great....I'm still thinking Somer, Zipp, Ulix, Mah, and wong are better. In particular why would I take her over Zipp? master to master Zipp seems quite a bit better overall because although Ophelia has the better totems Zipp has better cc, movement & abilities. Also Zipp's new upgrade makes him way more mobile and gives his bayous mini incite.

Also Ophelia and her kin are pretty good but since shes kind of locked into kin & she cant get cards or buff her crews combat in some way leads to her crew being card starved which I think masters like mahh, somer, zipp, & ulix help deal with in one way or another. Don't get me wrong I still think shes cool and fun to play, but I don't see her replacing anyone in my top 4 Somer, Zipp, Wong, & Ulix.

[wizuriel]

One thing Ophelia does better than the top 3 imo is she is tankier.

Most gremlin Masters at best have 1 df trick (and usually a trigger to push out of combat). If opponent can disable triggers they are in trouble. Wong has armor but iirc kind of meh df stats and has trouble getting out of combat.

 

Ophelia not only has a good df trigger, but good stats and plink to shrug off some damage. Also she doesn't mind being up close and personal as she can easily get double . 

Though she is also ht1 and can be devoured .

 

Personally I would put her as our 5th best master and hope she gets a little buff in January (please make reload or her guns ignore upgrade restrictions)

[lame0]

2 hours ago, wizuriel said:

One thing Ophelia does better than the top 3 imo is she is tankier.

Most gremlin Masters at best have 1 df trick (and usually a trigger to push out of combat). If opponent can disable triggers they are in trouble. Wong has armor but iirc kind of meh df stats and has trouble getting out of combat.

 

Ophelia not only has a good df trigger, but good stats and plink to shrug off some damage. Also she doesn't mind being up close and personal as she can easily get double . 

Though she is also ht1 and can be devoured .

 

Personally I would put her as our 5th best master and hope she gets a little buff in January (please make reload or her guns ignore upgrade restrictions)

well the issue with that is that every master has access to dirty cheater to heal up but she cant if she wants to use her new upgrades well. This leaves her in a weird place where she needs to give up one of three things 1) dirty cheater. for tankyness 2) useless junk. which probably needs two other Ophelia upgrades otherwise you can only make 2 markers 3) metal lined coat. If you take Useless Junk & dirty cheater then metal lined coat gets worse because you only have the (0)s on her card and although sometimes thats fine that ruins her flexibility.  

So if she had even one more slot she would feel good but as is its so hard to find a decent balance so she just feels weird. Granted she doesn't NEED dirty cheater but without it she kind of loses that tankyness advantage.

I mean if she could take her "Ophelia" upgrades without them counting towards the total she would be a pretty great tank master with stilts, dirty cheater & liquid bravery.(I think she would be top 2-3 for sure)  So lets hope but till then I don't see it. 

[Runeman]

I wouldn't give her Dirty Cheater anyway. Her crew likes it much more than she does, and she has at most three actions to cheat each turn, and she has kind of easy access to +-flips on her attacks, so cheating is less likely to be the best solution. 

I don't have book 4, so I don't know about Zipp, but comparing defensive stats, she has the most number of wounds - tied with everybody but Zoraida and Ulix, the highest defense, probably the third best defensive trigger (Zipp and Som'er are clearly better) and the best or second best damage reduction, which also allows her to help some of her crew, should she use it. And at the same time, she is clearly the one most likely to have Lenny nearby if she so wishes, and that would give her far superior damage reduction, alternatively she could keep a slop hauler around using Ooo, A Girl, which would instead give her some healing. I really think the ability to move some of our slower pieces around should be factored into her "tankiness", and I think all things considered, she is the most survivable master we have currently.

The only upgrade I could really see her taking is liquid bravery, and if she had one more slot or all her guns went in the same slot, I'd seriously consider it. But I also see it as a positive that she doesn't want to spend a lot on upgrades, as she seems to like to spend a lot on models.

I did have my first game with her in quite a while today, and I got to use the new upgrades. I didn't play very well and my opponents crew was a bit silly, but I got a sense of how much those upgrades add, and it is a lot. Healing, scheming and movement to a friendly model as a side effect of taking a shot with minimum damage 3. Not many masters can top that. She does have the problem of being kind of locked in her crew choices, as she really relies on having Kin around, but her crew will usually be pretty killy and mobile.