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If you were writting te next erratta....


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She did get such an enormous boost with her "fix" Upgrade that she actually might have a niche now. An 8" Push at the start of the turn at the "cost" of discarding and then drawing a card is bonkers and the ability to get 4" Melee reach is pretty amazing as well. With Disguised (again at the "cost" of refining your hand) means that she can be insanely annoying. And with Diving Charge she can get practically anywhere to place that giant melee bubble. Still not quite on the level of Zipp (targeting Ht is silly good bypassing all Triggers and the Place is just crazy as hell) but at least she now does some things better than him, I think.

It would be nice to combine some of ther Upgrades as Sausage suggests but I think that she is now in a pretty fine place. I think that Brewy is the most in need of help and he could be helped by introducing models that are good at dealing out Poison. Maybe those Whiskey Gamin that were shows at Gencon? I dunno, I'm feeling optimistic when it comes to our Masters.

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7 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

She did get such an enormous boost with her "fix" Upgrade that she actually might have a niche now. An 8" Push at the start of the turn at the "cost" of discarding and then drawing a card is bonkers and the ability to get 4" Melee reach is pretty amazing as well. With Disguised (again at the "cost" of refining your hand) means that she can be insanely annoying. And with Diving Charge she can get practically anywhere to place that giant melee bubble. Still not quite on the level of Zipp (targeting Ht is silly good bypassing all Triggers and the Place is just crazy as hell) but at least she now does some things better than him, I think.

It would be nice to combine some of ther Upgrades as Sausage suggests but I think that she is now in a pretty fine place. I think that Brewy is the most in need of help and he could be helped by introducing models that are good at dealing out Poison. Maybe those Whiskey Gamin that were shows at Gencon? I dunno, I'm feeling optimistic when it comes to our Masters.

I really wish the aim for the sore spots lasted until the end of her turn. That extra Mi range isn't nice when the model you try and lock down just walks free if they win initiative. 

Doesn't Get off My land also deny Mah (or anyone using it) the ability to interact? While I agree the upgrade is a massive boost for her, I still don't see any situation Mah would be a better pic than Zipp.

 

Defense

Zipp has better defense with his DF/WP trigger

 

Attack

Mah even with redefining her hand gets an 8" push at the start, 4" melee (for a 1 action) which if you stone gets her a charge to cover an additional 6". Granted this way she can get 4 attacks on a target. With aim for the sore spots she will have a +2 on most models and with luck during initiative can get a +3

Zipp with earl and hovering airship (using :mask masks from Earl) can shoot someone 12" away followed by an 8" walk with flight. With range 2" on his drop attack he can threaten a model up to 10" away and move them out of place while ignoring most triggers and armor. Targetting HT most of the time will have a +1 on them

So Mah can do more raw damage, but Zipp can more reliable do damage. Mah can lock down models easier though until the next round. Giving the edge slightly to Zipp

 

Support

Zipp wins this pretty easily imo. Pseudo chatty annoys the enemy, free upgrades for sky pirates, making it harder for enemies to use soul stones or 0 actions. Most of Mah's chores are just bad, the cost for the :+fate flips is pretty steep. Mah can position friendly models better than Zipp, but Zipp's rope isn't terrible. 

 

personally with his new upgrades I think Brewy is in a much better spot. His obey game got better and his poison game will actually really hurt enemies now instead of just annoying them. 

 

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On 30/8/2017 at 0:16 AM, the tick said:

 Cuddle:

1) Burt: lose Mercenary. I know it's not that much of a cuddle to us as a faction but if he's better out of faction.....?

 

On 30/8/2017 at 9:31 AM, daniello_s said:

Burt and McTavish should loose Mercenary so they wouldn't be abusive choice in other factions and Burt should go +1 cost definitely.

 

On 30/8/2017 at 3:16 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

 As for Burt losing Mercenary - I think that Wyrd would be reluctant to do so since it would invalidate the model from some collections.

I don't think so, also because

after all, the problem with burt and tavish is only when they are in deployed with T.T.

And for this reason should they remove from them mercenary characteristic? Really?:huh:

Nooooo:D

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14 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

I see you've never faced either with Fast and Debt to the Guild before :D

No ok, but joking apart, they really needs a Cuddle? Even loose marcenary??

That seems a little bit excessive to me.. and players  that already have these models (out of faction) what should they do??

For me Cuddles there should be for things in which there's no solution in game

 

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I actually really like the idea of "expensive": bump up his merc tax to 2. This means people need to choose more carefully and it's not an auto-take even out of faction...

As for Masters: I see now how Mah's upgrade "fix" really helps - still not sure if this means she can do things better than Zipp. Would be nice to fix a few more things - also her other upgrades are very expensive for what they provide (and things like diving charge really should be base card).

Brewie's Obey is now decent, but I don't know if that alone will win you games. Nor is the extra Poison damage. Both things need models to have Poison in the first place, and so rely heavily on the crew's ability to spread poison effectively - which at the moment is a bit of a struggle.

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On 9/1/2017 at 5:03 PM, wizuriel said:

I really wish the aim for the sore spots lasted until the end of her turn. That extra Mi range isn't nice when the model you try and lock down just walks free if they win initiative. 

I agree that the ending timing is annoying.

On 9/1/2017 at 5:03 PM, wizuriel said:

Doesn't Get off My land also deny Mah (or anyone using it) the ability to interact?

It does but at least she can Interact if truly needed (just don't do the Push).

On 9/1/2017 at 5:03 PM, wizuriel said:

Mah even with redefining her hand gets an 8" push at the start, 4" melee (for a 1 action) which if you stone gets her a charge to cover an additional 6". Granted this way she can get 4 attacks on a target. With aim for the sore spots she will have a +2 on most models and with luck during initiative can get a +3

Zipp with earl and hovering airship (using :mask masks from Earl) can shoot someone 12" away followed by an 8" walk with flight. With range 2" on his drop attack he can threaten a model up to 10" away and move them out of place while ignoring most triggers and armor. Targetting HT most of the time will have a +1 on them

So Mah can do more raw damage, but Zipp can more reliable do damage. Mah can lock down models easier though until the next round. Giving the edge slightly to Zipp

I, too, would give the edge to Zipp. Mostly because he goes through all sorts of weird defenses which the other Gremlins might have trouble with. Because in general, I think that Gremlins don't lack in the damage department.

That said, Earl is a bit of a liability. If the opponent knows what it is that he does, he tends to die. He also needs some positioning (especially if you're using him for something else besides just tending to Zipp) and activation order.

On 9/1/2017 at 5:03 PM, wizuriel said:

Zipp wins this pretty easily imo. Pseudo chatty annoys the enemy, free upgrades for sky pirates, making it harder for enemies to use soul stones or 0 actions. Most of Mah's chores are just bad, the cost for the :+fate flips is pretty steep. Mah can position friendly models better than Zipp, but Zipp's rope isn't terrible.

I dunno, I think that a 4" melee bubble is a horrible annoyance. It's enormous and prevents Charges, shooting with guns, and Interacts. And due to the 8" Push and Diving Charge you can position it in an extremely flexible way. And if Mah is Disguised, it just makes the whole thing extremely annoying.

On 9/1/2017 at 5:03 PM, wizuriel said:

personally with his new upgrades I think Brewy is in a much better spot. His obey game got better and his poison game will actually really hurt enemies now instead of just annoying them. 

Really? Maybe it's just that I have found that if I use models that give out Poison effectively, I'm losing way more with Brewy than when I just choose the IMO better models but I don't see the appeal.

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Hmm....  are we actually sure "Get Off My Land!" denies the ability to do interact actions on later turns?

Quote

"Get Off My Land!": After determining initiative on the first Turn, this model may discard a card to push up to 8".  if it does, this model may not cross the Centerline during this push or take Interact Actions on the first Turn.

That second sentence specifies that If a model uses "Get Off My Land" it has two limitations.

1) It may not cross the centerline

2) It may not take interact actions on the first turn.

I guess I just wonder if the interact limitation is stipulated to work more like Crooligans in that they cannot interact the first turn, but has no limitation on later turns.

 

I'll take this to the rules forum I guess.

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12 hours ago, Clement said:

Hmm....  are we actually sure "Get Off My Land!" denies the ability to do interact actions on later turns?

That second sentence specifies that If a model uses "Get Off My Land" it has two limitations.

1) It may not cross the centerline

2) It may not take interact actions on the first turn.

I guess I just wonder if the interact limitation is stipulated to work more like Crooligans in that they cannot interact the first turn, but has no limitation on later turns.

 

I'll take this to the rules forum I guess.

I seem to agree with you the "or take interact actions on the First Turn" is very specific so I think shes clear to use it turn 2+ which is a nice bonus to here flexibility.

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On 2/9/2017 at 8:59 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

Really? Maybe it's just that I have found that if I use models that give out Poison effectively, I'm losing way more with Brewy than when I just choose the IMO better models but I don't see the appeal.

the damage on the new Brewmaster's upgrade is straight bad, because you will give a lot of healing to the enemy's crew.

doing 2/3 points of damage is worthless when you heal them the same amount (and you will).

the Obey upgrade is a great upgrade, Brewy is good enough to put reliablee Poison on ONE target with his One For The Road o his Melee attack (and stoning/card to trigger swill)

so there always be a good Obey target to send away home, he's drunk.

 

maybe the "barkeep never sleep" upgrade can be used on Sammy...

 

Yeah, that's a good realization. Gives her a further edge over Zipp. I mean, Interacting with the Master isn't all that common but I could see it happening with stuff like Dig Your Graves or Mark for Death with Mah.

 

and you can 

Place Marker -> Push -> Place Marker -> Push -> Place Marker

in scheme likes Search The Ruins or Set Up can be interesting

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  • 1 month later...

I was thinking this morning on how to even out somer and the other masters without butchering him and bringing his fellow masters to a more competitive level. I think one great way would be taking his draw two cards when a gremlin dies within 6 ability off his card (Survival of the Fittest) and add it to The Guardian Stone (remove echo of souls ability). I think at 1ss it's fine but that's for some play testing and such to decide. It would be a cool fluffy way of giving Gremlins access to a card draw mechanic that most other factions have. Our only draw a card abilities that net us a positive number of cards are Somers survival of the fittest, and the 1 action on clobering stick for Ulix(once a turn) and the super situational draw one ability on McTavish (0) (since you almost always prefer a 1ap attack action on a 10ss model it almost doesn't even count). This currently makes it so the only master I can use who will give me decent card draw is Somer.(unlike Arcanists, Neverborn, outcasts, ten thunders, guild, resers who get card draw through a model any master can take or generic upgrade).

It would end up being a great buff for most of our weaker masters and would help resolve the issue that many of them have (almost no card draw vs somer who has a bunch). This is also great because it makes somer a bit weaker since now he has to pay for the upgrade and gives him tough choices since he has so many great upgrades already (encouragement, can o beans, family tree, dirty cheater, liquid bravery etc.) Also it's great because it leaves us with an incentive to play Gremlins in Gremlins for all our masters.

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On 9/6/2017 at 3:46 AM, Dominion said:

the damage on the new Brewmaster's upgrade is straight bad, because you will give a lot of healing to the enemy's crew.

doing 2/3 points of damage is worthless when you heal them the same amount (and you will).

The only way that the healing exceeds the damage now is if the enemy takes multiple "On the House" actions or flips the Red Joker on their healing flip. If your enemy is spending all their time taking the "On the House" action it doesn't really matter than they aren't dead, does it?

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3 hours ago, WWHSD said:

The only way that the healing exceeds the damage now is if the enemy takes multiple "On the House" actions or flips the Red Joker on their healing flip. If your enemy is spending all their time taking the "On the House" action it doesn't really matter than they aren't dead, does it?

No, but that's the normal play of brewy.

With that upgrade i want stuff Dead and that ability fails to do so.

Would be great if Barkeep never sleeps shut down the "on the house" preventing models to heal off the Brewmaster

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1 hour ago, Dominion said:

No, but that's the normal play of brewy.

With that upgrade i want stuff Dead and that ability fails to do so.

Would be great if Barkeep never sleeps shut down the "on the house" preventing models to heal off the Brewmaster

Yeah it's super counter productive....I'd just put a no healing condition on models hurt by the ability. 

Something like: 

Alcohol Poisoning: .........additional 2 damage from the poison condition and gain the "Day After" condition. 

Day After: Models with the day after condition can not heal. This condition ends at the end of the models next activation.

This would basically make on the house a ton more effective if you can keep poison up on them. I also think it's fair because if they really want to heal all it takes is a little condition removal and the turn they take the on the house action for the first time will still end up healing them as long as you haven't already inflicted poison on them.

 

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I dunno, I think it works as is.

The model takes three damage at the end of the turn. Next turn if thy activate early to heal before I can take advantage of the damage, then I only need to knock them down to three before the end of this turn.

If they activate late to try and heal late then I can attack them before hand and they'll already be down 3 health.

The poison itself is never going to kill anything, but I can effectively treat all models in the contest as having 3 off their max health by watching my timing when attacking them.

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14 minutes ago, Flinroz said:

I dunno, I think it works as is.

The model takes three damage at the end of the turn. Next turn if thy activate early to heal before I can take advantage of the damage, then I only need to knock them down to three before the end of this turn.

If they activate late to try and heal late then I can attack them before hand and they'll already be down 3 health.

The poison itself is never going to kill anything, but I can effectively treat all models in the contest as having 3 off their max health by watching my timing when attacking them.

Seems like some low damage models that target Wp would be decent at doing the couple of extra points of damage needed to push a model over the brink to being dead. Do Gremlins have anything like that? 

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4 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Seems like some low damage models that target Wp would be decent at doing the couple of extra points of damage needed to push a model over the brink to being dead. Do Gremlins have anything like that? 

Ooh, I will have to take a break from my wrastlers and let my lightning bugs join the party

Edit: nevermind For some reason I thought they were Df or WP. Fortunately those new voodoo gremlins from book 5 are.

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15 hours ago, lame0 said:

Our only draw a card abilities that net us a positive number of cards are Somers survival of the fittest, and the 1 action on clobering stick for Ulix(once a turn) and the super situational draw one ability on McTavish (0) (since you almost always prefer a 1ap attack action on a 10ss model it almost doesn't even count). This currently makes it so the only master I can use who will give me decent card draw is Somer.(unlike Arcanists, Neverborn, outcasts, ten thunders, guild, resers who get card draw through a model any master can take or generic upgrade).

Not that is invalidates your point or anything but Zoraida's Crystal Ball allows you to simply draw a card and Mah has a chore which allows one to draw a card when a Gremlin dies. I don't have my cards but doesn't one of the Sky Pirate Upgrades also give card draw?

But that's nitpicking - it's true that Gremlins have way less "pure" card draw than other factions. But OTOH Criers and some other things have helped Gremlin card draw a lot so I'm not sure that it is such an acute problem anymore. As for the idea itself, I suppose it could work but it wouldn't affect Somer much as he extremely seldom has all three Upgrades so the net effect for weakening him would be that he'd take an extra 1SS Upgrade all the time. It being available for all other Masters would even out the power curve but I dunno. It seems like a very powerful effect.

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two of the sky pirate upgrades have triggers to draw, there is always "do over" (discard to draw 2 cards) as a generic upgrade. 

Gremlins have more card cycling, and deck manipulation that anyone else (I'm going to include bayou 2 cards in that somehow). Someone has to have lowest in faction card draw, and I must admit I always thought it was Neverborn. (who have Jacob who does it ridiculous amounts, and not a lot else that I  can think of. Stiched, Collodi brings in Brutal effigy, Zoraida, (bewitch is solid card draw when used well) and triggers on killing enemy models on Lilith and nekema(?) sounds like less than Gremlins to me)

 

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On 31.8.2017 at 6:10 PM, edopersichetti said:

I'd love to see Moon Shinobi get played again: reckless would be great. Drunk and reckless would make even more sense from fluff...perhaps something can be done there :D

The whole Brewmaster crew needs a way to spread poison effectively, if they wanna go that route...why can't Brewmaster have just a passive aura effect where models get poisoned if they stand too close? If they start and/or end their activation there, etc. This would immediately bump up his utility... Don't think it'll break him, perhaps this could be softened by giving the models a Wp duel or something to pass, but still. It seems like the most natural solution to me.

 

I think Brewie is a little to binary with his drinking contest; people can get shut down hard, which might be an npe, and it can get useless if you go second. How about replacing it with something like this:

"(0) Drinking Contest: until the beginning of Brewmaster's next activation models that begins activation within or enter within aura 4", gain poison +1 and heal 1/2/3"

the add the following ability to the front of the card:

"Green haze [or whatever]: Enemy models with the poison cnodition starting their activation within 4" of Brewmaster gains slow and swill +1 condition"

Then increase the range of Swig o' shine to 4" and replace "...until end of turn" on Swill with "until end of next activation".

This would allow Brewie to spread poison passively (friendly and enemies), be less dependent on going first, will not be able to completely shut down a model, and will be able to actively try to contain models trying to get away. If changing swill to end of next activation is to strong it could possibly be balanced by adding +1 wp (max 3) as a kind of drunken overconfidence. Maybe add a wp resist to Drinking contest? If swill adds +1wp it could be pretty high...

Don't know if this is too strong, haven't really played him a lot, but I think this would be a little more consistent, but not all that much stronger. It also has slightly more counters (condition removal, obeys (in addition to lures)) compared to old drinking contest...

 

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