Broken Promises Fluff Discussion

[L3gion]

Thank you all for the responses. I guess I need to do some research before writing angry posts on the Internet... Also, fantasy and alternative history are quite different - we really don't know how the existence of magic affected the development of different nations. I lack the sufficient historical insight to continue this discussion, and whether or not I "feel" something is wrong is really irrelevant, soo... whatever.

And now for something completely different.

Do you think Malifaux will eventually completely move on from its western aesthetics? The timeline keeps advancing, the tone is gradually changing (thanks, Marlow), and a number of The Other Side models look more dieselpunky than steampunky already. Do you think that, some releases in, Malifaux will completely shift from dusters and cowboy hats to trenchcoats and fedoras? Will adopt some sort of fantasy WWI and Call of Cthulhu style? How do you feel about that idea?

[(Keenan)]

1 hour ago, Flint said:

Slavery =/ racism. In history  slaves  were of different colours and nations, including Europeans even in XIX century. Same goes for slavers.

Sure about that?  I am no historian, but slavery throughout history was more about conquering and expansion than doing it because you hated someone as a people.  The way I see it in terms of this discussion (being about slavery in the US), racism to the horrible extent that we have it and have had it was born of slavery, not the other way around.  That certainly doesn't excuse it either way.  As I said I am not a historian (in fact I find history in a broad sense really boring), so if I am off base on my conclusion by all means tell me.  I am always open to learn.

[Flint]

3 hours ago, (Keenan) said:

Sure about that?  I am no historian, but slavery throughout history was more about conquering and expansion than doing it because you hated someone as a people.  The way I see it in terms of this discussion (being about slavery in the US), racism to the horrible extent that we have it and have had it was born of slavery, not the other way around.  That certainly doesn't excuse it either way.  As I said I am not a historian (in fact I find history in a broad sense really boring), so if I am off base on my conclusion by all means tell me.  I am always open to learn.

Most probably I was not very clear with symbol. Should be "slavery is not equal to racism". You are right, it was not about hate but it was just one of spoils of war.

[Da Git]

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ers... Maybe...

So I finished the book last night (yey!) and finally got to read this tread (it was hard putting it of!), so I thought I'd give my 2yen!

The Guild story overall I wasn't really fond of... I liked the basic premise of seeing the characters day-to-day lives, but they kind of seemed like a pack of moronic teenagers.  Perdita was especially bad...  In every other story, she's always been brash, confident and in control.  eg. When she made the deal with Sonnia for a crap-ton of Witched bullets, meeting Kritchner in his landship (and her regaling her history) and in the book three story.  Here she & the other two seemed like awkward teens in college.  It really didn't gel with the image I had in my mind for her.  Lucas was the saving grace of that story, but I wasn't sure why he was scratching out the Charm Warder's deadly runes in Lucius' office.

Oh and don't get me started on Nellie, I just hate her as a character... (although she fits her role perfectly!)

Loved the Resser story!  Go Douggie!  A few decades of fame and fortune or an eternity of maddened genius? Loved it!  Also, really excited for the Domadores. 

I actually enjoyed the action of the Arcanists, Neverborn & Thunders stories, as they brought a few things that had been building to a head.

I'm really interested to see what happens to the Arcanists after this story and the one in the chronicles as I really feels like they're going to split, though I have no idea how as even the union might implode with Kaeris, Toni and Colette, let alone the others...

The Neverborn story once again was my favourite (although I'm a self admitted Titania fanboi!). Looking forward to seeing this one develop with all the characters, hopefully this will convince Lilith to join the queen (doubt it though!).

The Thunders I thought was a bit easy for Misaki really, everything kinda just went her way... I also thought the fight was too quick, although that has led me to question it a bit as it seemed like it wasn't conscious on Misaki's part...  Did Minako give her a boost to make it so easy?

The Gremlins story was amusing as always, but I'm kind of indifferent to them, same with Outcasts... Although I could possibly see a split here with Hamelin & Daw parting ways somehow.

Finally, I really would have loved vignettes for the characters that weren't mentioned... We heard some snippets like Kirai's gone back through to Earth (presumably to help the Court of Two), but I would have loved to know what the others were up to, especially Yan's (& Wong's) quest for Linguxi, but even Shenlong, Colette, Reva, Sandeep, Hamelin, Pandy, etc would have been amazing!

Thanks for reading ( I hope it made sense, I'm not the best writer)!

[the tick]

So many curve balls in the fluff, love the prospect of masters potentially toeing the line between bouncing factions/allegiances. Overall pretty happy with the reading I've done so far! Really wish that all the masters had some sort of story advancement done to them. The Gremlins seemed the weakest in this respect. Sure the faction AS A WHOLE had a major shakeup **SPOILERS**

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Zoraida getting told she's not wanted anymore and then of course Lenny getting elected as the Supreme Allied Swamp Commander (i.d. Gremlin General). But the fact that none of the Gremlin masters had their individual story changed was a little disappointing and Ulix not even getting mentioned was especially annoying (he's my favorite). But still pretty happy with the product. Looking forward to more fluff.

[EnternalVoid]

18 hours ago, the tick said:

Zoraida getting told she's not wanted anymore

I don't think she was told she was not wanted anymore as much as she was told, "you are not a Gremlin so why do you get a say in who is of us gremlins?"  Somer even kind of implied she was still sort of part of their community when he said she will be mad for a while but get over it.  They basically denied her the chance to try and assume leadership or have any say over said leadership.  And while many laughed and cheered it was only because they thought they were safe collectively *she can only get so many of us* but I imagine if she starts dealing with people individually they will still be afraid of her and do what she says to a degree.

[edopersichetti]

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I've now finished reading all of the stories. Thankfully, after the Guild story the rest of them proved to be a bit better, at least seeing a bit of action and advancing the storyline. The only other one I didn't particularly like was the Gremlins (which annoys me even more since that's my main and favorite faction), but it is not nearly as bad as the Guild story. As for that one, like some other people here, I can guess what the author was trying to achieve, but it was not very well-executed. Seeing badass women like Lady J and Perdita bitching like 14-years old girls about hair and "you're not my BFF anymore" was definitely a downer. Also, what's with all the references to modern-day stuff like coffee machines and the like...and bagel and cream cheese?? Is Malifaux somewhere in Minnesota and I didn't know it? Lol. It just felt very out of place. Next thing, we'll see Hoffmann talking on an iPhone and Nellie eating a McFlurry...
On a similar page is the idea of the "democrazy". The play on words is a clever little trick, and certainly the parallelism with a dumb simpleton being elected over a female candidate is a hilarious reference to recent happenings, but the whole story is a bit forced. Not sure where Zipp (or rather, Earl) got the idea of democracy from, since Malifaux is ruled by a tyrant (the Governor General) and even Earth at the (supposed) time is all but ruled by kings and emperors.

I think the Ressers' story was the most intriguing and best-written. One thing I enjoyed throughout the book is the amount of "drastic measures" in the story events: arms being chopped off, Lilith dumped into Nythera, Lady J nearly buried alive in the fight...it's exciting, like, it's for real, characters are getting injured, crippled, defeated for real. You don't come back from that. Hopefully this leads to interesting developments. Even more, on the development sides, is the possible prospect for several re-shufflings inside factions: McMourning is now definitely 100% Ressers, Lady J and Ramos could be..."cast out" (hehe), even Von Schill nearly switched to Guild and Zoraida is being rejected by the Gremlins (full Neverborn now?)

As for the things I didn't like, first there's the general feeling that some of the stories are bit "forced" and inconsistent with the previous fluff, as mentioned by @L3gion above. Some things are plausible, like Ramos being defeated by Sonnia (after all, he was caught unaware and with no constructs nearby, plus his men deserted him). Less plausible is Toni's betrayal. Worst of all is Zoraida being tricked by Titania AND Dreamer, she's literally the one that weaves fate...now suddenly completely senile? It's unexplicable to me and very forced, to say the least. Outcast and Ten Thunders are also meh...especially, after all the big climax, what was the matter with the duel with the Oyabun??

Also, I didn't like several characters being left out. For instance with Ressers it was nice to see the "original trio" of Nicodem, Seamus and McMourning together again and it's a bit easier to explain the absence of a newcomer like Reva, but where were the rest of the masters? If they weren't included in the story, which is perfectly reasonable, it would have been nice to have some vignettes, one of the best features of Book 4 IMHO.

Finally, some other aspects which may seem small are for me still disappointing, the worst possibly being the recycled picture of Lady J with the "photoshopped" haircut...I'm all for new art, if it's new art! I love the new art for Von Schill and The Dreamer for example, and wish all the masters got the same treatment. Reusing previous art (or even 1st ed images!) is a bit lazy but hey, maybe that's all the time and/or the budget allowed for. But that Lady J art was terrible, better to leave the original, at that point...
Also, what happened to the old font that had been used in all the books so far?

Overall, and this is obviously my very personal opinion, the book is interesting but definitely a notch down from previous books, in stories, new models, editorial quality etc. It definitely feels further away from the other books in a variety of aspects, some even very small but still very noticeable (like the font - why?). Pardon if some opinions seem harsh but perhaps some honest feedback can help improve and move forward to produce some more great Malifaux products!

p.s. a mention to @Da Git: I share most of your opinions in fact

[Cedar]

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I finished few stories and I have mixed feelings about this book. In case of content (new models and upgrades) I think this is best book since Crossroads, but fluff (and recycled artwork) is bit disappointing. Guild story was completely pointless, although I like the idea of showing our heroes in normal situations. Ressers, Arcanists and Outcasts stories were fun and advanced plot in new directions and I can't wait to know what happens next. 

[Da Git]

Thanks for the mention @edopersichetti, I agree with you agreeing with me, more people should do it!  No modesty here!

 

 

 

And now back to our regular program...

SPOILERS AHOY! Ahoy there Spoilers!

I kind of liked Zoraida getting curb stomped a bit.  As powerful as she is, she has never really had anyone directly competing with her.  She's sat in her hut reading the strands of fate and manipulating/weaving them to her advantage for the past century.  She knew something was up, but in her arrogance/ignorance didn't know what.  After all, Fate had never led her astray before and while doubtful, she had no reason to not believe the portents she was reading.  Also, look at the calibre of her deceivers, in one corner we have Nytemare, an ancient Tyrant who escaped Titania's purge the best and Titania, an ancient queen (who for all we know was the original weaver of Fate, and Zoraida's just picking up on her legacy). Whilst Zoraida's had a century to control Fate, she may very well be a stripling compared to Titania and there's no know what Nytemare can do.  We already know he can weave reality and illusion to his whims.  It'll be interesting to see what happens when Pandy comes back into the picture as she's really the only one who stands a chance against Nytemare & even she got curb stomped in M1E book 2.

I'm also really seeing how Lilith emerges from Nythera.  She may very well become Undead which would be very interesting.  We know Titania traded her eyes before Nythera, but was she and her followers Undead before or after?  Lilith was certainly going to die before being put in there, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was (but still retaining her eyes).  Zoraida said Nythera was designed to keep Titania alive, but she never said in what state...

Another potential story arc for the for the Arcanists in the  next book might be a reunion of sorts, It would be cool for Toni (maybe teaming up with Kaeris) to launch a rescue mission after Ramos now that the Guild has lived up to their end of the bargain...

 

[Mason]

12 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Also, what's with all the references to modern-day stuff like coffee machines and the like...and bagel and cream cheese?? Is Malifaux somewhere in Minnesota and I didn't know it? Lol. It just felt very out of place. Next thing, we'll see Hoffmann talking on an iPhone and Nellie eating a McFlurry...

Bagels were first created in the 1600s and were a thriving product in New York and London around the turn of the century.

The first vacuum-brewer coffee machine was invented in 1840.

 

The current Malifaux year is 1907, so neither would be uncommon in Malifaux.

[edopersichetti]

51 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Thanks for the mention @edopersichetti, I agree with you agreeing with me, more people should do it!  No modesty here!

51 minutes ago, Da Git said:

And now back to our regular program...

SPOILERS AHOY! Ahoy there Spoilers!

I kind of liked Zoraida getting curb stomped a bit.  As powerful as she is, she has never really had anyone directly competing with her.  She's sat in her hut reading the strands of fate and manipulating/weaving them to her advantage for the past century.  She knew something was up, but in her arrogance/ignorance didn't know what.  After all, Fate had never led her astray before and while doubtful, she had no reason to not believe the portents she was reading.  Also, look at the calibre of her deceivers, in one corner we have Nytemare, an ancient Tyrant who escaped Titania's purge the best and Titania, an ancient queen (who for all we know was the original weaver of Fate, and Zoraida's just picking up on her legacy). Whilst Zoraida's had a century to control Fate, she may very well be a stripling compared to Titania and there's no know what Nytemare can do.  We already know he can weave reality and illusion to his whims.  It'll be interesting to see what happens when Pandy comes back into the picture as she's really the only one who stands a chance against Nytemare & even she got curb stomped in M1E book 2.

I'm also really seeing how Lilith emerges from Nythera.  She may very well become Undead which would be very interesting.  We know Titania traded her eyes before Nythera, but was she and her followers Undead before or after?  Lilith was certainly going to die before being put in there, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was (but still retaining her eyes).  Zoraida said Nythera was designed to keep Titania alive, but she never said in what state...

Another potential story arc for the for the Arcanists in the  next book might be a reunion of sorts, It would be cool for Toni (maybe teaming up with Kaeris) to launch a rescue mission after Ramos now that the Guild has lived up to their end of the bargain...

 

Yes, I do see a lot of potential story arcs in the fluff, and that's one of the things I mentioned I liked the most. If things follow this direction, really, a major reshuffling of masters and factions, including core modifications of stats and abilities, could be on the way...exciting!

[edopersichetti]

26 minutes ago, Mason said:

Bagels were first created in the 1600s and were a thriving product in New York and London around the turn of the century.

The first vacuum-brewer coffee machine was invented in 1840.

 

The current Malifaux year is 1907, so neither would be uncommon in Malifaux.

Yes, but Bagel and Cream Cheese is a distinctly american dish, typically served for breakfast/morning tea.

"Despite being blind, Justice had no problem making her way to the counter, selecting a bagel, cutting it in half, and smearing it with cream cheese" 

...almost sounds like a commercial for Einstein Bros Bagels! 

An example that I'm more familiar with: pizza was invented in Italy in the mid-1800s. Before that, people had been eating some similar types of flatbreads and focaccias. Now, it would be very plausible to see a Guild Guard eating a simple flatbread or a savoury flat cake etc., much less a Pepperoni Pizza or a Meat Lovers.

It's not the item per se, or the historical accuracy, it's the details. After all, Malifaux is a fictional world so for all I know they could be eating roasted Nephilim livers with purple mayo and it would be plausible. But this story, from what I perceived, related a bit too much to modern-day amenities and situations. While I was reading it, I had the impression that Perdita and Lady J were meeting at Starbucks rather than the Guild Enclave...

Then, it may just be me, but I pay attention to details (perhaps sometimes too much!) and the whole thing didn't ring plausible. Much much better the other stories which went back to a more appropriate setting - Ressers above all, my favorite story (despite being my least favorite faction!)

[Malkirk]

Historical accuracy in these situations is difficult. I mean, we're talking about a world radically different from our own, but little details like this still pull us out of the story even if there's some historicity there. My first book was a weird, created world steampunk novel, and I spent *way* too much time researching the advent of showers, only to realize that if it felt weird to me, even if it was accurate, it was going to feel weird to the reader.

[Mason]

6 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Yes, but Bagel and Cream Cheese is a distinctly american dish, typically served for breakfast/morning tea.!)

It's... really not.

Bagels were created by the Jewish people in Poland, and it became a staple of Polish diets long before it came to America. When it did show up in America, it was brought there by Polish immigrants... the same sort of immigrants who would travel to Malifaux, in fact.

Around 1900, bagels became a very popular breakfast/lunch meal in New York, but they had already been popular in London for half a century... during the time period when the Guild had its headquarters in London. It's safe to assume that the Guild is relatively pro-bagel.

[Mike Wallace]

NEW YORK CITY?!

Get a rope.

[Gnomezilla]

18 minutes ago, Mike Wallace said:

NEW YORK CITY?!

Get a rope.

...Are you sure you're Canadian? 

[edopersichetti]

9 hours ago, Malkirk said:

Historical accuracy in these situations is difficult. I mean, we're talking about a world radically different from our own, but little details like this still pull us out of the story even if there's some historicity there. My first book was a weird, created world steampunk novel, and I spent *way* too much time researching the advent of showers, only to realize that if it felt weird to me, even if it was accurate, it was going to feel weird to the reader.

Thanks. It is exactly this. As I said, it is a fictional world (with some similarities to a certain place/period in time) so all sorts of weird stuff could be going on and still be plausible, but little details like this are enough to pull the reader out. It felt just weird - you can't help it. If would have felt just as weird if, say, Ramos was using gasoline-powered constructs to drill in the ice. After all, why could oil not exist on Malifaux? It would be plausible. Nevertheless, it'd feel odd and out of place to me.

So I'm not saying certain things are historically inaccurate or impossible, just that they felt out of place. My gut feeling when reading the story was that it was relating too much to modern-day situations. Thanks again for sharing your insight - since you are a writer, it is twice as valuable.

[edopersichetti]

9 hours ago, Mason said:

It's... really not.

Bagels were created by the Jewish people in Poland, and it became a staple of Polish diets long before it came to America. When it did show up in America, it was brought there by Polish immigrants... the same sort of immigrants who would travel to Malifaux, in fact.

Around 1900, bagels became a very popular breakfast/lunch meal in New York, but they had already been popular in London for half a century... during the time period when the Guild had its headquarters in London. It's safe to assume that the Guild is relatively pro-bagel.

I'm not interested in the history of the bagel, but in what it communicates to me. When I read "bagel and cream cheese" it rings "breakfast at a hotel in america" to me. That's why I said it's typically american: I've traveled all the world and USA is the only place where I can be sure to find bagel and cream cheese at the breakfast table in almost any hotel. I've got nothing against the bagel and cream cheese per se, it's just what it transmits. If the story implied Lady J going to the counter and picking up a croissant and a cappuccino, it would have rang equally out of place and weird, as it recalls breakfast at the local neighborhood cafe in Rome.

Plus, as @Malkirk highlighted, little details often make an incredible difference. "Select" a bagel implies that there were a variety available - was Lady J choosing the chocolate chip bagel, or the cinnamon raisin or...? Even IF bagels were plausible, there would probably be just simple plain bagels, I imagine. "Smear it" sounds like bagel company ad. And cream cheese, did they keep it in a fridge, too?

I could go on forever trying to describe a 100 reasons why, but really, it's a personal feeling, and it felt wrong - it disconnected me from the story - something which didn't happen with the other stories which were much more intriguing and accurate. Perhaps for you it is perfectly normal to have Lady J go up and do that, for me it would have been more coherent to have her go up and pick up a slice of cake or a piece of fruit. Peace - it's not the first bad story I've read and won't be the last, and if it makes everyone else here happy, all the better

[-Loki-]

The history lesson is important. They're not catering to your personal perception of the world as has been shaped by your personal experiences over your life. They're making an alt history setting that is set, currently, in the early 1900's. How the bagel evolved since then in culinary attitudes around the world is completely irrelevant. In the current timeline, in London - where the Guild headquarters was slightly prior to that, it would have been popular, so it wouldn't be uncommon at all for someone from there in that time to be eating it.

You can't use modern sensibilities for a period piece, even an alternate history period piece.

[(Keenan)]

Also how young do you think democracy is?  Democracy was around in the 6th century BCE.  Anybody with any kind of education should have heard about it at minimum in the early 1900's, not to mention that, given that the Breach is in Santa Fe NM in the super early 20th century we had a democracy in the US.  

As for bagels, if the all powerful guild wanted bagels, they'd import them from earthside if they wanted to.  Gotta agree with @Mason and @-Loki- the history is there.

[Justin]

Oh, sure, maybe @Mason can explain the bagel, but can he explain the cream cheese?

WE NEED ANSWERS

[Mason]

Just now, Lalochezia said:

Oh, sure, maybe @Mason can explain the bagel, but can he explain the cream cheese?

WE NEED ANSWERS

Commercial refrigerators were invented in 1854, 53 years before the setting of the story.

The mass production of cream cheese began in 1873, 37 years before the setting of the story.

 

BOOM!  VULTURED! 

[edopersichetti]

On 9/19/2017 at 9:19 PM, -Loki- said:

The history lesson is important. They're not catering to your personal perception of the world as has been shaped by your personal experiences over your life. They're making an alt history setting that is set, currently, in the early 1900's. How the bagel evolved since then in culinary attitudes around the world is completely irrelevant. In the current timeline, in London - where the Guild headquarters was slightly prior to that, it would have been popular, so it wouldn't be uncommon at all for someone from there in that time to be eating it.

You can't use modern sensibilities for a period piece, even an alternate history period piece.

I disagree - it is the piece itself that recalls modern sensibilities. Had the piece written something more generic and less streamlined, it would have rang less out of place to me. But oh well, different strokes and all that. I'm glad you loved the story - I, and several other people, just didn't.

[edopersichetti]

13 minutes ago, Mason said:

Commercial refrigerators were invented in 1854, 53 years before the setting of the story.

The mass production of cream cheese began in 1873, 37 years before the setting of the story.

 

BOOM!  VULTURED! 

Lol the fact that all that was technically possible doesn't mean it fits in the story. I found it out of place - when I think Malifaux I think steampunk cowboy stuff, not refrigerators. But oh well, as I said above, different strokes. I hated this story and loved the Ressers, the Neverborn and the Arcanist ones. Let's stop beating a dead horse

[edopersichetti]

On 9/19/2017 at 10:41 PM, (Keenan) said:

Also how young do you think democracy is?  Democracy was around in the 6th century BCE.  Anybody with any kind of education should have heard about it at minimum in the early 1900's, not to mention that, given that the Breach is in Santa Fe NM in the super early 20th century we had a democracy in the US.  

As for bagels, if the all powerful guild wanted bagels, they'd import them from earthside if they wanted to.  Gotta agree with @Mason and @-Loki- the history is there.

Thanks, I don't need a history lesson - I'm from Europe and I know these things very, very well - we actually do study history there. The fact that the Greeks proposed a theory of a democracy centuries ago doesn't mean democracy has existed in the world since then - in fact, for most of the history of humanity the majority of the world countries were not (and many still aren't) democratically ruled - whatever this actually means, it's another matter. I'm not sure how you can call a democracy that of the US in early 1900, with all the social and racial disparities and with women not even allowed to vote...for instance, I DID find the Ophelia situation ("we'll be never ruled by a woman") a lot more believable.

But I'm not here to discuss politics or history - it is not the place. I'm talking about Zipp and Earl who had supposedly heard of democracy.  Had Zipp been to Earth before? Had Earl? Do they even know what it means, did they read books on Plato and Socrates? It just feels a bit forced, is all, given that the world they live in (Malifaux) is ruled by a Tyrannical organization (the Guild), ruled by a dictator-like figure (the Governor General).

I read it, and it felt weird, that's all. I'm glad other people didn't have an issue with this.