Wave 5 Master Upgrades: Neverborn

[RumbleMunkey]

19 hours ago, Palooka said:

Or indeed - no Totem at all. But I like the idea of starting with a Primordial Magic, Dig Graves with it turn 2, then summon a Poltergeist off your horde of Misery damage.

Can't dig graves with primordial magic, unfortunately. It can only count as a scheme marker at the end of a turn.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, RumbleMunkey said:

Can't dig graves with primordial magic, unfortunately. It can only count as a scheme marker at the end of a turn.

That's not true.

[Nikodemus]

Primordial is a scheme marker "when calculating VP".

Dig from GG2017 document:

"Once per turn, after this Crew kills or sacrifices an enemy non-Peon model that is within 4" of one or more Scheme Markers friendly to this Crew, score 1 VP, then your opponent may remove one Scheme Marker friendly to your Crew within 4" of the killed (or sacrificed) model."

Reads to me like you count Dig VP on the spot and therefore Primordial can count as a scheme marker for that purpose.

[Adran]

44 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

Primordial is a scheme marker "when calculating VP".

Dig from GG2017 document:

"Once per turn, after this Crew kills or sacrifices an enemy non-Peon model that is within 4" of one or more Scheme Markers friendly to this Crew, score 1 VP, then your opponent may remove one Scheme Marker friendly to your Crew within 4" of the killed (or sacrificed) model."

Reads to me like you count Dig VP on the spot and therefore Primordial can count as a scheme marker for that purpose.

But the magic wasn't a Scheme marker when you killed the model because at that time you weren't calculating VPs.

It doesn't magically become a scheme marker every time someone dies when you may have selected dig their graves. If it did colette would love facing it...

[-Loki-]

Wouldn't you be calculating VP when you check to see if it is within 4" of a scheme marker?

[Mr Janje]

Calculating VP is a step at the end of the turn isn't it?

[Nikodemus]

Certain schemes (like Dig) score VP then and there. Others score at the end of the turn (like Hunting Party, to compare to a similar scheme).

[santaclaws01]

28 minutes ago, Adran said:

But the magic wasn't a Scheme marker when you killed the model because at that time you weren't calculating VPs.

It doesn't magically become a scheme marker every time someone dies when you may have selected dig their graves. If it did colette would love facing it...

You calculate VP by checking to see if a scheme marker is within 4". Also, the player controlling the PM decides if it's a scheme marker or not, so their opponent can never get the benefit of it being a scheme marker.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Mr Janje said:

Calculating VP is a step at the end of the turn isn't it?

Calculating VP is whenever a scheme would tell you to score VP. For schemes like Dig Their Graves, you score during the turn.

[Adran]

Suppose Colette is standing next to a primordial magic, and you as the neverborn have dig their graves, announced but not yet scored this turn. 

You hit Colette and she announces "now you see me". There is no other scheme marker near colette. 

At what point does it become a scheme marker?  And why can't colette use it to not die? 

You score the VP for Dig their graves after you kill a model. The model you kill has to be near a scheme marker when you kill it. The time when you calculate VP is after the point at which you kill it so its not killed at the time the Primordial magic can be used as a scheme marker

 

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Suppose Colette is standing next to a primordial magic, and you as the neverborn have dig their graves, announced but not yet scored this turn. 

You hit Colette and she announces "now you see me". There is no other scheme marker near colette. 

At what point does it become a scheme marker?  And why can't colette use it to not die? 

You score the VP for Dig their graves after you kill a model. The model you kill has to be near a scheme marker when you kill it. The time when you calculate VP is after the point at which you kill it so its not killed at the time the Primordial magic can be used as a scheme marker

 

Good points. I'm inclined to agree with you now.

[(Keenan)]

Seems like a stack problem (which doesn't exist in Malifaux that I've ever been aware of).  What's the order? Colette dies, there is not another scheme marker for her to use, NB player says cool Colette is dead, I turn this into scheme marker, score VP for dig.  Essentially the PM would only become a scheme marker if Colette actually dies and once the Arcanist player concedes there is no option to keep her alive.  Am I missing something?

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, (Keenan) said:

Seems like a stack problem (which doesn't exist in Malifaux that I've ever been aware of).  What's the order? Colette dies, there is not another scheme marker for her to use, NB player says cool Colette is dead, I turn this into scheme marker, score VP for dig.  Essentially the PM would only become a scheme marker if Colette actually dies and once the Arcanist player concedes there is no option to keep her alive.  Am I missing something?

It has to be a marker at the point of death because a marker placed by an after damaging trigger before the model is removed is not counted for the scheme. Although Colette isn't scoring or friendly so I don't think she can use it as a marker.

[ringsnake]

I must be alone in being very happy about the Lucius upgrades. True they're not all that 'sexy' like some of the others, but one of the walls I always hit with him is lack of good cards, running out of stones, and how he's not quite good enough at protecting himself or manipulating scheme markers. I will certainly give him a try with both of those upgrades and Hidden Assets, since getting off that sniper shot should be significantly easier.

Of all the masters I've played Pandora is the one that clicked with me the most, and her ability to activate first, scoot across the board by casting Incite twice instead of just once, while ALSO dropping conditions, and then dumping that condition to summon a Sorrow. Then your opponent can feel free to retaliate against Pandora, and leave the Sorrow(s) alone, or get nuked on following turns by multiple miseries. 

An I am SO happy about being able to 'gift' enemy models with a 2/3/4 irreducable attack. Combined with summoning sorrows it looks like a legit way to make her a damage dealer instead of frustrating your opponent by paralyzing his crew. And after all that you can add Field Reporters too? Too cool.

[Philosfr]

Lucius is my least played NB master, so I have a hard time commenting on his. Deep Pockets does seem pretty cool, but I think what feels lacking from his upgrades is the non-game changing nature of it. Pandora being able to summon Sorrows and Poltergeist is game changing, it offers her a whole new way to play. Lilith's hazardous terrain stuff is a dream come true for the way I play her. Dreamer turns into a beat stick. So while I think Lucius is solid, the new upgrades lack a little sparkle that get people excited.

[ringsnake]

2 hours ago, Philosfr said:

Lucius is my least played NB master, so I have a hard time commenting on his. Deep Pockets does seem pretty cool, but I think what feels lacking from his upgrades is the non-game changing nature of it. Pandora being able to summon Sorrows and Poltergeist is game changing, it offers her a whole new way to play. Lilith's hazardous terrain stuff is a dream come true for the way I play her. Dreamer turns into a beat stick. So while I think Lucius is solid, the new upgrades lack a little sparkle that get people excited.

The game changer for Lucius was the 2017 rewrite of his and his totem's rules. I don't play too often, but if Titania is the Queen of the fey, then he's the king of the fey. He can do crazy stuff with Queeg (Guardsman) Thorn, Tooth, and Changelings. And that's just easy and powerful combos that barely use up 25 SS of any crew. I won't say he's the easiest and most powerful master in NB, but he's nowhere near the bottom of the pile any more.

I have played more of Lynch than anything, and his new Limited is fun, possibly even terrifying. He just dumps a mask, and drops brilliance all around him. We're going to see a lot of people load up Lynch with Cheating Bastard, Woke Up with a Hand, and Wanna See a Trick. I always had the 'problem' of killing models as they're getting brilliance, which stopped me from making any real use of Huggy's Heed my Voice.

[whodares]

11 hours ago, ringsnake said:

I have played more of Lynch than anything, and his new Limited is fun, possibly even terrifying. He just dumps a mask, and drops brilliance all around him. We're going to see a lot of people load up Lynch with Cheating Bastard, Woke Up with a Hand, and Wanna See a Trick. I always had the 'problem' of killing models as they're getting brilliance, which stopped me from making any real use of Huggy's Heed my Voice.

I still find it hard to give up Rising Sun due to the amount of resources Huggy can tie up like that. I had no real problem blowing up 2 models per turn before and getting the second and third coming of Huggy dissuaded my opponent from really going after it.

Don't get me wrong, I like the new upgrade for Lynch, but I just wish it wasn't Limited. I don't see any competitive build beind able to go toe-to-toe with Rising Sun due to getting Huggy back at the end of the Turn via Lynch boomstick. Even if it wasn't Limited, I would still be hard-pressed to swap it our for Wanna See a Trick or Woke Up With A Hand. The current combo for Lynch is just too good and soon he'll get Gwynneth Maddox as well for more card tricks and Brilliance spread. Don't forget Brilliance only works well if you have enough models to actually use it.

Though perhaps this may bring back more thematic lists for him that become stronger. Time will tell, but so far there is no real reason for me to take that upgrade over anything he has right now.

[ringsnake]

9 hours ago, whodares said:

I still find it hard to give up Rising Sun due to the amount of resources Huggy can tie up like that. I had no real problem blowing up 2 models per turn before and getting the second and third coming of Huggy dissuaded my opponent from really going after it.

Don't get me wrong, I like the new upgrade for Lynch, but I just wish it wasn't Limited. I don't see any competitive build beind able to go toe-to-toe with Rising Sun due to getting Huggy back at the end of the Turn via Lynch boomstick. Even if it wasn't Limited, I would still be hard-pressed to swap it our for Wanna See a Trick or Woke Up With A Hand. The current combo for Lynch is just too good and soon he'll get Gwynneth Maddox as well for more card tricks and Brilliance spread. Don't forget Brilliance only works well if you have enough models to actually use it.

Though perhaps this may bring back more thematic lists for him that become stronger. Time will tell, but so far there is no real reason for me to take that upgrade over anything he has right now.

I think variation in play style was the goal, so whatever they were going to do, for most of the masters these were going to be play style altering limiteds.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, ringsnake said:

I think variation in play style was the goal, so whatever they were going to do, for most of the masters these were going to be play style altering limiteds.

Also giving Lynch access to a practically immortal Huggy and the ability for his crew to always cheat fate second is a really good way to make him overpowered.

[Sharp_GT]

I think we're underselling lynch's new upgrade. The fact that he could give brilliance to enemy models and then nuke one of those models for 2/4/6/8 [if you're farming aces] while spending NO AP is pretty great. It plays into a aggressive take on lynch that I actually really wanted to be good before, but just wasn't. Color me excited for that.

 

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

I think we're underselling lynch's new upgrade. The fact that he could give brilliance to enemy models and then nuke one of those models for 2/4/6/8 [if you're farming aces] while spending NO AP is pretty great. It plays into a aggressive take on lynch that I actually really wanted to be good before, but just wasn't. Color me excited for that.

 

I don't think anyone is really underselling it, but the strong thing about it is the cheating second. Lynch has never had a problem killing a model if he starts within 10" of him if he has wanna see a trick and the aces for it.

[le_sphinx]

Has enyone tried the second new Lynch upgrade? What do you guys think about it?

I did it last Saturday against game versus Nikodem. The ability to summon depleted is really nice, but you have to discard two cards for that. If you don't have aces on your hand or it's Lynch's activation right now, it could be a high price for that. Anyway it's ok. IMO the main issue here is that almost all other Lynch's upgrades are quite usefull.