Grow lists before master updates

[Ludvig]

I'm starting to finish painting a bunch of my nephilim and would like to try them out. 

I have a couple of lists that I'm thinking of running in an advantageous pool like headhunter with dig their graves or mark for death. List one is a lot more aggressive, the second one has more activations but less credible threats. When the strat and schemes want you to kill anyway growing shouldn't feel like a third scheme but aomething that just happens.

List two kind of lacks teeth but can single out enemy models and trigger pounces en masse. If they get to your tots you can grow their buddies with the corpse.

I'm also having trouble deciding between the pukesnake and cherub. Cards are nice but with my intended plays I think the (0) interacts might be crucial.

Suggestions?

List 1

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Lilith + 6 Pool (or 5, see below)
 - Beckon Malifaux (1)
 - Wicked Mistress (1)
 - On Wings Of Darkness (1)
Primordial Magic (2) or Cherub (3)
Barbaros (10)
 - A Thousand Faces (1)
Mature Nephilim (11)
 - A Thousand Faces (1)
Young Nephilim (6)
Young Nephilim (6)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)

List 2

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Lilith + 6 Pool
 - Rapid Growth (1)
 - On Wings Of Darkness (1)
 - Beckon Malifaux (1)
Primordial Magic (2) or Cherub (3)
Lilitu (7)
 - A Thousand Faces (1)
Black Blood Shaman (7)
Young Nephilim (6)
Young Nephilim (6)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)

List 3 (I had to try with Lucius). I'm kind of liking the pounce trap within the  aura. The scribe raising the already decent defence on most nephilim and protecting them through red tape could prove more worth it than the cards from the snake.

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Lucius + 4 Pool
Primordial Magic (2)
Mr. Graves (8)
 - A Thousand Faces (1)
Lilitu (7)
 - A Thousand Faces (1)
Black Blood Shaman (7)
Young Nephilim (6)
Young Nephilim (6)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)

[Phinn]

"...before master updates."

[Ludvig]

19 minutes ago, Phinn said:

"...before master updates."

Well in a month everything will likely be completely different and none of the lists built before the upgrades will seem logical. No point in releasing upgrades that are worse than the old ones. I'm fully expecting some broken shit for all the masters to bring them in line with the top picks

[santaclaws01]

Here's my goto grow list.

Lilith +6 pool
 - Rapid Growth (1)
 - Beckon Malifaux (1)
 - Aether/Wings/Wicked Mistress
Primordial Magic (2)
Nekima (13)
 - The True Mother (2)
 - A Thousand Faces (1)
Black Blood Shaman (7)
Young Nephilim (6)
Young Nephilim (6)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)

I feel like Nekima with True Mother and the BBS are pretty crucial for getting the grow list to do the best. Nekima as a source for more Terror Tots(albeit it won't be terribly common), but being able to have her kill the key pieces without sacrificing a potential mature is pretty big. And the the BBS as another source of growing Tots without requiring the Tot to make the kill, and just general support for the crew.

[Ludvig]

Thanks!

I'd have to proxy Nekima but that shouldn't be a problem.

[Ludvig]

Just realized Lucius can get silly with a tot and some other nephilim. If you bleed the tot for soulstones while Lucius is a little bit up the field you could give fast and a walk to a couple of young nephilim or just a walk to a mature. If you have a shaman in your list you can upgrade a tot into a young neph with the corpse marker.

Tot wastes an activation moving up. Another tot goes. Lucius swaps placed with a tot and uses a soulstone to bleed it. Uses another soulstone on either a sniper attack or commanding something with a soulstone for a suit and thus kills the tot. Lucius has spent two ap but has given out 1+1 ap from commanding a minion as well as giving 2-3 walks and two fast young nephilim. The shaman upgrades the activated tot into a young. Maybe not a world-endingly powerful combo but it's a decent amount of ap gained.

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Just realized Lucius can get silly with a tot and some other nephilim. If you bleed the tot for soulstones while Lucius is a little bit up the field you could give fast and a walk to a couple of young nephilim or just a walk to a mature. If you have a shaman in your list you can upgrade a tot into a young neph with the corpse marker.

Tot wastes an activation moving up. Another tot goes. Lucius swaps placed with a tot and uses a soulstone to bleed it. Uses another soulstone on either a sniper attack or commanding something with a soulstone for a suit and thus kills the tot. Lucius has spent two ap but has given out 1+1 ap from commanding a minion as well as giving 2-3 walks and two fast young nephilim. The shaman upgrades the activated tot into a young. Maybe not a world-endingly powerful combo but it's a decent amount of ap gained.

Seems pretty decent, although would probably be better to turn 2 kill it so your fast young are in a better position and you'll be able to command them forward some still with Lucius. Then you're opponent will have been less likely to be prepared for 2 fast young Nephilim. Also keeps that activation for turn 2 to give better targets for your now fast young.

[keget]

Here is a grow list that has done well.  Lots of activations, doppleganger let's you go first almost all the times you want.  Lilith makes sure Nekima has good stuff to kill...and Cherub has done very well lat in a turn to slow someone, but feel free to switch to puke 🐍.

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Lilith + 5 Pool
 - Beckon Malifaux (1)
 - On Wings Of Darkness (1)
 - Wicked Mistress (1)
Cherub (3)
Nekima (13)
 - The True Mother (2)
 - Rapid Growth (1)
Doppleganger (7)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)

 (exported from CrewFaux)

[Ludvig]

Cheers @keget I'll keep that in my back pocket and try it with proxies sometime.

[feagaur]

My general grow list is pretty similar to No. 3 and the other two but runs like this...

Lilith - 7 pool with Beckon Malifaux and Rapid Growth

Cherub

Nekima with True Mother

Black Blood Shaman

5 X Terror Tots

 

Keep the shaman someone near the centre and have Nekima and Lilith either side with some tots chopping through people. It might not be ultra competitive but it is fun to play.

 

last game I played with this I ended up with 6 tots, 2 young and 2 mature along with Nekima, the shaman and lilith.

[DeadManTalking]

I still find that Dreamer does the growth thing better than other masters.

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Dreamer + 4 Pool
 - Dreams of Pain (5)
 - Otherworldly (2)
 - On Wings Of Darkness (1)
Daydream (2)
Daydream (2)
Nekima (13)
 - The True Mother (2)
 - Rapid Growth (1)
Doppleganger (7)
Young Nephilim (6)
Terror Tot (4)
Terror Tot (4)

 (exported from CrewFaux)

Turn one run the tots and young into defensive positions, you're attempting to create a funnel through which you will drag your opponents models pouncing them as many times as you can. Summon the twins and try to give them fast or at the very least remove slow with empty night. Same thing with the twins place them in the funnel with Lelu giving them pounce and focusing then Lilitu drags whatever you want dead into your crew. Try to get the got to get the killing blow but if whatever you're dragged in survives you charge it with Nekima and then grow.

[Ludvig]

Thanks for those suggestions. I'm likely never touching Dreamer with a ten foot pole but it's interesting to see variations.

I played a growth list the day before yesterday. Only grew a single tot into a young because Wong blasted half my crew to death turn 2 but the homegrown young did really well while Lilith soloed half his crew so I ended up winning the game.

 

I don't consider grow to be the overshadowing goal of my list really. I'm thinking that you start a couple of nephilim with faces and if an opportunity presents itself you switch into grow before making the kill. A shaman in the list makes it so you don't need to stress out about that the grow upgrade until you're about to defeat a non-peon and they also offer nice damage without any opposed duels. (If we discuss upgrades I think Lilith's new one will make all nephilim a fun prospect again.)

[Philosfr]

As a primary Lilith player, I discarded grow lists early in the process of learning her, and eventually most of the Nephilim as well (besides Lilitu). I feel like grow lists are a bit of a "trap", in that it's difficult to work on its own unless you actively work towards making it happen. And Malifaux is usually got enough going on that this becomes a distraction to the goal of Schemes & Strategies. If you're interested in Lilith & Nephilim, that's one thing, and in that case I'd say steer clear of grow lists. 

If a grow list is what you want, I'll definitely echo others that Nekima & Brood Mother is great for it. Nearly mandatory in my mind, since she's also very good even if the grow part fails. 

Barbaros is also going to be very effective. First, his Challenge can help draw attention away from nearby Tot's until they get a chance to grow. Second, his built-in trigger on his attack is custom built for grow lists. Instead of killing a target, it's paralyzed, reduced to 1, and pushed in any direction, likely triggering a pounce to kill it and grow. 

I've never felt like I got enough mileage out of the Blackblood Shaman to warrant the cost, but that's largely because I tend to run Lilith with a very different crew style these days without a lot of Nephilim. I don't have enough experience really to judge him.

[Philosfr]

As a side comment, Cherub vs Primordial

I love the Primordial Magic. The Rush of Magic pays for the cost, the incorporeal lets it move around to where it's needed (and stay safe early game) and I can even get use out of the attack to targets insignificant. That's great when PM is hanging out in the backfield to stay alive and some scheme runner is making an end-run to drop markers in your deployment. Wait until late in the round when hands are depleted then cast. Then take advantage of incorporeal to walk through a wall or something to avoid the rebuttal.

Cherub is also good, but needs to be more involved to take advantage of his tricks, while also being more expensive. PM is valuable just standing around doing nothing. I tend to take the Cherub only when there's schemes or strategies that requires (2) Interacts. Being able to move the Cherub into position, then move something else in and take that (2) as a (1) is invaluable. more so than the (1) as a (0) I feel, though I get use out of both if Cherub is along.

The Cherub might see more play with Lilith's new terrain upgrade now that I think about it. I gotta see how it's little aura is worded, but it could be more useful in non-interact situations with that.

[Ludvig]

@Philosfr Cheers!

I have been eyeing the BBS for his ability to do lots of unresisted damage which can be really devastating against some targets. Since their errata you can just apply blackblood to whatever you gave the condition to which should make them work with other models. My grow lists have been focused around a couple of nephilim with a thousand faces and three tots (since I don't own any other significant 4 or 5 ss models in faction I need them to schemerun no matter what list I try so it's not much of a sacrifice). I mostly have nephilim and the darkened models so if I played non-grow it would be darkened.

My default mode of playing is Lucius before his errata. After that I have been trying my hand at guild McMourning. That might also tell you a little about my baseline for what is good. Even with my subpar grow lists, Lilith has felt amazingly powerful! Growing stuff is less effort than just trying to get Lucius to have a single live target for his obey-stuff at the end of the game. I will definitely be on the prowl for a cheap Nekima now that people will hopefully get the new alt.

[DeadManTalking]

Which nephilim are you running with A Thousand Faces?

[Argentbadger]

On 8/23/2017 at 6:28 AM, Ludvig said:

I don't consider grow to be the overshadowing goal of my list really. I'm thinking that you start a couple of nephilim with faces and if an opportunity presents itself you switch into grow before making the kill.

This is probably the best approach to grow lists.  My favourite is this, or some variation upon it:

Barbaros (One Thousand Faces), Nekima (One Thousand Faces), 3 Terror Tots and a Black Blood Shaman

I've used this lot with only very slight variations in tournaments using Collodi (link and link) and Lilith (link, link, link link and link).  I played the crew with summoning Dreamer (losing the Shaman as the points are super tight here) but in the only tournament game so far (link) I was under such pressure from the start that I never got going with the Grow shenanigans.  It worked well in a couple of friendly games though, and I also have had success with Pandora in the same crew.  I have no reason to think that Lynch couldn't also lead the crew effectively, but haven't tested it.

Note that in some of the linked games I didn't Grow even a single Tot.  Sometimes it simply isn't practical or advantageous to do it, and you need to use your experience to know whether any particular situation will help you.  It's important to point out that (except for a few cases where I didn't even get as far as swapping in Rapid Growth) the other player has to always work around the possibility that you might be able to turn a wounded Young Nephilim into a fully-healed Mature which can swoop off to cause havoc.  So there is a positional side to this that can be exploited even if the mechanical side does nothing.  And after all, Rapid Growth is only a single soulstone so I don't consider it a major waste even if it does very little in the game.

[Ludvig]

40 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

Which nephilim are you running with A Thousand Faces?

I've tried it a couple of times and with my limited model pool it has been Barbaros, Graves and a mature neph in different combinations. I like to have it on an enforcer to be able to swap for retribution's eye if I need to ignore armor rather than grow stuff. Last game I just started a shaman so I grew a tot into a young without needing to even change into the upgrade. Unfortunately that shaman died before he had the chance to get silly with black blood pustule.

Thanks @Argentbadger. Will read those.