Henchman hardcore

[The Governor-General]

So I would actually set up the Riflemen on the close deployment line so that they're toeing into the turf zone (remember, Turf War is 6" out from a 30mm marker, so a tiny bit of Turf War extends into each close deployment zone).  That way, none of your models has to move.  Queeg can force each of your Rifleman to do a (0) out of activation, which thanks to Dashel, can be a Focus.  Now each of your Riflemen can do two focused shots with double positives and added rams on their activations, and they have companion if you really need to set up a one two punch.

If someone gets into combat, both Dashel and Queeg will get positives from Promises, and Queeg can just whip the enemy out of combat before companioning to a Rifleman to blow them away.

Your Riflemen should never be doing 2 damage, and don't ever waste points on Watch my Back when the Riflemen natively have Companion  

 

[Ludvig]

I ran this list in one of our tournaments a while back after debt and onr before debt.

Archie with hulking leap and I think corpse armour has a 14,7 or something threat range. I deployed as you said in the centre to score turn one and Archie hulked + charged and used attack expert and naturally lucked out with a mod so both riflemen were dead first activation and even if I had won initiative he was a few millimeters out of their shot range. 

I also ran it against the Nekima Candy hell list and something with Valedictorian. I think they got to actually shoot against the Valedictorian but I ended up losing solidly anyway.

Might be that I'm a truly awful player (haven't ruled that possibility out myself) but I'm not just theorising on people having counters, I've played it in six HH matches.

I've done a lot better with Ryle and a guardian because few lists have anything to ignore armour although I've never won an event with him either.

[The Governor-General]

Sure, but the man doesn't have Ryle.  If you know they're bringing Nekima, or Archie, you're just kind of boned.  Nekima and Archie are just sort of min/maxing the nature of Henchman Hardcore to begin with.  Certainly, my HH list is Phiona, Frank, Jury and Effigy, but he doesn't have any of those models.  Given that he has Dashel and Queeg, Riflemen is something that can work and synergizes, but is obviously weak vs any 3AP model that can clear 12" and attack in one activation.  It turns out that in a small point format, putting as many stones into one model as possible is really strong.  Who knew?

If Guild ever got a 13 stone Henchman, that would become the obvious HH list, just kind of by default.  Some dumb horse mounted model with Ch10, min3 plus crit strike, Arm 2, and Attack Expert or whatever. Any model with the ability to concentrate so much killing power with the speed to deliver it on turn one, along with the durability to survive a full turn in combat means that you're pretty much guaranteed to destroy your opponent's ability to score Turf War before they can hope to score Assassinate, or indeed, prevent a table wipe.  That's sort of peak HH, and unsurprisingly, the factions that have access to those types of models (Neverborn, Ressers) tend to dominate that format precisely because of their existence. 

The best Guild can do is to try to be durable enough to survive a turn of that, married to enough killing to be able to knock it out in a turn.  Certainly, if either of the Nekima/Archie lists loses the 13 stone henchmen, they've basically lost (unless they've already prevented Turf War before dying).  We can do that by boosting Df so high it becomes almost unreachable (Phiona+Frank), or by having high armor and hoping they can't get through it (Ryle), and using our henchman's inherent killiness to gang up on the target and bring it down.  Adding in some healing for support (Guardian, Effigy, Jury) is more or less the only way to hope to survive those lists.

[Ludvig]

@The Governor-General A very good point but the post specifically asked "or should I just get Ryle?"  I think if doing well is important to you: get Ryle. That being said I usually try to not encourage people to just buy everything so your tactical advice is very sound if one stays with the models that are available. Especially since several other models would be needed to play Ryle at top efficiency.

[The Governor-General]

Yeah, I think a list centered on Ryle will be better than a Dashel list, but you can't just throw Ryle into any old HH list and expect it to work.  "Buying Ryle to get gud at HH" implies also getting models that synergize with him.  Dashel+Queeg exist to boost the Rifelmen, whereas Ryle needs models that boost him specifically.  That means you need Frank to boost his terrible Df4, you need means of healing, which usually means either or both of a Guardian and the Effigy.  Since Frank's buff is so important to Ryle specifically... you really want Wade In on Frank, so the list writes itself.

Ryle, Frank (Wade In), Guardian, Effigy.

Now, I've won tournaments handily with that list (though Nekima and Archie weren't present...), but again, "just buying Ryle" isn't sufficient, as he needs his support pieces.  Otherwise, he's a slow Df4 model.

I actually think the best Guild list right now is Phiona, Frank, Jury and Effigy.  Phiona can get up to Df9, Jury can heal and force willpower duels to trigger Phiona hitting, plus Fees, and both Frank and Phiona can do teleport/pushes to get support pieces out of a jam, plus everyone has 2" engagement.  Again though, that implies a lot of additional purchases.

[Ludvig]

Very much agreed. Also: that list looks mean!  

[Impact UK]

As I generally suck at HH last time we did this I just did a fun list and went with Francisco, Abuela, Santiago & a Pistolero.  Now I did do quite well with this list and stole second place, but I feel it was more luck of the cards over having any list building skills.

[Figgydor]

thanks for the inputs and detailed analysis!  the "or should I just buy Ryle" comment was not a serious one  I hate the idea of buying a model (and as mentioned, additional models just to make it work) just to increase my success rate at HH. I just wanted to see if there are obvious model picks and synergies for the henchmen I already have.

that being said, I ended up playing a HH game last night. took dashel (arrest him for triggers, lead lined coat), executioner and two riflemen. I forgot Queeg at home  opponent played Langston, Joss and two spiders. managed to take down Langston, but lost the executioner and finally Dashel. those spiders are nasty! they engaged my riflemen so they couldn't shoot most of the time and took down their DF. I expected a worse fate, it was a small victory to kill Langston, but there's not much to do after that. 

[Figgydor]

16 hours ago, The Governor-General said:

I actually think the best Guild list right now is Phiona, Frank, Jury and Effigy.  Phiona can get up to Df9, Jury can heal and force willpower duels to trigger Phiona hitting, plus Fees, and both Frank and Phiona can do teleport/pushes to get support pieces out of a jam, plus everyone has 2" engagement.  Again though, that implies a lot of additional purchases.

this is something that might be doable for me down the road if I decide to get Nellie's box. the Jury is on her way, my SO has Frank and the Effigy, so if he's not playing them, i might take them  

[Ludvig]

Sidir is expensive but since ap are so few in HH I think his ability to swap out as the target when someone goes for your leader can prevent assassinations pretty well, especially if they do it by charging.

[Figgydor]

plus, he can hit back (which, admittedly, was rare for me)

[The Governor-General]

2 hours ago, Figgydor said:

I ended up playing a HH game last night. took dashel (arrest him for triggers, lead lined coat), executioner and two riflemen. I forgot Queeg at home  opponent played Langston, Joss and two spiders. managed to take down Langston, but lost the executioner and finally Dashel. those spiders are nasty! they engaged my riflemen so they couldn't shoot most of the time and took down their DF. I expected a worse fate, it was a small victory to kill Langston, but there's not much to do after that. 

That's rough.  Queeg is sort of clutch for that list, not only for Promises, but because he's really your only hope once your Riflemen are engaged.  As you noted, the engaging models don't even have to be particularly effective in combat (Steam Arachnids) to completely shut down the Riflemen for the remainder of the game.  Being able to whip enemies out of engagement, and then Companion into the Rifleman to shoot them is really your only defense.  An Executioner certainly brings a decent amount of melee power, but he's sort of working at cross purposes with the Riflemen since he wants to be engaged.  Oh well, you did the best you could.   Joss and Langston are difficult to kill under any circumstance.

[Figgydor]

yup, it was still a good experiment and learning experience. 

[Gnomezilla]

Speaking of difficult to kill, is there any potential mileage in bringing one of our wave 5 debuffers into henchman hardcore? Investigators are weak with models having a greater variety of attack actions these days. Quellers could bring multiple tools to ruin your enemy’s day (armor? what shielding? incor-what now?), but they have no durability. Riotbreakers are a tad too slow and single-purpose: I’d rather bring a guardian.

[Ludvig]

A queller seems like it would mesh well with the format. I can imagine a Ryle mirror match where one Ryle ignores the armour on the other Ryle, should be a pretty onesided affair.  Plenty of models count on some form om reduction and you can guess where they will be to shut down triggers or juat cover the entire scoring area by turn 2. 

[Joachim]

I'm playing my first henchman hardcore games next week at an event.

I'm thinking of running Judge + recruiter + death marshal + effigy.

 

My model pool is quite limited:

Lady J box

Executioner

Riflemen

DM recruiter

Lone marshal

Effigy

Abuela

Emissary

Jury

 

Questions:

 

1. What upgrades would you guys run? Badge of office seems good because of ETL, but it is also quite expensive.

2. What crew would you guys field based on my model pool? I think the recruiter does work because of the hard to kill aura, and the death marshal can come in clutch by burrying someting important.

 

[Ludvig]

Sounds pretty solid from the limited model pool.

Not sure if Judge can take lead lined coat when leading but if he can that would be solid. 

You could also take two recruiters, effigy and Judge and still have ss for upgrades. Lead lined coat and a debt to the guild are the obvious choices I would say.

[Joachim]

Pretty sure llc is non leader. Didnt think of that. Thx

[Joachim]

I've played three games yesterday against @whodares and i was pretty pleased with results.

I've played the following list:

Judge

-debt to the guild

Jury

Death marshal recruiter

Brutal effigy

 

I won all of the 3 games and the crew worked really well. I was surprised with all of the synnergy between these models. Jury is just such a solid model at 8 stones. She does so many different things. With 5 stones i was also surprised by the judges resillience. Especially with jury and effigy heals as well as htk aura.

Conclusion: this may not be the most optimal crew but it is thematic and has a lot of synnergy, so it is really fun and straight forward to play.

[whodares]

To elaborate on this as his opponent on why I think this is one of the best possible lists for this format:

1. Killing Judge should not be possible
2. A lot of hard-hitting ranged damage withing the 6" scoring zone
3. Hard to Kill on both your heavy hitters
4. A lot of damage

Specifically the following: 

1. A Recruiter with a 6 card hand to keep a single model alive should be able to keep that model alive. Since Judge can do all his damage from range if required, he can also stay back and out of range of your opponent. Even if your opponent can get Judge down to the HtK, he can still be buffed by the Effigy and heal a possible 4 wounds in a single activation. Not bad I'd say.

Your opponent will be forced to use cards to land all his attacks, while you don't really care about that. They just can't kill Judge as long as you have even a single card in your hand for their final attack, which means they will have to hit with all their AP to burn through it to make Judge dead. If everyone has 2 AP, they will have to hit with 6 out of 8 attacks to burn through it. Chances are it just becomes impossible from round 3 onwards due to the amount of damage Guild outputs.

 

2. Since models have to be within 6" to score, they will most likely be within  the range of your models to get hit. Effigy hands out slow thanks to Jury, which means your opponent is becoming more and more limited in that he's able to do. The classic "get close to the snipers" doesn't work here, as these models are just as proficient in close combat as they are in ranged combat.

 

3. Since both Judge and Jury are Marshalls they are protected by the Recruiter. I personally find Jury overtuned for all be brings in both utility as damage and expect him ot get hit with the nerf bat in the mid-year errata. As long as you have cards and they are within 4" of Recruiter, they will not die. Every attack eats up a card from the Guild player, but the retribution will be harsh and painful for you.

 

4. Guild doing what Guild does best: killing is the best denial. Guild benefits tremendously from having no need for scheming and just straight-up brawling. This list has the advantage of having an unkillable leader model that can output a huge amount of damage.

 

 

That's how I experienced this list.

My best list against this was my Ten Thunders list:

 

Sensei Yu (Low River Style)

Katanaka Sniper x2

Shadow Effigy

 

Low River Style made Yu suprisingly durable and he also healed the Effigy from HtK twice, which ate up a decent chunk of AP. I first-turned focus shotted the effigy twice, which killed it and gave me activation advantage. Unfortunately the cards were not in my advantage and I flipped low cards on  defense and focussed attacks for the rest of the game, while Joachim managed to get a high flip and killed a sniper before he could activate and re-activate. Had the sniper lived, I would have put 4 more attacks on Judge and he would not have had the cards required to keep him alive. This was more a greedy play by Joachim as he could have easily killed the snipers before Yu and he would not have had the possibility of his leader dying.

[Gnomezilla]

Warning: I played the marshals into another Guild henchman hardcore list...which took Dampening Field. To be honest, the composition of the other side didn’t matter beyond that. Removing auras defanged the guild marshals’ synergies with ease—no more discard to avoid death, no more discard for masks—and then it was a matter of the opposing crew mopping up.

[Joachim]

Yeah, definetly. Every mechanic has counterplay. Its also just a 4 inch aura so pushing him out of positon. Even placing a big based model in between blocks the aura.

The crew operates fine without the synnergies though. 

[thewrathchilde]

so.... there was some discussion about Ryle above and things to run with him in HH format. I have been going back and forth between two builds- whether to run Frank as my other big model or Phiona. With Frank you get better survivability on Ryle (from El Mayor) and with Finesse he is pretty survivable as well. In this build I take Wade In and Lead Lined Coat.

I played this version tonight against a Ten Thunders- Huggy, 2 x Illuminated, and Torakage and it was brutal. Turn 1 Frank put a couple of points of damage on an Illuminated, The Queller enchanted Ryle's weapons, the Effigy burned an activation and buffed Rye, Ryle smoked the Illuminated and put some damage on the other healing back some damage he had taken from ranged. Turn 2 buffed Ryle, charged in and tied his models up, flailed randomly and put a few wounds on the Torakage, and Finessed to ensure he had Huggy and the other Illumianted tied up without a whole lot of concern for his safety. The Queller repeated buffed Ryle and attempted to put Huggy on negatives (unsuccessfully). Huggy attempted to obey Ryle- failed once, succeeded once- and forced Ryle to open fire on the Effigy and hit the trigger to shoot at the Queller as well. Ryle went in on Huggy with critical strike and a moderate damage reduced him to 1 wound with the first attack and then hit the Black Joker for damage on the second (I had the Red Joker in hand but was saving it, in retrospect I should have used it on the damage for the first attack to one shot Huggy- I got greedy and thought I could do it without using the Joker). Turn 3 the Effigy buffed Ryle and then I chain activated into Ryle who put Huggy down and then finished off the 2nd Illuminated and he conceded. 

Worked really well. Don't know how well it would work against a Nekima crew or an Archie crew will have to try it out but with Tomes or Stones for Armor and healing from the Effigy buff it might make for a decent game. 

My other version (haven't played it yet) is with Phiona instead of Frank. Phiona starts out with Hard to Kill instead of needing the upgrade to get it and with LLC she is pretty survivable giving me the space for an upgrade on Ryle. Obviously 2 x upgrades on her would make her even better (Wrath of the Guild of Debt to the Guild) but I would rather have it on Ryle to give me the points for Numb to the World to stop conditions, lures, obeys, etc. 

I am debating which version will be better- Phiona is higher defense (up to 7) and she is unimpeded giving me greater maneuverability allowing her to use terrain better and gives me the upgrade for Ryle making him less susceptible to tricks. The Frank version makes Ryle more survivable (higher Def/WP) which gives him some protection against tricks (though not as much as NTTW) and Frank is better for tying up mid-range and chaff.

I will have to try out both against the power HH lists and see what how they fare for me. I welcome feedback and thoughts as well. 

[Ludvig]

Both lists sound good! Small note: Huggy cannot use Heed my voice on leaders. Many condition-applying and obey-like attacks say non-leader.

[thewrathchilde]

Good catch. Will have to mention that to my opponent. Neither of us noticed it.

So accustomed to master/non-master instead of leader/non-leader. In normal games it doesn’t make a difference but in HH where the boss isn’t a master BUT is a leader it matters.