the sky is not falling Future of Malifaux (Game)

[Kaptain_Konrad]

Hello, I've come to discuss the future of this great game Malifaux and some possible concerns about it's future health for the Wyrd. This isn't meant to be a negative thread but an actual discussion on what could be done or considered. I know I'm just a JoeSmo with not much experience, but what the heck.

So the biggest concern is what does the game hold for in 2+ years? It's Rules are pretty solid amongst any game out there (IMO) and the only thing I can see being changed to it is clarification and a mass retooling of older models. Other game companies (GW, WM-H) have this philosophy where they release a book, Half its rules are good and the other half are garbage, that gets fixed in a future edition. Hence why GW is now on 8th edition and only now seem to be producing rules that are generally balanced, thanks to a new C.E.O.

The next thing is model bloat, It feels like Wyrd is experimenting with more higher cost minions and lower cost Henchman, so that new models are not directly competing with established models at the same cost. But to combat bloat, I assume it's just best to not produce more models, but that makes stagnation, which is also bad.

So now we are seeing a smart move by them, by releasing less models at a time and with early release only being available at GenCon. Previous GenCons you'd see almost the whole book available instead of the 2 per faction (minus Alts) we have this GenCon, which is a smart move on their part. we'll probably only see two-ish models a months to spread the releases out to keep a steady flow of income coming from their flagship. But this can only last so long, so what can they do?

Release a new faction. This would keep a steady flow for a while as they catch it up, while making a few models for the other factions along side it. The initial release could be 3 Masters, 5-6 minions, 6 enforcers and 2 extra henchmen.

As for what type of faction, well, one that would hopefully fit into what is going on in the world, and my suggestion would be a pseudo (maybe religious) zealot faction from earthside. I personally have always liked the super religious factions in games (brotherhood from WZ:R, SoB, Church from Anima Tactics).  They could have formed after/during the time frame of The Other Side with Guild having lost control and this group seeing the horrors of what came from the portal, and wanting vengeance. Then, after seeing how bad it is in Malifaux, seek out the purify/exterminate/crusade/save the things/people. A mechanic they could use is self damage to gain bonuses. Like dealing 2 unpreventable damage to make their attack do 2 more damage, take 2 damage to gain focus. 

So, what do y'all think? Am I crazy, what do you think about the future of this great game?

[retnab]

I think TOS is actually one of the healthiest things that will happen for Malifaux.  It lets them produce models (aka: still bring in that ever important $) without increasing any model bloat Breachside, although as you mentioned the fact that they're trying to diversify model roles and points values has certainly been really helping there as well (I know in the Arcanist faction I don't currently feel like there's a ton of stepping on toes, though I don't use Beasts so there may be some there I'm not aware of).

As far as the core rules, I think the only part of the core that really could use another look is how verticality is used, but that's probably a significant enough change that it'd need a whole new edition and I don't think we're at that level of falling sky where it'd be too worth it ATM, as there's still not a ton of times when it even comes up (and it would mean models like Kaeris would also need a total overhaul on how things like Grab & Drop work probably).

[Kaptain_Konrad]

Yeah, it's just small companies starting more games is always very risky, I just hope that if it does fail (I don't want it to fail) they can bounce back. I'd also add that a clearer timing page could be done along side vantage points.

[Ludvig]

Sounds like your zealots stole their thing from gremlins

I'm not too worried about model bloat. Ican hardly keep up as it is these days but as long as I can keep having a chance at winning with older models that's ok. You don't need to own every model and two models could share a similar job if they have different keywords.

I saw a post a while back about splitting the existing factions in two. That would keep hiring pools small but allow an influx of new models. They could also do a step back towards m1e wher masters more or less only hired from certain keywords and you needed henchmen to unlock other keywords.

[Kaptain_Konrad]

Yeah, similar to gremlins, but balanced 😉.

I can see splitting happening,  just how would Outcasts split?

[Gnomezilla]

10 hours ago, Kaptain_Konrad said:

Yeah, similar to gremlins, but balanced 😉.

I can see splitting happening,  just how would Outcasts split?

Mercenaries and pariahs, or 'clean' and 'unclean' as I call them. They're one of the easier factions to split.

Guild would be tricky. Girls versus boys? The Status Quo, headed by Lucius, versus those who are changing with the times?

[-Loki-]

To combat model bloat, what I'd like to see is stronger synergy between thematic models and masters, but still have some 'wildcard' models that work across masters within a faction.

For example, you've got the Mature Nephilim, which is Liliths thematic Enforcer beater. However, there's no real difference taking that or a Teddy, for the same cost, to do the same thing. They have their differences, but they're both filling the same Enforcer beater niche. There's plenty of reasons for Teddy to go with masters its more thematically tied to - Gobble you Up and Terrifying are nice Wp duels for a Pandora crew, and Smell Fear triggers off the Wp duels Pandoras thematic models cause. He's also a Nightmare which has built in synergies with the Dreamer - Daydreams can push him, the Dreamer can heal him, give him extra actions and more pushes, give him Fast and remove conditions.

There's... not nearly as much synergy with the Mature Nephilim, or any Nephilim, and Lilith. For this reason she's a very popular master without her thematic Nephilim. She doesn't do any more for them than she does for other Neverborn in general. Barbaros is considered more of a model for Titania these days, and Nekima is generaly fielded with any crew. Now that's not bad that there's synergies outside of their thematic crew, but to have so little in your thematic crew creates more of a bloat problem.

About new Factions, at this point I think there could be room for a Tyrants faction, since after Titania waking up, the Tyrants are going to be taking the threat much more seriously and possibly even start working together. You've got some masters that are good choices for dual faction, and some good opportunity to introduce some of the 'missing' tyrants.

Maybe even have the Tyrant models that go over split from their current faction, but have Infiltration to keep some of their old thematic models that don't go with them.

[Kaptain_Konrad]

Would be cool if certain master got an upgrade cars that gave them tyrant and changed factions.  

For splitting guild I'd say old guard vs new, with Lucius going NB since isn't he outted?

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Kaptain_Konrad said:

Yeah, similar to gremlins, but balanced 😉.

I can see splitting happening,  just how would Outcasts split?

Human mercs on one side and weird nonhumans on the other probably.

[Ludvig]

@-Loki-

I think black blood and grow are supposed to be the synergistic rules for Lilith and the mature. People just generally consider grow not worth it. I think it has it's place now that we have both a condition+kill and a marker+kill scheme. The problem is rather that nephilim are considered worse than othher options and hardly get taken at all, that wouldn't be the case if Lilith had access to mostly nephilim. It would alao stop Nekima showing up in almost every list.

[-Loki-]

Grow is fine, but it's not something that makes you hire a Mature, it's something you try to aim to grow Tots and Young into.

The thing with Lilith is nothing she does by default synergises with her crew. Pandora, by default, causes a lot of Wp tests, which ping Misery, trigger Smell Fear, and is enhanced by Wp debuffs like I Can Hear Them and Web. The crew itself buffs each other by causing or penalizing the failure of Wp tests. The Dreamer has a standard tactical action when used on Nightmares or Minions has a wide array of beneficial uses, as well as having a healing aura for Nightmares and his totems being able to push them as well. These are crews where taking thematic models is encouraged because they all work off each other either by unit design or keyword use, and the masters do so as well.

Lilith does none of that. Aside from Growth, her skills are, with the exception of Summon the Blood, entirely generic. One upgrade works off Black Blood, and one upgrade works off Nephilim. Lilith herself on her base card does nothing for Nephilim specifically, and her most popular upgrades do nothing for them specifically. The same could be said for Zoraida who is a Swampfiend but does nothing specifically for Swampfiends.

About Nephilim being considered worse than other Neverborn units, that's not entirely true. Terror Tots are still considered great scheme runners. They're the most effective when used with Jakob Lynch, rather than Lilith. Young Nephilim aren't bad, they're unfortunately 1 soulstone off Illuminated. Not many 6ss/7ss models in the game stack up well to Illuminated. The Mature Nephilim is often relegated to Nekima, but has his own niche (well it does when people realize Nekima can't take Retributions Eye). Lilitu is considered to be the factions best Lure, and still a good model in its own right. Nekima is the default beater for basically the whole faction. The Black Blood Shaman is fine in a Grow list, which seems to be its intended function.

The only Nephilim that are really considered 'bad' are Lelu and the starter Nephilim.

This is where bloat comes from. Model redundancy. Why should I take a Young Nephilim with Lilith when I can take an Illuminated? Well, with Lilith, Young Nephilim should shine, the way an Insidious Madness does with The Dreamer or Pandora. Model redundancy can be fixed when thematic choices with a master are benefited.

[Myyrä]

1 hour ago, -Loki- said:

About Nephilim being considered worse than other Neverborn units, that's not entirely true. Terror Tots are still considered great scheme runners. They're the most effective when used with Jakob Lynch, rather than Lilith.

Terror Tots are fine, but they don't really seem to compare that favorably to Gups. Some other factions would be pretty excited to have them, though, so they aren't really bad.

1 hour ago, -Loki- said:

Young Nephilim aren't bad, they're unfortunately 1 soulstone off Illuminated. Not many 6ss/7ss models in the game stack up well to Illuminated.

I take it you haven't taken a look at Gremlins lately (or ever). Illuminated don't really even hold a candle to their 7ss models.

1 hour ago, -Loki- said:

The Mature Nephilim is often relegated to Nekima, but has his own niche (well it does when people realize Nekima can't take Retributions Eye).

Mature Nephilim suffers from the "expensive model with no extra AP" -syndrome. There is no known cure and all the documented cases have been fatal.

 

[Rob Lo]

I would hope to see something that revamps the height/vantage/LoS/intervening terrain problems, which would only need to be a version 2.1, and trigger timing clarification/simplification, which unfortunately because of how it would affect so many cards would be a 2.5 or 3.0 situation. I'd be fine with either of those at this point, but not sure we really need a full 3.0 change just yet.

I think model bloat is a real thing, for me thinking about starting a new crew at this point almost feels like a chore, figuring out what might work with what, simply because everything is spread out over (soon to be) 5 books with dual faction and merc stuff spread everywhere. The official app with readable cards would help with that massively, and I think not having that out a year ago has lost potential "all in/main game" type customers, simply because other games have unified info on peoples' phones, and people want to stare at their phones these days.

More models has to happen, of course, Wyrd needs to make money. Finding the right new models that will be useful but not discount already existing stuff is important. Not always going to happen, sure, but when it becomes obvious that certain models just don't stack up against other options, having that model sit in a bag for a year and a half or more until it gets a 'fix' makes people wonder if they should bother buying anything else. I'm fine if erratas happen only twice a year, but the # of models being changed should be increased. Hell, it's not even errata, not that the model is broken, it's just 'you sold me this model and it's pointless, change it, try something different with it'.

Who knows what will actually happen, there's only so much of Wyrd to go around. Faux is still one of the most interesting games out there, it's just starting to get into its unruly teenage years.

[Ludvig]

8 hours ago, -Loki- said:

Grow is fine, but it's not something that makes you hire a Mature, it's something you try to aim to grow Tots and Young into.

This is where bloat comes from. Model redundancy. Why should I take a Young Nephilim with Lilith when I can take an Illuminated? 

I think you're contradicting yourself a little bit. If growth was fine it would make a young nephilim a superior choice to an illuminated (and you would want to take growth most of the time with Lilith because that synergy was just so powerful). If almost no one takes growth and a young nephilim instead of an illuminated then growth isn't fine because those are the same number of stones and growth could boost more than just that single young neph so with just one or two other nephilim in the list then growth + a young should be a viable choice over an illuminated.

That being said I agree that Lilith could use some more nephilim synergy since she is more or less exclusively hanging out with nephilim in the stories.

[spooky_squirrel]

8 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I think you're contradicting yourself a little bit. If growth was fine it would make a young nephilim a superior choice to an illuminated (and you would want to take growth most of the time with Lilith because that synergy was just so powerful). If almost no one takes growth and a young nephilim instead of an illuminated then growth isn't fine because those are the same number of stones and growth could boost more than just that single young neph so with just one or two other nephilim in the list then growth + a young should be a viable choice over an illuminated.

That being said I agree that Lilith could use some more nephilim synergy since she is more or less exclusively hanging out with nephilim in the stories.

An interesting idea would be modifying her Ca LOS to work similar to Rasputina's, only instead of Frozen Heart, it works through Black Blood. That aside,  as a master she does really well, so it's not that the theme needs to support her. So if the interest was to have a Nephilim subfaction, the Nephilim leader(s, if we include Nekima) would have to support the theme more or the theme would need more internal synergy (which introduces an inherent instability/fragility, but that's the trade off in play; also introduces complexity in testing).

[Ludvig]

That would be interesting. I wonder if she would stay top tier if she was forced into a nephilim-heavier crew. I would like to see more synergy between them. The thing is that tots have synergy with almost all the other nephilim, it's just that the synergy is mostly good if you're trying to grow and the tots aren't exactly beaters. If every nephilim had pounce it would make a bigger splash since most of them have pushes of some kind.

[spooky_squirrel]

14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

That would be interesting. I wonder if she would stay top tier if she was forced into a nephilim-heavier crew. I would like to see more synergy between them. The thing is that tots have synergy with almost all the other nephilim, it's just that the synergy is mostly good if you're trying to grow and the tots aren't exactly beaters. If every nephilim had pounce it would make a bigger splash since most of them have pushes of some kind.

If every non-unique nephilim (grow path, to include Mature) had pounce, Lilith's rooting supported by something pushing things around (no shortage there) would go from "ow ow ow" to "am I dead? I think I'm dead. Oh wow, that little punk baby thing now looks like a rangy punk teenager with hooves and claws"

[santaclaws01]

9 hours ago, Ludvig said:

That would be interesting. I wonder if she would stay top tier if she was forced into a nephilim-heavier crew. I would like to see more synergy between them. The thing is that tots have synergy with almost all the other nephilim, it's just that the synergy is mostly good if you're trying to grow and the tots aren't exactly beaters. If every nephilim had pounce it would make a bigger splash since most of them have pushes of some kind.

I don't think giving pounce to all the nephilim would help too much. A lot of their pushing is to help grow the Tots.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

I don't think giving pounce to all the nephilim would help too much. A lot of their pushing is to help grow the Tots.

I know it is that way now but if every nephilim had pounce you could set up insane pounce traps with Lilitu or Lilith. Facing a tot or two pouncing isn't that bad but facing two young nephilim and a mature and the young could both potentially trigger for more attacks on each pounce would probably be quite scary. You could also change grow so that any applicable model that happened to be near an enemy dying would be eligible for the reward regardless of which friendly model made the kill.

Just realized this is slightly off topic.

[4thstringer]

Getting away from pounce,  I love the idea of faction splits or, failing that,  in faction bonuses based on all in theme crews. 

[spafe]

Couldnt you theme/change things up by saying that you have to have... x amount of your crew sharing the keyword with your master?

Sorry, very new to all this, but would that work? so collette for example has showgirl, then 75% or all bar 3 models in her crew have to have showgirl too. Dunno what limit is good, and if its possible with other masters to do that sort of split... but then if it is, say that they get some sorta bonus for staying mono themed.

[retnab]

Please no... theme forces make games so much more dull and restrictive.

If we do get something like themes, I hope it's something very open, like gain a ss in your cache if you're 50% same type as your master and gain another if you're 80% same type. Something with a small bonus for those who want to play in theme but not so restrictive it becomes like WM/H who basically stated they want everyone only doing themes.

[spafe]

That was kinda what I had meant, somethink litte as an incentive to take themed crews, so if you mono theme you get a SS or 2 bonus (or extra... card in your hand or whatever) to reward a themed crew and that you've limited your options in crew selection

Sorry I dont play Warmahordes so dunno how they do it.

[Kadeton]

I'd quite like to see something along the lines of "synergy" upgrades, which could only be attached to a model if another model was in the same crew. How restrictive and keyword-themed those would be might be a strong point of contention, but it's a huge potential design space with a lot of interesting possibilities. One of the hardest things in the game is accounting for synergy between models, and unlocking specific upgrades based on crew composition might be an easier way to balance that.

[Ludvig]

I'd be in favour of upgrades that locked into themes. They shouldn't be too overpowering though, if people want to build themefree they ahould stand a chance.