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One of the new things you'll see about are the 'sticky notes' which you will occasionally see from the site Admins if something important shows up or is newsworthy, or if you happen to be in one of our many beta testing groups giving you an additional heads up when something new needs to be looked at or sorted.

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Thanks for your patience!

Nathan Caroland Nathan Caroland
EpicWaffle

Delude by Broken promises (for the moment)

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lame0   
On 8/9/2017 at 2:12 AM, Myyrä said:

That's what happens when you have so many good damage dealers that cost next to nothing. Buffing Howard Langston is much more attractive, because you just can't take three of him for a negligible cost. It's difficult to make good support models for beaters that cheap. They would need to cost 3-4ss, but would that be fair either?

I don't think your right. Some of the best models in gremlins are support pieces slop haulers, iron skeeters and Trixie all make our beaters more effective or last longer.  Beyond those I also think that the best masters in our faction bring the best support. Somer & Wong give out do it like this & oooo glowy which are imo what makes them great masters (without glowy I think wong would significantly worse). I think the fact that our master bring so much to the table is why we don't need as much support

The issue with the new models is that imo none of them can really stand alone (slop haulers & trixie are pretty great for their points even when you remove their support from the equation). The iron skeeter is I think one of the only model in gremlins that is used often and is really subpar without another model around. I think him basically giving your beater 3 extra ap on the alpha is so powerful in that scenario that it gets past its faults. 

Also its hard to take anything that doesn't have access to reckless for scheme running because why would I take something worse at it. (at least some good 0 action like mctavish or built in ability like banjonistas would make things closer). 

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On 8/8/2017 at 8:51 AM, EpicWaffle said:

I don't quite understand what they want to achieve with gremlins. Even about the upgrades, my fears are that they will just make the stronger master even stronger, and the less used ones even more "meh"

i might be pessimistic, but the more I understand the game, the more it seems that wyrd hasn't a clear idea about what gremlins need, while people are getting more and more salty about them, since this year they popped out from the shadows. Also, were still the smallest community among the factions, and spitting out an entire release of mediocre and situational models seems such a bad move even on the economical level.

I really wanna hope that the new upgrades and gg2018 will bring a new breath of fresh air to the game, otherwise it's getting quite monotonous (if you wanna play competitive, which is for me the best part about this game).

2

I agree that they have really lost their way with the faction. Most of our model release from the last few books have been out of sorts and really seemed to be more useful out of faction than in. I would blame the initial synergistic and self-destructive designs. Most games seem to really struggle with implementing synergy on a wide scale. Generally, you tend to either require so much of it to make your models function that it defeats the purpose (what I typically refer to as "Menoth Syndrom") or you have to either omit or counter it with future options. The issues with the self-destruction piece should be obvious but just in case...when your models have to hurt themselves to do what they do, then you either have to provide a healing mechanic, a replacement option, or make them cheaper than their contemporaries. We see each option implemented in Gremlin's and each comes with it's own opportunity cost (these often exacerbate "Menoth Syndrom" and also make the onion more fragile).

I think Gremlin's are at a point where these limitations are becoming very noticeable. Some great examples of these can be found in the Pigapult (which is expensive and always seems to work flawlessly in battle reports... wish mine was half as reliable) and models that lack the crucial key words "Gremlin" or "Pig" in their characteristic line (In a faction that is built heavily around those two words, models that don't have them tend to be shelf sitters).

I also agree that the current "hate" targeting the faction is really more attributable to the current Gaining Grounds Strats and Schemes than anything else. I might also add that it could also likely be due to the skill of players currently piloting Gremlin's in high profile events.

Unfortunately, what is competitive is usually sedated. With most factions this isn't usually an issue, they tend to be singular models or at the high end of the hiring pool (Think of that wonderful Mechanical Rider whi has had some work over the years). With ours, the complaints are generally targetted at our staple models which we need to function at all (Bayou Gremlin's who always seem to have 3-4 AP due to the perfect and consistent positioning of support models like the Slop Hauler and Iron Skeeters) or Slop Haulers (who always seem to be able to pass out the maximum amount of healing, remain highly mobile, and protected without support models tending them).

Sorry if this feels like a rant, it isn't intended to be but I have grown "crotchety" over the years.

On 8/8/2017 at 7:28 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

I feel that we really got the short end of the stick this time.

During the beta the basic argument seemed to be that our existing choices are so good/OP that we can't have the new stuff be competitive else it be OP.

(Or maybe they'll errata all our good models to oblivion next January so this stuff will start seeming super enticing!)

1

Complaints tend to come from players who don't actually play Gremlin's and have only seen them work spectacularly (i.e. near perfectly).

If you remember the old Red Joker debate it is a similar argument. The Red Joker's appearance is memorable because it is typically seen and does great things (perhaps on a damage flip) where as a lot of players rarely see the Black Joker cause many issues. Despite having the same card rarity (1 in 54), the Black Joker tends to pop out a lot less because if a player draws it into their control hand then it tends to sit there the rest of the game where as the red Joker is allowed to run. The appearance of the Red Joker is usually very memorable because it is either spectacular or pulls victory from defeat. The Black Joker tends to be less memorable because it's appearance is far from spectacular ;)

I really hope that they don't alter much for the faction with the next errata. The complaints seem to be more related to the current batch of Strats/ Schemes than anything else really. Let the Strats and Shcemes shift and see if the issue remains. I doubt it will.

On 8/8/2017 at 3:33 PM, trikk said:

My biggest issue with Burt is that he`s a Mercenary TBH. Same with Tavish. A lot of people are getting them and you can see them in probably 25% crews

I`m planning on buying Gremlins and giving them to a painter soon :D

 

So the problem with Gremlin's is the handful of models that can be hired out of faction and played with upgrades they were very likely never really tested with (yes I am confident in saying this). Again the faction is not the issue it is the models that can be cross pollinated out of faction. Easy errata there, remove the Mercenary Characteristic or restrict key abilities to only when hired in faction.

Without trying to sound condescending, I think once you start actually running Gremlin's yourself, your opinion on their power level will change dramatically. They really tend to be "feast or famine" (yes even the competitive ones). I have played Gremlin's since first edition and consider myself fairly adept with them. My community doesn't consider them broken or a NPE. Now if you want to talk about models needing serious errata's let's head on over to some of those Book 4 crews. That would be a pretty good place to start working on toning things down.

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@Omenbringeri agree with you completely especially about the fact that every time someone complains about them, seems to face gremlin's crews which always happens to have the perfect storm of cards and positioning (the slop hauler example is perfect). To stay on topic, what's your idea about the incoming ups? Do you feel like they're gonna bring some changes?

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 Well said, Omenbringer. I can't think of a better argument defending why gremlins are the way they are. 

 Maybe Burt and Mctavish should lose the merc characteristic as you said. Instead, Wyrd can give Moon Shinobi and Bushwhackers merc, let people try them out. 

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9 hours ago, EpicWaffle said:

@Omenbringeri agree with you completely especially about the fact that every time someone complains about them, seems to face gremlin's crews which always happens to have the perfect storm of cards and positioning (the slop hauler example is perfect). To stay on topic, what's your idea about the incoming ups? Do you feel like they're gonna bring some changes?

I haven't really looked at the upcoming books stuff (So will reserve judgment until I see the final copy) but based on the "new" Bajonistas I am not really that optimistic.

Sure they can aid our "Gremlin" models with some free movement and provide a card draw upon the death of a "non-pig" model within 6" (Which is interesting in and of itself) but they aren't particularly durable, encourage clustering the supported models, and one of their primary offensive action is a major danger for Gremlin crews. I am talking primarily about Pluck the Strings and its Paranoid condition. On the surface, it looks decent until you really analyze the condition. For the cost of 1 card or 2 damage, your opponent can force your models within 3 inches of it to have to take a fairly high WP duel to avoid gaining Paranoid themselves. This means your crew has to either avoid that model until the condition expires or stand the chance of suffering more than they did in return. With the clustering that is typical of Gremlin crews, this could potentially prove catastrophic (I would never risk using this action against a crew that has any access to out of activation movement tricks).

5 hours ago, anumberone said:

 Well said, Omenbringer. I can't think of a better argument defending why gremlins are the way they are. 

 Maybe Burt and Mctavish should lose the merc characteristic as you said. Instead, Wyrd can give Moon Shinobi and Bushwhackers merc, let people try them out. 

Funny how you never hear about either of those models (though there are quite a few others that could be up there) when people complain about our factional imbalances.

I think instead of Burt and McTavish losing the mercenary characteristic perhaps the cost of hiring out of faction needs to go up (No hiring affinity should be 2 SS additional per Out of Faction model, a hiring affinity tied to an ability (i.e. Marcus or Zoraida or Leveticus) should still be 1 SS). A lot of models that people seem to complain about are those taken out of their factions or intended crews. Large hiring pools and special hiring circumstances are incredibly difficult to balance, especially as model counts go up. It is just impossible to test everything and release a glut of new models every year.

I have already seen a thread speculating on what the next book will bring. Probably unpopular but, I hope the next book is third edition. The game is in a place where some major revisions to models (beyond the ability of errata's) needs to occur. There are also some core rules that simply don't function well, if at all. With the release of the Otherside (not my cup of tea but I hope it does well) perhaps Wyrd can finally slow their pace with Malifaux. Releasing a book and accompanying models (at least a few for each faction) every year is difficult to do, particularly in a game this complex.

One suggestion that I would offer is when third edition comes to fruition that they seriously consider returning the "Character" to the game. I am not asking for broken combos or any thing like that. I am simply asking that things that are sold together or themed together, function best in their intended crews and much less so out of them. Seamus and the Rotten Belles are a great example of this. Returning the "character" to the game would see the much-maligned Lure action limited outside of Seamus crews by linking one of those provided suits to Seamus instead of always being available regardless of Master.

Edited by Omenbringer
Crossing out my incorrect reading of action

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33 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

I haven't really looked at the upcoming books stuff (So will reserve judgment until I see the final copy) but based on the "new" Bajonistas I am not really that optimistic.

Sure they can aid our "Gremlin" models with some free movement and provide a card draw upon the death of a "non-pig" model within 6" (Which is interesting in and of itself) but they aren't particularly durable, encourage clustering the supported models, and one of their primary offensive action is a major danger for Gremlin crews. I am talking primarily about Pluck the Strings and its Paranoid condition. On the surface, it looks decent until you really analyze the condition. For the cost of 1 card or 2 damage, your opponent can force your models within 3 inches of it to have to take a fairly high WP duel to avoid gaining Paranoid themselves. This means your crew has to either avoid that model until the condition expires or stand the chance of suffering more than they did in return. With the clustering that is typical of Gremlin crews, this could potentially prove catastrophic (I would never risk using this action against a crew that has any access to out of activation movement tricks).

I understand how you could read it that way but luckily your reading is wrong. Note where the quotation marks end. The "Paranoia Pulse" is part of the Attack, not the Condition:

(1) Pluck the Strings (Ca 5 / Rst: Wp / Rg: 10): Target model gains the following
Condition until the end of the game: "Paranoid: At the start of this model's
Activation, it must discard a card or suffer 2 damage. Then end this Condition." All
enemy models within p3 of the target must succeed on a TN 14 Wp duel or gain
the Paranoid Condition until the end of the game.
M Dueling Banjos: After succeeding against an enemy, another friendly
Banjonista in play may immediately take the Pluck the Strings Action.

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Are you sure about that? Good to hear if so.

It isn't worded very well at all and I can see this one being asked about quite a bit either way.

Format wise they should put the description of gained conditions after all the other stuff. As is it just muddies things.

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Mason   
Just now, Omenbringer said:

Are you sure about that?

It isn't worded very well at all and I can see this one being asked about quite a bit either way.

Format wise they should put the description of gained conditions after all the other stuff. As is it just muddies things.

He's correct. The quotation marks denote the beginning and end of the Condition.

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I have wondered Mason, why not put the condition description at the end instead of the action text? Wouldn't that make it clearer?

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Mason   
5 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

I have wondered Mason, why not put the condition description at the end instead of the action text? Wouldn't that make it clearer?

Just because the way that the Action works. It's weird to say that a model gains Paranoid, not explain what Paranoid is, and then go on to explain what Paranoid is during the second part of the action. If you try to write it out a few ways with the condition at the end, you can kind of see what I mean.

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We will just have to disagree on that one Mason. I think it makes more sense to encapsulate everything the action does and then (with a clear distinctive space between lines) explain the condition.

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For me, this is just like the wording of Burt's "Slippery":

"When this model is targeted by an Attack Action, it may select a friendly model within 2" which is also a legal target to become the target instead. This model is immune to :pulse effects".

When I started playing, I thought this meant that the model onto which the damage was slipped was the model that became immune to pulse effects, because that sentence followed straight on from all the guff about the shifting of the damage.

Once I learned what it really meant, I  realised that Wyrd has the full stop at the end of the first sentence functioning also as a paragraph break. The :pulse immunity has nothing to do with the rest of Slippery - it's just gathered under the same heading, and space on a card is limited, so paragraph breaks won't work in all cases.

So now I read each new sentence on a card in isolation to what's gone before under any particular Ability or Action heading, and that seems to work out consistently correct.

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Although, the important point on the "Paranoid" condition is that Conditions are consistently encapsulated in parentheses, and go no further. Again, a paragraph break would be clearer, but if you treat the full stop as one, it works out.

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On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 4:45 PM, trikk said:

Howard is 12 SS. Francisco is 8 . Francois is 7. Burt is 7. Its not the damage output that people are complaining. I`m not going to get into another discussion about Gremlins because its boring but the issue with Howard and Frank vs Burt and Francois is: how much other stuff you get can in the crew. Now this is not a complaint but I just put it as food for thought.

 

Burt with TT? Oh my, did you see Tavish in TT with Recalled Training, Smoke Grenades and all the fast/focuses each turn? ;)

"The grass is always greener on the other side.." 

We might do better to stop complaining, and play more..

I'm not mad at you and i hope i give no offence: but 3 topic and you (but also others) Always say the same things.

Why don't you get Burt or Tavish??;););)

 

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trikk   
4 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

"The grass is always greener on the other side.." 

We might do better to stop complaining, and play more..

I'm not mad at you and i hope i give no offence: but 3 topic and you (but also others) Always say the same things.

Why don't you get Burt or Tavish??;););)

1) this was a joking post

2) I had Burt and Tavish with Nellie. I played against them in a Shenlong crew. I just sold all my Guild and those 2 with the rest. I will probably continue playing with them more

3) I`m having my first two games with Somer next thursday ;)

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Just now, trikk said:

1) this was a joking post

2) I had Burt and Tavish with Nellie. I played against them in a Shenlong crew. I just sold all my Guild and those 2 with the rest. I will probably continue playing with them more

3) I`m having my first two games with Somer next thursday ;)

then i'm sorry, but i read Always new complaint about gremlins, burt, tavish and reckless.

i'm already tired of Cuddles.. also for arcanists (and i don't play gremlins)

i'm very keen to se how happens with gg2018 :)

that's all. (off-topic mode off)

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trikk   
14 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

then i'm sorry, but i read Always new complaint about gremlins, burt, tavish and reckless.

i'm already tired of Cuddles.. also for arcanists (and i don't play gremlins)

i'm very keen to se how happens with gg2018 :)

that's all. (off-topic mode off)

I believe all cuddles were good for the game. This includes Austringers and Papa-In-a-Box.

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48 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

We will just have to disagree on that one Mason. I think it makes more sense to encapsulate everything the action does and then (with a clear distinctive space between lines) explain the condition.

It's a video game so doesn't have the same restrictions, but I always felt like Battlerite and its predecessor Bloodline Champions do this amazingly well. A typical ability description is exactly as you describe, ongoing effects are coloured differently and then described at the bottom. Definitely how I would make a game, the one issue being that Malifaux cards are fairly cramped and there might not be space.

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6 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Malifaux cards are fairly cramped and there might not be space.

 

They do appear to be gaining more text with each new wave. The mind abhors empty space.

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