Is Shadow Emissary a complete autotake?

[Math Mathonwy]

There's two Emissaries that I see a lot: Carrion and Shadow. And while Carrion is common it is nowhere near the omnipresence of the Shadow. I can't remember the last time I played against TT without the Shadow Emissary and further, I can't remember the last time I even saw a list posted online without it!

I mean, there must be lists out there that are being used that don't include the Shadow Emissary (maybe it's not as common with Asami?) but it seems that if a person has access to it, it hits the table very close to every time.

Have you seen competitively minded lists without it lately? Have you made such lists? Is there a reason to not take it (knowing the price tag is hefty, mind)? Are there differences between Masters?

Is it an autotake?

[Fetid Strumpet]

It's autotake for every master.

[Dogmantra]

I'm not sure it's quite a literal take every single game autotake, I think you can make an argument for Sensei Yu being better in certain situations and that taking both is too expensive, but it is very very good and worth taking nearly every time.

[Tokapondora]

It shares its auto-take spot with Yu. Every master has one or the other, though I'd say I veer more towards Yu with a lot of masters (moreso than I tend to see on this forum). McCabe, Mei and Shen I'm not playing without it, though for Lynch, Brewmaster, Misaki and Yan I find Yu a much better pick. Asami I've got to wait out til the upgrade comes out before I can really call that one, though I'm loving the range and flexibility on Yu for now. It's good but I honestly don't find it must-have good, and it largely depends on the master-upgrades it can take, the 0's Yu can take and how much of my crew is carrying an upgrade. Beyond that he's a nice damage track with mediocre defenses. Also Yu allows me a lot more freedom on repositioning and buffing, especially masters, and helps some with scheming to boot.

[santaclaws01]

27 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

It shares its auto-take spot with Yu. Every master has one or the other, though I'd say I veer more towards Yu with a lot of masters (moreso than I tend to see on this forum). McCabe, Mei and Shen I'm not playing without it, though for Lynch, Brewmaster, Misaki and Yan I find Yu a much better pick. Asami I've got to wait out til the upgrade comes out before I can really call that one, though I'm loving the range and flexibility on Yu for now. It's good but I honestly don't find it must-have good, and it largely depends on the master-upgrades it can take, the 0's Yu can take and how much of my crew is carrying an upgrade. Beyond that he's a nice damage track with mediocre defenses. Also Yu allows me a lot more freedom on repositioning and buffing, especially masters, and helps some with scheming to boot.

Yeah, I'm basically the same with my Emissary vs Yu divide, although I've been known to take both in Shenlong and Lynch lists. Also given that it looks like the conflux for Asami is going to have at least some interaction with flicker, I'm leaning more towards the Emissary with her for the future.

[Tokapondora]

Oh those are definitely the most contentious cases. Going through them all...

With Yan the possibility of ressurection and free fast are nice (though only happen up to once and twice a game respectively), but the rest requires me to take his brutal stick (which I have no space for) and imo needlessly tethers him to Ca 7, even though if I'd just taken it with the Shadow Conflux, Recalled Training or whatever I could let my Soul Porter prod it up to 9. Add to that Yan's need for good positioning to get the most out of that Lightning Dance and a solid healing of up to 4 never being wasted and I can't quite give it to the Emissary. I have tried fiddling about with the Terracotta Warrior, giving the Emissary Smoke Grenades at the start of the match and get him to Ca8-9, only swapping in the Ancestral Conflux when it looks like he's about to go down, but it's just a tad too fiddly and I prefer the Terracotta Warrior's ability to give me access to Yu's other upgrades in a pinch on top of all the ancestral protection.

Misaki is far too occupied with her own thing to bother getting in the Emissary's range, and Yu I feel provides a more wholesome "leader" for the rest of the crew while Misaki is gone. Also the extra stalk freeing up her 0. Also fast Misaki.

For the Brewmaster I have either a self push and a swill that costs a lot of poison, or someone who can drag himself around the battlefield doling out extra poison, putting up bubbles left and right and making the Brewmaster fast. Even the +1 poison damage doesn't do diddly here. 

Lynch always likes the extra damage, and that discard being free is lovely, but I feel one  on attacks and a push+draw isn't quite enough to sway me away from hypermobile/fast Lynch and double mulligans. Definitely a tough one though and I still occasionally dip into him just to see if I can truly make him work. I've really liked the Shadow Conflux in a more Brilliance-y list (moreso than the Hunger Conflux), especially with the stones for cards giving me two aces back, but I still feel Yu takes the cake with his versatility.

Shenlong is the only one where I've on occasion taken both (and gotten something good out of it), and only because the Peasants give him cheap activations to cancel out the price. Both great fits, work very well with Shen, but with Shen being a Yu 2.0 already and 3 card draw being far too nice to pass up the Emissary is definitely stuck in there. 

Mei doesn't have 0's, and while she tends to have a largely upgradeless crew opposite to that is free scrap for easy Railwalking and summons, the possibility for Burning hacking away at defenses and the odd free attack every now and then. 

And McCabe is really just perfect with it. You get a free 2 SS upgrade, a decently unit that can both benefit from its upgrades and toss them over, upgrades are spread across the crew from minions to henchmen - all allowing for more fast pushes... He's absolutely brilliant here, no contest, especially since McCabe is plenty pushy already really hitting Yu's with diminishing returns.

And for Asami, the  to minions is definitely nice, as is the  to focus, but he's not nearly as versatile or specialised yet to justify him over the, again, versatility of Yu's positioning, especially considering Asami's charge bubble. Though an upgrade touching on Flicker could definitely make me drop Yu.

[Dogmantra]

21 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

With Yan the possibility of ressurection and free fast are nice (though only happen up to once and twice a game respectively)

Only getting fast twice a game? Only if you haven't unlocked the Cosmic Brain level tech of Recalled Training Every Turn Yan Lo 8)

(I still don't take his conflux tho because I think it kinda sucks)

[anencephalous]

I take Yu over the SE at least half the time. Occasionally I take neither in minion heavy crews where Toshiro does the same thing. But if I don't have a key support giving at least one model fast and a push in a turn, I might as well play another faction. Pound for pound our models tend to be a little lacklustre, they are balanced by our force multipliers like the big three supports and recalled training. When playing new players with TT I skip supports and recalled, and I don't need to work hard to be uncompetitive.

[Richard matthews]

the emissary is non leader he cant make any of them fast?

[Nikodemus]

11 minutes ago, Richard matthews said:

the emissary is non leader he cant make any of them fast?

I'm not sure who you're replying to specifically, but Chiaki can transfer her conditions to nearby Ancestors (=Yan Lo!). So Emissary gives Fast to Chiaki, who then passes it over to Yan Lo.

[Dogmantra]

I thought Tokapondora was referring to the Yan Lo's emissary conflux where it gets fast when a nearby friendly attaches an upgrade, and that's what I was talking about.

[Richard matthews]

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

I'm not sure who you're replying to specifically, but Chiaki can transfer her conditions to nearby Ancestors (=Yan Lo!). So Emissary gives Fast to Chiaki, who then passes it over to Yan Lo.

I was not aware of this I was talking about fast brewmaster. I am fairly new to TT so is this Yu that can do this

 

14 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

or someone who can drag himself around the battlefield doling out extra poison, putting up bubbles left and right and making the Brewmaster fast

 

[Tokapondora]

Yeah, a big reason why I like Yu so much over the Emissary is because Yu can give his masters fast. 

[SinJ]

I find it very difficult to build lists without the Shadow Emissary. Master dependant but it is an auto-take for Shenlong, McCabe, and Lynch IMO. Unless you build your list poorly ala not taking at least one Enforcer with an upgrade the Emissary always has a job to do. On the base card itself you get focused plus 2 for any card on activation which you will want for fishing for a mask to trigger word of the emissary to do attack again. I've found he generally gets one very effective attack in per turn and being a Casting action without a projectile is huge!

I've been focusing heavily on control Misaki of recent with the Emissary and it really is a beautiful thing. His zero to push 4" can extend his threat to 16" and in general allow for scheming when an opponent attempts to tarpit. The additional AP for killing a model within 8 is just icing on the cake. I also regularly use the Emissary for Death Contract because your opponent will want him dead ASAP.

[anencephalous]

For me the main decision is which faction I face, and what schemes are in the pool. The push off wandering river wins some games by itself, so that makes it worth the extra point. If I just need something big to go faster, the the extra damage off the SE makes it the better pick.

[Clockwork_Fish]

You're all forgetting the most important consideration; it's the biggest, most awkwardly posed emissary in the game and can be a pain in the neck to transport.  And there are no first edition Avatar models to use in his stead.  I've known people who've left him at home rather than lug his fat dragon butt halfway across the province.

[spooky_squirrel]

4 hours ago, Clockwork_Fish said:

You're all forgetting the most important consideration; it's the biggest, most awkwardly posed emissary in the game and can be a pain in the neck to transport.  And there are no first edition Avatar models to use in his stead.  I've known people who've left him at home rather than lug his fat dragon butt halfway across the province.

This is why mine is still on my project bench. I've identified where to magnetize it to make it easier to transport (just like the Arcane Emissary), I just need to do the drilling and shaping to make the join as smooth as possible.

[Wake of Godzilla]

On 07/08/2017 at 5:44 PM, Clockwork_Fish said:

You're all forgetting the most important consideration; it's the biggest, most awkwardly posed emissary in the game and can be a pain in the neck to transport.  And there are no first edition Avatar models to use in his stead.  I've known people who've left him at home rather than lug his fat dragon butt halfway across the province.

I use Sonia's old avatar (without Sonia) for a proxy. 

I would have to agree that it seems like an auto-take for many lists, I've not played with Misaki or Brewmaster but all the other masters its a go to model. It's rare I build a crew without it. 

[Doomikov]

Neither Yu nor the Emissary or auto-takes for my lists. I know I'm in the minority here, but I grab Sun Qiang first (proxy at the moment) and then decide what master I am taking. That old man does more heavy lifting for me than any other model. I have had several games where he has scored almost every point from both schemes by himself. Having the ability to take out of activation interacts is very powerful.

[MrDeathTrout]

Sounds like I really need to start trying him out.  I always take Yu with Misaki and sometimes with Lynch.  I pretty much never use either Yu or SE with any other crew.

[Kogan Style]

It's a real nice decision we get to make in deciding whether Yu or the Emissary get in at the crew building stage. For me the Emissary is a great fit for Lynch and Mei while Yu is great for Brewmaster and Asami (the conflux might swing it The other way). I find Shen and Misaki crews benefit from either well enough. It's really about what the models in the crew are there to accomplish that helps decide which to include. 

What is a little sad is that you never see Yu in anything but Wandering River style, his card just seems geared towards it almost exclusively (focus for fast etc...)

I have made crews with neither and felt fine but in theoryfaux world it's hard not to lean on push+fast option!

[Clockwork_Fish]

It's certainly not like Ten Thunders masters were bad before the Emissary came out.

[MrDeathTrout]

5 hours ago, Kogan Style said:

I find Shen and Misaki crews benefit from either well enough. It's really about what the models in the crew are there to accomplish that helps decide which to include. 

 

I cannot imaging playing Misaki without Yu (actually I can since I did it before I discovered Yu) Yu stalking for Misaki, pushing her 10" and making her fast (5 attacks against her stalked target on +/+) is amazing.  I find I usually hit my target and kill it in 3-4 attacks, next target back out 4" and have 1-2 AP left to get so relative safety.  Then do it again next round.  Misaki just yo-yos out killing anything she gets near.  How does the Emissary complete with that?  FYI - I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be rude.

 

 

[Patzer]

8 hours ago, MrDeathTrout said:

 

I cannot imaging playing Misaki without Yu (actually I can since I did it before I discovered Yu) Yu stalking for Misaki, pushing her 10" and making her fast (5 attacks against her stalked target on +/+) is amazing.  I find I usually hit my target and kill it in 3-4 attacks, next target back out 4" and have 1-2 AP left to get so relative safety.  Then do it again next round.  Misaki just yo-yos out killing anything she gets near.  How does the Emissary complete with that?  FYI - I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be rude. 

I used to play that way earlier. To great effect at times. But I think its about wheter you want to build the crew around Misaki, who may get killed as early as turn 2, and a model which is basically a 11ss upgrade to her. There are plenty of things now which can limit Misaki's effectivness and thus limiting the whole crew a lot. The way I see it is that the emissary can do similar things to yu, and has a greater offensive output. The emissary's attack can hurt a lot, and its a ca which is nice against certain crews. Its Misaki-aura is huge and can at times generate more attacks, making it some what overlapping to yu, but generally on later turns instead of earlier. Its 0 with Misaki is a pseudo-nimble. And instead of making Misaki fast, it makes a secondary beater fast. Making the attack a bit more balanced. 

[SinJ]

I'm going to echo Patzer here regarding the Emissary. His zero from Conflux of Thunder is amazing. You can get a focused 2 attack on something 16" away for a discard which regularly drops 6 damage on something outside of impossible to wound. I play control Misaki and use her mainly to actively contest my opponent's forces so the additonal AP from the Emissary when I kill a model is very welcome indeed to go Defensive with Untouchable after pushing away and putting up Deadly Dance. If I am taking Misdirection the high masks go well with the Emissary's trigger to take additonal attacks and his Aspects usually complement my list. I value a one-two punch of Ohaguro Bettari to turn off enemy triggers which actually lets Misaki kill the targets she wants to as the Emissary gives Betty fast and a push for 1 AP without a flip or card! Sensei is also more expensive and sometimes card intensive while being almost a purely support piece albeit with the potential for hard denial of certain Schemes.