Stuffed Piglet makes our internal balance Worse

[spooky_squirrel]

12 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I dunno whether you are aware but PolishSausage is a highly accomplished and decorated tournament player who, for example, came in second in this year's Adepticon and is currently ranked number 11 in the US rankings. He probably knows a thing or two about list building  

I was not aware cool. That also means he's got a better idea of what has been working than others I've seen. Pardon me while I slurp up these shoelaces

In all seriousness though, I've noticed that here in the US there's a world of difference between the East and West coast regional metas. There's stuff that was dominating out here in the PacNW that doesn't even appear on the radar on the other side of the country, and stuff there that's been top tier that doesn't gain traction here. Many of the Gremlins players I've run into are either taking a goofball approach to the game deliberately (like I do) or are rather new and thus aren't entirely aware of what they have and what it does. The rest are trying to figure out how to take things that appear to work really well in other metas and apply them to the local metas, with mixed results. More cross-pollination might help with that disparity, but that requires time and other resources that might not be available.

I agree with @PolishSausage's sentiment that the game play seems a little too heavily focused on either alpha or first strike , which skews the game towards certain approaches to crews. If the strategies and schemes were less rewarding to hyper-aggression and mobility, it would probably help bring down the current value of masters like Sandeep and other models that ping high on the "why is this a thing" scale.
This skewing might be a result of trying to combine high activation counts with needing to play in a compressed time. Compressed time and the potential of not actually completing 3-4 turns, let alone 5 definitely contributes to picking schemes that reward alpha striking. It solves two problems at the same time: reducing total number of activations on the table and completing a scheme or strategy point. I've been frustrated in games where I needed to complete Turn 3 to actually score and time gets called before I can get the activations in to recover evidence or drop the last Search marker around the ruins, especially in games against an opponent with ample activations. I know it inspires me to design crews with lethal and control options in mind.
The flip side of this is that there are some masters whose whole shtick is kill them all, kill them now, and.. oh, yeah, pick up that stuff on the way back, which makes those masters weaker in a scheme heavy pool that requires consistently doing things to complete non-lethal schemes and a liability in schemes that punish you for being good at killing, and their signature crews more of a liability when it comes to schemes in which you need to leave models alive. It's a pretty complicated balancing act.

[lame0]

3 hours ago, MinionJack said:

Yeah . . . would you have been ok with 2 stuffed piglets for 5SS?

 

Yes actually it would have been way better. Make it an ability "cheaper in twos" for every two stuffed piglets hired one stone is added to the hiring pool. Saving 1-2 stones means a ton and it means that new activation break points would be available (8ss = two stuffed + a bayou for 3 activations or 10ss= 4 stuffed etc). Lastly it would of made the pigapult still somewhat relevant for 13ss you get two ammo and it's other uses. At least it would of looked like wyrd wanted them to seem worth while.

At the current cost of 3 per stuffed ashes and dust makes the same number or more activations and can drop schemes fight etc.

On a side note I was thinking they could of made them 3 ss and gave them an ability

"cache back" at the beginning of the game gets one stone added to the masters cache up to a total cache Max of 7 for each stuffed piglet hired.

This would of limited the effective number you hire to 3-4 (most of the time) and make them better with masters/henchmen that want a high cache. Also it would mean that it would reduce our activation control and hiring pool for taking stuffed but at least give us something in return.(decent for Ophelia Zipp etc.). It's also the consensus that stones hiring are typically more useful so it adds an extra dynamic

[Bazlord_Prime]

19 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I dunno whether you are aware but PolishSausage is a highly accomplished and decorated tournament player who, for example, came in second in this year's Adepticon and is currently ranked number 11 in the US rankings. He probably knows a thing or two about list building  

More proof that Gremlins are OP & dominating the rankings. When are people going to WAKE UP?!? 

[Je ne c'est LaCroix]

I'm somewhere around 584th in the UK rankings and I feel like 3SS for a small random pork grenade is a little steep.

My nine stuffed models will be joining my six rooster models and my one Lenny model in the spare carry-case of shame.

And all sixteen of them are now fated to forever remain half-painted, which is the saddest thing of all. 

[Ludvig]

If I ever felt like taking six of something in any list I would more or less count on it getting errata.

[PolishSausage]

Its not like wyrd is not encouraging us to spam minions (rare 6 stuff piglets, only come in box of 6)

[wizuriel]

1 hour ago, PolishSausage said:

Its not like wyrd is not encouraging us to spam minions (rare 6 stuff piglets, only come in box of 6)

A lot of models come 2 or 3 per pack. I can't think of many models (outside of summons) that people will hire 3+ of.

On the top of my head Guild Hounds, Marionettes, spiders and Bayou Gremlins (for Somer) are it

[Ludvig]

Most models come in boxes of more than you would be expected to actually put in a list. Stuffed are also summonable so the rare rating is probably related to that.

[Flinroz]

12 hours ago, Ludvig said:

If I ever felt like taking six of something in any list I would more or less count on it getting errata.

I'm looking at 6 Wrastlers with Mah 

 

7 models ignoring models and terrain while charging, at Ml8...

[spooky_squirrel]

25 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Most models come in boxes of more than you would be expected to actually put in a list. Stuffed are also summonable so the rare rating is probably related to that.

With many of those models that are in boxes of 3, you're probably only bringing 1-2. If a player hires all three, especially most the time, there's something that needs a good hard look (yeah, I'm talking about you, Oxfordian Mages). Things that can be summoned coming boxed with their rare limit is actually a pretty cool convenience feature, even if you wouldn't hire more than 2 of them to start.

5 hours ago, wizuriel said:

A lot of models come 2 or 3 per pack. I can't think of many models (outside of summons) that people will hire 3+ of.

On the top of my head Guild Hounds, Marionettes, spiders and Bayou Gremlins (for Somer) are it

I cannot say much about the other three, but if I have 3+ Steam Arachnids on the table, it's because I'm playing Ramos and not a single one was hired. I've had as many as 8-9 on the board with him at once, but that was an unusual circumstance. Other crews might hire 1-2 in, or I might summon them in if I hired the Mechanical Rider, but I'm not hiring more than that 1-2.

[Ludvig]

6 hours ago, Flinroz said:

I'm looking at 6 Wrastlers with Mah 

 

7 models ignoring models and terrain while charging, at Ml8...

Beware the errata (in spooky voice).

[WWHSD]

On 8/4/2017 at 5:23 PM, spooky_squirrel said:

With many of those models that are in boxes of 3, you're probably only bringing 1-2. If a player hires all three, especially most the time, there's something that needs a good hard look (yeah, I'm talking about you, Oxfordian Mages).

Between their + for each nearby Academic, the way their Ward upgrades stack for anyone with Warding Rune, and the 3 stone discount you get when you take the third Mage, it sure seems like Wyrd's intention is that they are taken as a trio more often then not. 

[Flinroz]

Played Wong today, hired 2 at 3ss. One of them held a flank on his own for 3 turns, the other killed a void wretch.

I didn't use them a ton before, but wanted to hire them to test the change. Seems to me they are worth 3ss.

[EpicWaffle]

I never used stuffed so hard, they simply filled empty spaces in crews for me, and the change doesn't affect me too much. I think that we tend to get used to a certain play style that seems strong and have hard times getting things back after a change (and it's true, we get hit hard, and our internal balance is awful, without a sign of getting better imo).

My opinion on Stuffed is that they're good, but not essential, and they can trick you into thinking you need a lot of them but in reality you're hiring a bunch of annoying peons. Sure they do work well in a lot of games, but even when i tried to hire 6 of them (it was just once, forgive me) they didn't do much, they're just annoying. As a matter of facts they won't win you a game because they have no interaction in any scheme, aside from denying some for the opponent. In my opinion, the problem was that they got spammed way too hard, stucking players into picking from 3 to 6 in any list, not their cost. So making them as the skeeters (which can be deployed only in pairs) would had been much better. Now, I would bring stuffed only with Wong (I was bringing just two of those guys and I often use a taxidermist so it's not a big deal), if I'm planing on using a pigapult (again, with Somer saving 3 ss, since I used to bring three of those, its easy) or if there is head hunter, since they don't count toward it, other whise why would I want them over a Bayou that can score points and annoy annoy as well? 

I've seen a list idea on this post (sorry I can't recall who wrote it otherwise I would tag him) where you use a taxidermist to get a Stuffed out of a Bayou but why would you want that? The value of bayous is so high, I would never trade one for the other. I'm saying this in merit of my experiences with gremlins, but I really can't find a reason for it. 

Im not salty about it, since I never abused them (and as a result, it doesn't affect my play style) but I'm not too happy with the change, for how it was made. Now, we have another range of ss where one model is 90% of the time better than the other, instead of limiting an abused tactic.

[EpicWaffle]

On 3/8/2017 at 1:02 AM, PolishSausage said:

My go to list now is:

Somer

-Pull my finger/Dirty Cheater

Skeeter x2

Iron Skeeter x2

Franc

Raph

Pere

Bayou Gremlin x4

 

Most likely will stay this way for all of 2018 as well

Cool list, how do you find yourself doing with Raphael and franc without any upgrade?  Do you keep them alive with skeeters mask trigger?

[Math Mathonwy]

50 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

they have no interaction in any scheme, aside from denying some for the opponent.

They can kill the opponent's sucker and score for their FFM!

...

 

50 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

I've seen a list idea on this post (sorry I can't recall who wrote it otherwise I would tag him) where you use a taxidermist to get a Stuffed out of a Bayou but why would you want that? The value of bayous is so high, I would never trade one for the other. I'm saying this in merit of my experiences with gremlins, but I really can't find a reason for it.

I posted about a Skeeter or Somer killing a Bayou Gremlin into a Skeeter or Piglet and then using the resulting Corpse for a Stuffed Piglet. Which I think is a valid change (though card intensive).

[EpicWaffle]

49 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

 

I posted about a Skeeter or Somer killing a Bayou Gremlin into a Skeeter or Piglet and then using the resulting Corpse for a Stuffed Piglet. Which I think is a valid change (though card intensive).

No it wasn't this complicated, it was more straight forward, i ll take the time later to search it, and this is more "worth" for me, since a skeeter is much better than a stuffed (and you get one any way), but it's really intensive on resources and seems quite situational (even tho you might get some back out of it). Not a bad strategy, but with my luck, I'm already fine if I end up with 6 bayous turn one  

[lame0]

1 hour ago, EpicWaffle said:

No it wasn't this complicated, it was more straight forward, i ll take the time later to search it, and this is more "worth" for me, since a skeeter is much better than a stuffed (and you get one any way), but it's really intensive on resources and seems quite situational (even tho you might get some back out of it). Not a bad strategy, but with my luck, I'm already fine if I end up with 6 bayous turn one  

Well I mean I like summoning with somer three times on two bayou so that one of the summoned ones turns to a corpse and then a taxidermist makes a stuffed off of it turn one. (Killing the bayou summoning means I draw two cards so it becomes even easier  to do and if I can't summon the third bayou to kill the bayou then that means whether or not I brought the extra bayou I still would of only got two summons) I get 9 stones summoned turn one for an 8 stone investment (because usually I take a Taxidermist and he can only summon turn 2-3 onward). When I can get 9 free stones for a zero action, and master ap that I normally would have a hard time using effectively turn one it seems worth. 

If you have do over and a stone it gives you 10 cards and a 95.31% chance for a mask and the chance of two 8 or higher cards under that scenario is 98.87% (two being the minimum you need to usually get three summons). The odds of three 8+ is 93.48%. also the 8+ odds don't even include somers initial flip on the summon or the potential bayou two card. I don't include the stone or do over in the cost because half the time neither is needed for the turn to work.(and I would almost always want do over anyway).

With all that said I just don't see why I would take a non summoning list with somer. For 8-9 stones ( if you include do over into the cost) you get 5 activations and 4 scheme runners that all are a pain in the but (bayous give you two cards when they die + a corpse counter for the taxidermist to summon etc.). Also when you do this strategy if you want to heal the bayous (usually you do) you can take a slop hauler if you prefer the additional easier healing for somer and the reckless crew.(since you only have 4 bayous and one stuffed who comes in with no wounds).

Anyways im not saying the non summoning list won't work it just feels like the summoning one brings more stuff with it.

Ex:

50 SS Gremlins Crew
Somer Teeth Jones + 4 Pool
 - Family Tree 
 - Do Over 
Skeeter 
Francois LaCroix
 - Stilts 
Gremlin Taxidermist 
 - Dirty Cheater 
Burt Jebsen 
 - Dirty Cheater 
Slop Hauler 
Lightning Bug 
Lightning Bug 
Bayou Gremlin 
Bayou Gremlin 

Or something more similar to the original:

50 SS Gremlins Crew
Somer Teeth Jones + 4 Pool
 - Family Tree 
 - Do Over 
Skeeter 
Francois LaCroix 
Gremlin Taxidermist 
 - Dirty Cheater 
Raphael LaCroix 
Iron Skeeter 
Pere Ravage 
Slop Hauler 
Bayou Gremlin 
Bayou Gremlin 

(I like that Franc or pere can take a ride from the skeeter which is pretty scary for the opponent playing against 13 activations turn one)

[EpicWaffle]

You got me wrong @lame0, my point was that I don't find it being worth focusing on sacrificing a Bayou to get some stuffed. As a matter of facts, I'm a big advocate for both playstyles since both are really effective, but I generally prefer to summon. Only thing, I never summon advise that turn 1 (unless I really need it or Somer doesn't have nothing else to do).

if you were to bring 3 Bayou from the beginning you would find yourself having 6 bayous fully healed (with the help of a bug or 2 slop), enough number to outnumber any crew, scheming potential for days and Somer up ahead if you play your cards right (using his squeal properly in other words)  ready to spend his ap. With your method, you achieve less models (4 bayous since you kill one to do the summoning) and a stuffed piglet, putting you  behind in model counts (and a little in versatility since bayous potential through the game is greater, scheme/strategy-wise) but ahead  on cards, which you could had saw anyway if you spent a soulstone/took "do over"/ hired Merris and used gremlin cunning.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, and if it's working for you, it's fine like this, I'm not so good to say what's good or bad to a player who sure seems to have a good grasp about the game (and this is a cool idea to bring a bunch of stuffed out without risking your taxidermist), I'm just saying that it's sort of a "gimmicky" (allow me the term, I couldn't find a better word  ) that in the end won't give you much more than you would get from simply bringing 3 bayous (and your investment for the whole mechanism is 15ss, which is 2 ss less than having family tree+3 bayous+ merris, and merris isn't a must). 

But I don't wanna side track too much away from the post, if you want we can discuss this via pm, my point was just that I value more bayous over stuffed, and now that they're on the same price, it will be hard to chose one over the other. Sorry for having explained poorly my point in the previou post  

[lame0]

On 8/8/2017 at 0:33 PM, EpicWaffle said:

You got me wrong @lame0, my point was that I don't find it being worth focusing on sacrificing a Bayou to get some stuffed. As a matter of facts, I'm a big advocate for both playstyles since both are really effective, but I generally prefer to summon. Only thing, I never summon advise that turn 1 (unless I really need it or Somer doesn't have nothing else to do).

if you were to bring 3 Bayou from the beginning you would find yourself having 6 bayous fully healed (with the help of a bug or 2 slop), enough number to outnumber any crew, scheming potential for days and Somer up ahead if you play your cards right (using his squeal properly in other words)  ready to spend his ap. With your method, you achieve less models (4 bayous since you kill one to do the summoning) and a stuffed piglet, putting you  behind in model counts (and a little in versatility since bayous potential through the game is greater, scheme/strategy-wise) but ahead  on cards, which you could had saw anyway if you spent a soulstone/took "do over"/ hired Merris and used gremlin cunning.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, and if it's working for you, it's fine like this, I'm not so good to say what's good or bad to a player who sure seems to have a good grasp about the game (and this is a cool idea to bring a bunch of stuffed out without risking your taxidermist), I'm just saying that it's sort of a "gimmicky" (allow me the term, I couldn't find a better word  ) that in the end won't give you much more than you would get from simply bringing 3 bayous (and your investment for the whole mechanism is 15ss, which is 2 ss less than having family tree+3 bayous+ merris, and merris isn't a must). 

But I don't wanna side track too much away from the post, if you want we can discuss this via pm, my point was just that I value more bayous over stuffed, and now that they're on the same price, it will be hard to chose one over the other. Sorry for having explained poorly my point in the previou post  

Ohh yeah agreed both ways are valid the main reason I like it with the Taxidermist route is that it more or less saves 3 stones off the cost of my summoning for a very similar result.(lose two bayous so that I get a stuffed and three stones of flexibility allowing for an extra skeeter or upgrading a low ss model to a mid level one etc).

Regardless I do wish we had more model selection since every Cuddle thus far has either totally removed or mostly removed the models from the competitive equation.

I do think zoraida did get a bit better compared to our other masters due to the stuffed piglet Cuddle. 

Something along the lines of:

50 SS Gremlins Crew
Zoraida + 5 Pool
 - Tarot Reading 
Francois LaCroix 
 - Stilts 
Sparks 
Raphael LaCroix 
 - Dirty Cheater 
Iron Skeeter 
Pere Ravage 
Nurse 
Will O' The Wisp 
Will O' The Wisp 

This list uses the Hem for positive conditions. Summon a voodoo turn one Hem Raphael / Franc / Pere and get everyone in position. Then turn two you can fast the voodoo with Sparks then focus three times with it. This gives your target 4 ap and three focus which on Raphael/ Franc / Pere is nuts. Also if another voodoo is summoned later in the turn then it can target an enemy to be paralyzed by the nurse. In addition you have zoraida obeying, moving the Hem target and doing good stuff in general. Also the wisps are pretty good for the 4 ss cost now that they aren't competing with 2 ss stuffed. The iron skeeter is there for the potential to send Franc or pere deep and keep the enemy on their toes or do a double pronged attack with the Hem focus & fast target and a second beater with 4 ap. McTavish seemed like a good choice too but I had a hard time fitting him in (maybe for a nurse/pere + wisp and stilts I dunno seems rough).

I dunno it at least seems like it be fun.

Edit: It is to bad that hem only works for conditions on enemy models. :(. Shame on me that I didn't look at the effect carefully. I can now say I think shes bad, though changing the enemy voodoo doll to voodoo doll would be cool and make for interesting play.....see above lol.

[Dogmantra]

Sewn Fate only transfers conditions to enemy models, so no can do on the focus, but hemming a friendly turn 1 for the interact to push and iirc  to duels involving a hem target for obeys seems like a nice plan.

[lame0]

4 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Sewn Fate only transfers conditions to enemy models, so no can do on the focus, but hemming a friendly turn 1 for the interact to push and iirc  to duels involving a hem target for obeys seems like a nice plan.

yeah...its sad that this doesn't work. I never used her....and now I don't plan on using her as is. Better I figured it out now before I tried to field the list lol. 

I would love if they changed hem to be able to affect friendly models. It would breath some new play out of her

[Flinroz]

7 minutes ago, lame0 said:

yeah...its sad that this doesn't work. I never used her....and now I don't plan on using her as is. Better I figured it out now before I tried to field the list lol. 

I would love if they changed hem to be able to affect friendly models. It would breath some new play out of her

As Zoraida is my favorite master, I'd be concerned if they made that change. There would be some truly broken things you could do with this.

Back when I first started playing her I made the same mistake. I was working on giving stuffed piglets explosive demise 4 with poorly handled explosives. Then launch both out of a pigapault and use the 3rd AP to kill the doll. 4+4+(1-4) damage without the enemy even getting to defend.

Thankfully someone stopped me for the good of humanity =P