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Stuffed Piglet makes our internal balance Worse


lame0

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14 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Lets revisit this doom and gloom thread after GenCon ( ~2 weeks)

Agree.... also, maybe wait until the turn of the year.  I'd like to see how Gremlin Criers work in the new gaining grounds.

 

This SS cost increase doesn't break any of the competitive lists that I've seen or play.  But, I see where and why some people are frustrated & also understand that meta's are different. 

 

Lastly, thank you Wyrd for letting Burt slippery the Gremlin rage onto a stuffed piglet!!!!

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To be fair, this fix seems like it was planned for quite sometime now. 

 

Remember the open playtest feedback about the fiying piglet? The main complaint about it was its price vs the stuffed piglets.

 

I believe this is probably one of the main reasons this was the fix for the stuffed.

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1 minute ago, MinionJack said:

That being said, I think flying piglets might be a benefactor of this change . . . maybe . . . possibly . . . 

How? This change doesn't affect Summoning and the Flying versions are still over costed for hiring. The sole defense of the Flying version was that they are nice as Summons in some situations.

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23 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

How? This change doesn't affect Summoning and the Flying versions are still over costed for hiring. The sole defense of the Flying version was that they are nice as Summons in some situations.

We will have two nice summons in some situations now ;)

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5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I dunno whether you are aware but PolishSausage is a highly accomplished and decorated tournament player who, for example, came in second in this year's Adepticon and is currently ranked number 11 in the US rankings. He probably knows a thing or two about list building ;) 

Yeah it seems that many tourny players use more or less the same list and vary it up a little depending on schemes (Trixie + frank for fingers + lighting bug or something). At least from Alex's videos he represents that usually he takes pretty similar lists. (His tournament like a month ago when he took only Wong seems to show he only changed around a model or two per game as well.) 

I did also just watch his video last night on the stuffed piglets and he seems to share a similar point of view about Wong taking the hardest hit and that somer stayed just as strong 49/50 games (he didn't like the pigapult anymore anyway).

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I dont get the non-summoning Somer. Well.. i get it yet its hard for me to justify. If you want to take advantage of him turn 1 (by shooting him to push him up the board) then you already have the masks up and at that point is the turn 1 shooting better then 3 bayous? So at the end of turn 1, i have 3 more models, somer is still up and pushed, and maybe he didnt shoot turn 1.

If you do go alpha strike elite list (which i think is risky to say the least, good vs weak players, risky vs better ones). Then the biggest reason for Somer over say Wong/Zipp would be? the suits? With Wong you get the same style of list (albeit a different attack action on you master), but 3 glowy/reckless models. Zipp is just a good annoying master, and wave 5 ophelia will hopefully help her.

I guess in a double iron skeeter giving out tomes is nice especially if u can keep it in range of pere, but even then feels so all in vs strong players.

 

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1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

How? This change doesn't affect Summoning and the Flying versions are still over costed for hiring. The sole defense of the Flying version was that they are nice as Summons in some situations.

Well, the fliying piglets didn't get any better per se, they just look less worse because the most common comparison was stuffed were just cheaper and a better choice most of the time. 

Now, if you are even pondering hiring a stuffed, you will also ponder the flying piglets. To be totally honest, although I feel 3SS is more than I'm willing to pay for a stuffed, the fact is that stuffed were present in almost all the gremlin lists. And Wyrd is targetting all the auto includes in the game. So it was a matter of time. At the moment, sure, gremlins are in a worse situation. But I'm a generally positive person and I am hopeful it changes with the upcoming GG2018 and master upgrades, since the new models did not impress me much besides having great sculpts :P

 

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11 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Well, the fliying piglets didn't get any better per se, they just look less worse because the most common comparison was stuffed were just cheaper and a better choice most of the time. 

Now, if you are even pondering hiring a stuffed, you will also ponder the flying piglets. To be totally honest, although I feel 3SS is more than I'm willing to pay for a stuffed, the fact is that stuffed were present in almost all the gremlin lists. And Wyrd is targetting all the auto includes in the game. So it was a matter of time. At the moment, sure, gremlins are in a worse situation. But I'm a generally positive person and I am hopeful it changes with the upcoming GG2018 and master upgrades, since the new models did not impress me much besides having great sculpts :P

I can sortakinda see that but Stuffeds and Flyings don't have all that much in common other than that both are Undead and Taxidermist can summon both. They have very different uses. I think that the regular Piglet is much closer to the flying version. And probably superior.

That said, Wyrd can change things between the last beta and release so one shouldn't take any of this as gospel before the book hits.

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Just now, Math Mathonwy said:

I can sortakinda see that but Stuffeds and Flyings don't have all that much in common other than that both are Undead and Taxidermist can summon both. They have very different uses. I think that the regular Piglet is much closer to the flying version. And probably superior.

Oh I definitely agree with you there! 

What I am trying to say here is that this might be the first step towards a bigger plan to fix our internal balance. It might not go the way we would like though 

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2 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Oh I definitely agree with you there! 

What I am trying to say here is that this might be the first step towards a bigger plan to fix our internal balance. It might not go the way we would like though 

If it goes by weakening all of our used models it will completely devastate Gremlins.

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43 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

If it goes by weakening all of our used models it will completely devastate Gremlins.

I love what Alex said in his video that he feels it's weird that other factions get a cuddle and their models are still very viable but you look at Gremlins and all you see is destruction. 

Lenny- not used (and he was borderline in the first place)

Rooster ridder's - not used

Stuffed piglets - won't be used outside of being summoned.

On the other hand Wind gamin and the mech rider are still really good. 

Lol wind gamin got a good replacement for the burry and stuffed got a 50% cost increase and no buff at all....

I just hate that they are always heavy handed with Gremlins and don't do something to help us in return (make a few of our bad units better our internal balance sucks..........) 

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6 minutes ago, lame0 said:

Lenny- not used (and he was borderline in the first place)

Rooster ridder's - not used

Stuffed piglets - won't be used outside of being summoned.

I disagree.  Lenny is still awesome in a Som'er list.  The synergy between Trixie, Burt, and Lenny is one of the best in the game.

Rooster Riders: I miss those guys

Stuffed Piglets: This is initial rage . . . the cuddle is not as bad as people are going with.

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For me the "non summoning somer" is I don't have the 9's to use turn one because of the extended alpha strike.

This game is all about alpha strikes these days for most part, I wish GG2018 was all scheme based ( take out eliminate,frame,quick,hunting)

 

Wiping your opponents models off the table is equivalent to counter scheming anyway, you should not be rewarded for it as well.

( I love headhunter as it punishes players for gun-lining without actual plan to pick up the heads)

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38 minutes ago, MinionJack said:

I disagree.  Lenny is still awesome in a Som'er list.  The synergy between Trixie, Burt, and Lenny is one of the best in the game.

Rooster Riders: I miss those guys

Stuffed Piglets: This is initial rage . . . the cuddle is not as bad as people are going with.

What is some awesome about Lenny is Somer's list? 1 damage save on each summoning when you have Slop Hauler or Bug to heal models around anyway? Spending 9SS for a model just to do this (plus occasional Pig summon) is a big pricey I think...

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8 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

( I love headhunter as it punishes players for gun-lining without actual plan to pick up the heads)

(player 1) Hey! I shot your guy to death! Buhahahhahaha!

(player 2) Thank you. Let me pick my head marker (sound of scoring VP in the background)

(player 1) Grrrrrr......

:)

 

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25 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

What is some awesome about Lenny is Somer's list? 1 damage save on each summoning when you have Slop Hauler or Bug to heal models around anyway? Spending 9SS for a model just to do this (plus occasional Pig summon) is a big pricey I think...

Family Tree damage can't be reduced. I think it's more along the lines of damage reduction for Drunk & Reckless and Dumb Luck, with Toss that allows him to chuck newly summoned Bayou Gremlins into better position for next turn (as well as guaranteeing Dumb Luck if Som'er is using Do It Like Dis for masks to summon with).

25 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

(player 1) Hey! I shot your guy to death! Buhahahhahaha!

(player 2) Thank you. Let me pick my head marker (sound of scoring VP in the background)

(player 1) Grrrrrr......

:)

 

Oh goodness, this reminds me of when I first played using the GG2015 strats. We had both misread Headhunter and thought that the heads were placed by the owner of the model (like how corpses/scrap are). It was silly and rewarded you for losing models, but I do kind of miss how the best tactic was to be as annoying as possible to bait your opponent into killing your model and giving you a head.

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3 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Oh goodness, this reminds me of when I first played using the GG2015 strats. We had both misread Headhunter and thought that the heads were placed by the owner of the model (like how corpses/scrap are). It was silly and rewarded you for losing models, but I do kind of miss how the best tactic was to be as annoying as possible to bait your opponent into killing your model and giving you a head.

That happened to me actually. Was playing a Lucius list and I ended up winning by using Lucius to gum up a narrow alley with fodd.....Guild Guard that my opponent kept killing trying to get past them. Meanwhile Lucius would walk and pick up the brave recruits head while intimidating another Guard to take his place in the alley.  

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39 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

What is some awesome about Lenny is Somer's list? 1 damage save on each summoning when you have Slop Hauler or Bug to heal models around anyway? Spending 9SS for a model just to do this (plus occasional Pig summon) is a big pricey I think...

So, the Lenny is combo that I use.

 

Turn one (if you don't summon 2 piglets due to lack of cards): Lenny throws Burt and Trixibelle 10" forward.  Trixibelle goes reckless, walks, lures Lenny twice. (Note: This movement is better than their individual walk). Burt sets up for turn 2.

Turn 2: Trixibelle goes reckless and charges something and pulls in Lenny and Burt with the mask trigger.  Hits the target two more time with the Ram trigger (from Lenny) and with Burt hitting as well (with an extra Crit strike from Lenny).  Target(s) dead.  Lenny charges something, puts a hurt on it.  Burt goes reckless, charges and kills whatever Lenny is 3" nearby.

Repeat turns 3-5.

 

 

The reason this is awesome in a Som'er list is that Som'er and Bayou friends are completely independent of this process and can do their own thing.

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2 hours ago, MinionJack said:

I disagree.  Lenny is still awesome in a Som'er list.  The synergy between Trixie, Burt, and Lenny is one of the best in the game.

Rooster Riders: I miss those guys

Stuffed Piglets: This is initial rage . . . the cuddle is not as bad as people are going with.

Tbh I don't see the value of Lenny with somer since we have do it like this on skeeters + somer. The damage reduction bubble is cool but I don't think he's worth 9 stones (I guess in somer Lenny's summoning is better but it's far to redundant and doesn't provide much that somer doesn't already do). I guess there is a small case for him with somer but Ophelia and other masters can't use him well and he eats like 20% of your stones. Lastly if Trixie + Burt + Lenny wasn't amazing having 24-27 stones tied up (~50% of a list) in it wouldn't make any sense. (I think I'd rather Burt with dc + Trixie + skeeter + taxidermist with dc for similar effect that can be played without needing to use Trixie for movement but obviously I can see the value.)

The cuddle on stuffed is pretty bad because there was no way they were 50% under cost for exactly what they were. There is almost no time I would want a stuffed piglet over a bayou or the lucky effigy (lucky has armor def 6 hard to kill and helps heal our master and has a decent damage spread) that can scheme and such. Compare the stuffed piglet to a will o the wisp. How are they the same price point.

Either way what's done is done but I hope they are more careful and giving with errata in the future.

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1 hour ago, MinionJack said:

So, the Lenny is combo that I use.

 

Turn one (if you don't summon 2 piglets due to lack of cards): Lenny throws Burt and Trixibelle 10" forward.  Trixibelle goes reckless, walks, lures Lenny twice. (Note: This movement is better than their individual walk). Burt sets up for turn 2.

Turn 2: Trixibelle goes reckless and charges something and pulls in Lenny and Burt with the mask trigger.  Hits the target two more time with the Ram trigger (from Lenny) and with Burt hitting as well (with an extra Crit strike from Lenny).  Target(s) dead.  Lenny charges something, puts a hurt on it.  Burt goes reckless, charges and kills whatever Lenny is 3" nearby.

Repeat turns 3-5.

 

 

The reason this is awesome in a Som'er list is that Som'er and Bayou friends are completely independent of this process and can do their own thing.

I like it:D

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