July 2017 Errata

[yool1981]

14 hours ago, Aaron said:

It is time for the summer edition of our twice-a-year errata! Unlike the winter errata, which looks at overall game health and improvements, the summer errata is aimed at only addressing significant problem areas within the game. We only looked at some of the most outstanding game issues that have persisted for some time in this errata.

Awesome job ! The main meta issues that were complained about are addressed. It was clear from the start the summer errata was for emergency issues.

I find it interesting to see that Gremlins complain the loudest while the Arcanists are the most cuddled...

I really like the idea that Wyrd defends a non-spam version of the game. This keeps the lists diverse and interesting.

The only thing that was missing was the Nihilist issue but addressing it in the new GG is probably more elegant.

I suppose winter errata may address a bit some of the TT models if there is a feedback regarding imbalance but these are not as blattant as the ones addressed in the present errata.

Thanks again for taking care of the game balance.

[Math Mathonwy]

19 minutes ago, trikk said:

Well if they were rare 4 the models would be legally unplayable and the issue wouldn't be resolved.

 

While I understand the arguments of Gremlin players I don't think I saw any proposition other than "lets swap one 7 SS model for taxidermist" which doesn't change the cheap activation aspect of Stuffes Piglets.

There was one idea about them activating last which I kimd of like but I don't lnow if it wouldn't turn them into bayous too.

Must activate last (maybe only on the first turn?) and allowing the opponent to pass after the activation of a Stuffed were suggested. But there's of course boundless other possibilities. Off the top of my head:

• Chain activation between Stuffeds that must be used (maybe combined with lowered stats if necessary)
• Make them count as Minions for enemy Schemes
• 3SS but improved somehow ("Draw a card when this model is Killed" so you can't use it when you pop them or give them Pig Charge or whatever)

And unlike some, I actually don't consider a 2SS useless model worthwhile as just an Activation buffer so there's got to be a statline that would make them appropriate for their cost.

[trikk]

Chain activation allows you to block 2 enemy beaters with no response. While it stops one issue it creates another.

Counting as minions on a model that can blow up on demand isn't really a big fix and doesn't solve the issue with activation control.

You honestly think that the card draw would suddenly make people take it? I mean the main complaint is the pigapult and it wouldn't change anything in that regard.

I like the idea of activating last but TBH I think it would probably make them be switched for bayous anyways.

 

 

I can agree that a useless 2SS activation isn't worth it but the general idea was that the part that caused issues was the activation spam, so thats probably why it has been addressed. IMHO in January if they would change the pigapult I think everything would go back to normal

[Math Mathonwy]

48 minutes ago, trikk said:

Chain activation allows you to block 2 enemy beaters with no response. While it stops one issue it creates another.

Lower their move, then.

Quote

Counting as minions on a model that can blow up on demand isn't really a big fix and doesn't solve the issue with activation control.

Unless you blow them up on the first turn it would still give a window of opportunity for things like Hunting Party and an average Henchman doesn't have much problems killing a Stuffed and netting that VP.

Quote

You honestly think that the card draw would suddenly make people take it? I mean the main complaint is the pigapult and it wouldn't change anything in that regard.

Up it to two cards then.

As for the Pigapult compaint - I don't rate Stuffeds as Pigapult ammo since Concussion is so horrid so it doesn't change anything for me in that regard.

Quote

I like the idea of activating last but TBH I think it would probably make them be switched for bayous anyways.

Not if it was on the first turn only.

But the point was that there's a multitude of possible solutions that could be adjusted until a combo was found that left Stuffeds as an option but didn't result in the out activation problems.

A 50% price increase is lazy and I don't see it as being good for the game. You said that Austringers and Papa Loco got hit but they didn't get a 50% price increase and are still used. This is different. Stuffeds won't be bought anymore and, as an added consequence, Somer's superiority got reinforced so tournaments will become more boring. He was already the best so n€rfing all the other Gremlin Masters seems like a really bad idea.

[Rosskov]

Rare 3 wouldn't solve the out activation problem. 

If you want stuffed pigs hired then they have to be better than they are. Not much better but a bit better. They will still appear in some lists regardless but they will see a lot less use than pre errata. 

They will also still appear as summoned models. 

I agree with the increase in cost as a short term fix. The reason I think it is only a short term fix is because of the impact it has on the pigapault. I think that can be cured by the creation of a one stone non-activating piece of ammunition/ upgrade that takes the place of stuffed pigs.

It also impacts on wong list building (where I think there is still a place for them) but less so. 

 

[daniello_s]

4 minutes ago, Rosskov said:

It also impacts on wong list building (where I think there is still a place for them) but less so. 

 

Nah. Recently I played 'dirty Wong crew' without Stuffed Piggies but with two Bayou Gremlins instead and it was working fine, better than with SP.

[Math Mathonwy]

15 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Nah. Recently I played 'dirty Wong crew' without Stuffed Piggies but with two Bayou Gremlins instead and it was working fine, better than with SP.

To be fair, if your sig stats are up to date, it looks like you haven't yet tried Wong with the Stuffeds, then?

[Angelshard]

If marionettes became peons, lost htk and their (0) in return for being 2ss instead of three I would take four of them every single game.

Also remember that wave 5 with master upgrades will have comming out soon, I wouldn't be surprised if ulix got an upgrade that lets him buy the first three stuffed for 2 or something like that

[daniello_s]

16 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

To be fair, if your sig stats are up to date, it looks like you haven't yet tried Wong with the Stuffeds, then?

My sig stats are so out of date I should really remove them to be honest

[Treehouse]

cant access the pdf right now and i am a bit confused. For practised production it says: prevents from placing near non-peon, so you cant place a marker anywhere near anything but a peon. Shouldnt it be: prevents you from placing near peon and insignificant?

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Treehouse said:

cant access the pdf right now and i am a bit confused. For practised production it says: prevents from placing near non-peon, so you cant place a marker anywhere near anything but a peon. Shouldnt it be: prevents you from placing near peon and insignificant?

Mistype by Aaron. The erratad card ability is as you would expect

Trap Doors: At the start of this model's Activation, it may place a friendly Scheme Marker anywhere within 3" of a friendly non-Peon, non-Insignificant model and at least 3" away from any enemy model. If this happens, at the end of the Turn, one friendly Scheme Marker in play must be discarded, if able.

[Linar]

12 hours ago, catbat07 said:

Gremlins are not a particularly powerful faction. While they can seem that way, they can be played around fairly easily. However, in GG17, they are incredibly strong. Take the average schemes pool: Claim Jump, Dig their graves/leave your mark + some other stuff. In any given game, there will be two schemes (on average) that benefit heavily off activation control. Gremlins, being a faction with plentiful activation control were able to score 8-10VP very easily, and have no problems with any of the strategies. This is exactly the same reason why Tara and Sandeep are broken right now. The meta has devolved into summoning and cheap activations. With the right scheme pool, it can be very difficult to win against one of these lists. 

Gremlins will be perfectly balanced in GG18 (hopefully). Also, Gremlins aren't the biggest problem. Hamelin, Collodi, Tara and Sandeep all desperately need fixing, mainly because they do gremlins better. Sort of.

 

Exactly what is so good about tara?

[daniello_s]

55 minutes ago, Linar said:

 

Exactly what is so good about tara?

She has a bullet-hole in the chest

[KrazyIvan]

Maybe Bayous should be 4SS, to maintain internal faction balance. Give them and Stuffed Piglets a little boost and differentiate their cost. Still doesn't solve the Pigapult issue though. I suppose that the Pigapult could hire Stuffed Piglets for a discount, or come with 1-2 for free.

Ultimately the core issue is still that 1, non totem, activation is considered to be worth more than 2SS by the designers, no matter how good or bad the model is.

[anumberone]

 I realize we're beating a dead horse at this point but figured as a gremlin player I should add my 2 cents as I feel we are under represented. There are just fewer players.

 I've played as Arcanists here and there (mostly Marcus, some Sandeep and Raspy) and PP plus raptors was indeed bs the way it was. Wind gamin as is was kind of nuts.They are still great. Mech rider was just fine as is. He was 12-13 stones so appropriately costed. Entourage changing was the cuddle riders needed. But he got a scheme buff so I think it evens out.

 Stuffed piglets probably won't be seen much outside of summoning. I'm mostly ok with that except it means the pigapault won't see much play either as is. 8 stones plus ammo was already kind of iffy. I'm sure many folks are happy for that side effect but my regular opponent has no problem cramming a Yasunori or Howard in it’s face turn 2 to begin with. Maybe January will see a discount for stuffed with the pigapault? 

 I'm really hoping January will be kind to the several awesome sculpts with sub par rules in gremlins. Bushwhackers, Moon Shinobi, Survivors, gators, boars. I'd love a reason to put them on the board and inject some variety into my stale lists. And I think most non gremlins players would like to see that variation too.

 

 

[trikk]

13 minutes ago, anumberone said:

 I realize we're beating a dead horse at this point but figured as a gremlin player I should add my 2 cents as I feel we are under represented. There are just fewer players.

 I've played as Arcanists here and there (mostly Marcus, some Sandeep and Raspy) and PP plus raptors was indeed bs the way it was. Wind gamin as is was kind of nuts.They are still great. Mech rider was just fine as is. He was 12-13 stones so appropriately costed. Entourage changing was the cuddle riders needed. But he got a scheme buff so I think it evens out.

 Stuffed piglets probably won't be seen much outside of summoning. I'm mostly ok with that except it means the pigapault won't see much play either as is. 8 stones plus ammo was already kind of iffy. I'm sure many folks are happy for that side effect but my regular opponent has no problem cramming a Yasunori or Howard in it’s face turn 2 to begin with. Maybe January will see a discount for stuffed with the pigapault? 

 I'm really hoping January will be kind to the several awesome sculpts with sub par rules in gremlins. Bushwhackers, Moon Shinobi, Survivors, gators, boars. I'd love a reason to put them on the board and inject some variety into my stale lists. And I think most non gremlins players would like to see that variation too.

I honestly think Bushwackers and Survivors are pretty good models but they suffer to the awful Gremlin internal balance. I hope if Pigapult gets a discount then the pig sacrifice is start of turn to prevent the activation spam that was just fixed.

[anumberone]

14 minutes ago, trikk said:

I honestly think Bushwackers and Survivors are pretty good models but they suffer to the awful Gremlin internal balance. I hope if Pigapult gets a discount then the pig sacrifice is start of turn to prevent the activation spam that was just fixed.

 I don't disagree with you about awful internal balance. 

 I think sacrifice at the beginning of turn would be fair, providing the discount was steeper.

[PolishSausage]

17 minutes ago, trikk said:

I honestly think Bushwackers and Survivors are pretty good models but they suffer to the awful Gremlin internal balance. I hope if Pigapult gets a discount then the pig sacrifice is start of turn to prevent the activation spam that was just fixed.

I don't disagree that gremlins have some of the worse internal balance, cuddling another option to the ground will skew our "tournament" list building even more.

They killed Lenny ( who was poopy to begin with ) ~ killing Ophelia in the process ( who was just OK before)

They reduced rooster riders, never even had the chance to play with them

Now killed pigs from list building, making melee crews have to move up into gunfire turn 1 (Mah and Ulix)

 

What I disagree the most off is your above post, Bushwackers and Survivors don't just need cost adjustment, they need 100% ability and rules rework.

They suffered from "new model syndrome" and were not tested properly. I have never EVER seen one of these models hit the table other than "I tested it once and sucked" feedback from others.

[trikk]

1 hour ago, PolishSausage said:

What I disagree the most off is your above post, Bushwackers and Survivors don't just need cost adjustment, they need 100% ability and rules rework.

They suffered from "new model syndrome" and were not tested properly. I have never EVER seen one of these models hit the table other than "I tested it once and sucked" feedback from others.

But is it that they are bad inside the vacuum or just that Gremlins have a lot of better stuff (so internal balance issues). If Bayous were tweaked to be 4SS models (and by Tweaked I don`t mean just an SS update, maybe give them 5 Wds for example) I think Survivors would go up in priority.

Bushwackers also seem decent, especially when compared to Riflemen. If you Focus+shoot with them its what 2/4/5 damage? They also have Df6 and make cover. While I understand why the Gremlin players don`t take them I also think that they are not poop but instead suffer from the Internal balance issues

[Myyrä]

10 minutes ago, trikk said:

Bushwackers also seem decent, especially when compared to Riflemen. If you Focus+shoot with them its what 2/4/5 damage? They also have Df6 and make cover. While I understand why the Gremlin players don`t take them I also think that they are not poop but instead suffer from the Internal balance issues

They also ignore cover, which is pretty big. They are basically more survivable Riflemen that don't need Dashel and cost 1ss extra.

[Omenbringer]

14 minutes ago, trikk said:

But is it that they are bad inside the vacuum or just that Gremlins have a lot of better stuff (so internal balance issues). If Bayous were tweaked to be 4SS models (and by Tweaked I don`t mean just an SS update, maybe give them 5 Wds for example) I think Survivors would go up in priority.

 

If Bayou Gremlin's go up to 4 SS they will need a lot more than just another Wound.

Yes, Gremlin's can do some amazing things when everything goes right. When it doesn't though (and this happens quite frequently, especially against people who know what they do) Gremlin's are easily taken apart. As a faction, Gremlins were designed and need many of the things that are being complained about. Gremlin's need synergy, easy access to healing, out activation, cheap models, and suits. They are not durable models and generally injure themselves (or each other) to do the "awesome" things that people complain about. Take the Bayou Gremlin for example. Gaining the extra Ap from Drunk and Reckless means they will not be able to again until they heal. This requires another model to do. That model isn't free so there is an additional opportunity cost to the ability. Hiring that additional model doesn't just mean not hiring something else it means the player has to protect it and huddle the Bayou Gremlin's near it to gain the healing access.

As a long time Gremlin player, I would say that Gremlin's as a whole are in a fairly good place. None of my player group really struggle against my gremlin crews, truthfully they have grown increasingly adept at "weathering the storm" and "tearing the onion apart." Now that isn't to say that some models couldn't use a bit of a rework only that it isn't usually the "factional" abilities (Reckless, healing, Dumb Luck, etc.) causing the issues. From what I have been reading in the last few months, the real issue is with Mercenary models that have access to them. There is a very easy fix to this, make the offending abilities only applicable when in Gremlin led crews. I have argued many times that models designed for a specific Master, crew, or faction should work best with that Master, crew, or faction, and not outside of it (The Rotten Belles' much-maligned Lure action is a perfect example of how this could be applied).

In short, without trying to sound condescending (but it inevitably will), many of the complaints about Gremlin's stem from the initial shock of what they can do when everything goes right. The more you play them the easier they are to defeat, this is why they haven't been consistent performers at the top of the competitive fields. Sure they may be (debatable) right now but that likely has more to do with the current crop of Strategies and Schemes (or the players piloting them) than the actual models/ abilities themselves.

[Math Mathonwy]

To expand on something from Omenbringer's post above - Gremlins are glass cannons. They are squishy but they do lots of damage. They also damage themselves and have ample healing. But all of this means that they are in very deep water when they are out activated. These days every faction can throw a massive superkiller into the other guy's deployment zone and a Yasunori makes short work of glass cannons. So if the Gremlins are out-activated and get hit massively first, they tend to crumple.

[catbat07]

As a player who has played against gremlins 2-5 times a week for the last six months, I can attest to Omenbringer's post being very true. While gremlins may seem like they can do everything, there are many ways to mess up their game and deny them some of those important resources that everyone complains about. Too much healing? Kill the healers. Francois making a mess of things? He'll be at low wounds for you to kill. Burt being annoying? break his face open with Nekima. Gremlins require everything to go right to do the amazing things that make them gremlins.

[spooky_squirrel]

10 hours ago, trikk said:

I honestly think Bushwackers and Survivors are pretty good models but they suffer to the awful Gremlin internal balance. I hope if Pigapult gets a discount then the pig sacrifice is start of turn to prevent the activation spam that was just fixed.

I'm inclined to agree with this. I also think that the Moon Shinobi are criminally underrated, but I also understand that internal balance comes into play.

9 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

What I disagree the most off is your above post, Bushwackers and Survivors don't just need cost adjustment, they need 100% ability and rules rework.

They suffered from "new model syndrome" and were not tested properly. I have never EVER seen one of these models hit the table other than "I tested it once and sucked" feedback from others.

Comments below

8 hours ago, trikk said:

But is it that they are bad inside the vacuum or just that Gremlins have a lot of better stuff (so internal balance issues). If Bayous were tweaked to be 4SS models (and by Tweaked I don`t mean just an SS update, maybe give them 5 Wds for example) I think Survivors would go up in priority.

Bushwackers also seem decent, especially when compared to Riflemen. If you Focus+shoot with them its what 2/4/5 damage? They also have Df6 and make cover. While I understand why the Gremlin players don`t take them I also think that they are not poop but instead suffer from the Internal balance issues

Internal balance plays a huge role. When I play Mei Feng as Arcanists in my local meta, some of the players are appalled at how much Rail Workers can do. One of the things that comes up is that other factions would kill to have a 5ss model that does that much--yet in the Arcanists they're often overlooked in favor of other models. "Why spend 5ss on a Rail Worker when you can get Oxfordian Mages at 5ss apiece when you hire three of them?" That's an internal balance (and/or perception) problem. Are Survivors Rail Workers? Not really. They bring something different to the table that doesn't play out quite the same way.. but they bring stuff to the table that is different, so it shouldn't play out the same way.

That's where newness and internal balance collide.
If you hand me a new model tomorrow and I'm practicing for a large event in a month, I'm going to look at the cost and role of that model first. Do I have something else doing the same role? What is the cost difference? If the new shiny is 5ss and I'm using 2-3ss activation filler and 4ss scheme runners and that 5ss model looks like a slightly upticked scheme runner, I'm going to have a hard time fitting it in on role and cost alone. I'll be trading down two activations for one to get another model that looks like it'll be doing a scheme running role. I'm not looking at the moderate/severe damage of 4/5 (because other models are doing the hitting), the armor, or the Hard to Kill (a 4 wound model with reckless will end up at Hard to Kill pretty quickly). If my priority is on activation count, that's a crummy trade by itself. If my priority is on hiring models for a specific role, it doesn't look like it's doing as much for its cost as some of the other choices I have.
It's easy to assume that it's because the model sucks or is unworkable. However, when it's being compared to 3ss significant models and 2ss models that can spike damage in a pulse with less effort while being activation fillers for activation/scheme roles, it's going to lose out. When it's being compared to someone who is 2ss more expensive but has the dumb luck trigger to not just spike damage, but double the spiked damage output, it's going to lose out on the assassin/beater role. When it's being compared to something with Regen, 8-10 wounds, and armor.. well.. Hard to Kill just doesn't seem as nice as something that can take two min 3 hits that ignore everything to the face and swing back. Utter lack of Squeal trigger and Bayou Two Card? Well, it doesn't have the same tricks as other scheme runners who might get hit, so it's definitely going to get hit.

After the newness wears off? If you hand me a new-to-me model tomorrow and I'm not in a focused mode (i.e. not practicing for a tournament or trying to tighten up my use of a specific master or crew mechanic) I will be looking at it with a different mindset. I will be looking for the things that add suits for triggers, the things that add positives (or put my opponent on negatives) and I will be looking for ways to get that moderate or severe damage off.. but that's because I did that for Rail Workers and realized that they punch well out of their weight class when properly supported and applied. Sure, the Porkchop's Walking Rage Machine aura and Reckless are going to tick two wounds off of a Survivor that goes reckless and charges from next to it.. but that's some furious fist slinging, especially if one or more of them ended up Fast. Two wounds and Hard to Kill still means that it's going to take two separate damage sources or someone like Joss smacking the Survivor to actually put it down.. that's a decent trade in effort. If Joss only removes a Survivor a turn, he's not removing Burt, Gracie, Francois, etc. etc. If I get that (0) with the reduced walk and no charge effect off? That's going to hamper more than just the model that the Survivor gets up in the face of. It ends up being something that must be answered once it gets into the fight. Who cares if a model has a Charge of 10" when it legitimately cannot charge.

I'll be frank, I would love it if the Survivors had the Foundry trait, and I have Rail Workers at the same stone cost. I wouldn't even have the benefit of things like Slop Haulers to keep them topped off. I'm coming from a different perspective though, as I'm used to paying for Arcanist models and trying to figure out which of all the tools I have access to that I should be bringing. I would be using them as a 5ss model to gum up the works of my opponent, forcing substantially more expensive and important models to deal with them and I'm used to paying 3ss for a peon or 4ss for a minion that does that kind of work when I'm not using Rail Workers in that role.
So from my perspective, rebalancing the cost of the Stuffed Piglets up to 3 and maybe taking a look at the Bayou Gremlins cost might help some of the other models see more play. That's the internal balance piece. Maybe if the swarm approach was only really useful under Somer and Ulix it would help?
I know that it's not that simple for Gremlins though, because the Gremlin cost balance across faction is very different than it is for Arcanists and 10T. With enemies that can threat pretty far, Gremlins currently count on their activations to keep their quality pieces in the game long enough to get stuff done.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well I tend to agree with your overall sentiment, the concept of internal faction costing goes out the window once you consider all the cross faction hiring that is now pretty much the norm.