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July 2017 Errata


Lucidicide

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1 minute ago, trikk said:

Swinecursed and Tavish are pretty good and don`t die to a stiff breeze. 

 

Leaving them at 2SS means you can spam them for activations.

Tavish is a henchman, and he's a merc. He's hardly a representative of the Gremlin faction.

And again, there are other ways to limit the activation spam. One was suggested above. I could have seen lowering their stats too: make them die to one good shot. It's not like they resuscitate after they die...

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4 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Burt is the only one that is above par, and yes, Francois is rough (but he also dies pretty quickly), the rest...I think they're pretty fair. Keep in mind we also lack the 10+ SS options that other factions have.

Outnumbering is the main Gremlin tactic, but the faction is also very fragile - something that opponent players tend to easily forget. Most Gremlin models die to a stiff breeze, you know? Or blow themselves up...

Sure, 2SS Stuffed were perhaps too good of a deal but again, I had the impression that it was just faster and less troublesome to raise their cost to 3SS than to try and tweak stats/abilities to make them balanced, while leaving them at 2SS.

The whole problem is the 2SS. 2SS models, of any strenght, will allow for huge leeway in crewbuilding. That is why they're so restricted. These were the only unrestricted 2 SS models in the game. And beyond that, they were very good for 2 SS. At 3 SS they may lag behind a bit because the Bayou Gremlins are even better, but they still have a place in specific lists. 

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2 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

The whole problem is the 2SS. 2SS models, of any strenght, will allow for huge leeway in crewbuilding. That is why they're so restricted. These were the only unrestricted 2 SS models in the game. And beyond that, they were very good for 2 SS. At 3 SS they may lag behind a bit because the Bayou Gremlins are even better, but they still have a place in specific lists. 

I would have preferred to leave them at 2SS and them being "less good". Geez, make them Df1, they're undead pigs after all...

Again, I'm telling you that, as a Gremlin player, I now don't see their use in most of my lists. Then, I don't go around telling players of other faction what models I think are good for their faction...I trust they know their faction best.

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1 hour ago, Gnomezilla said:

I think you're both referring to idiots like me who don't play very well but keep showing up at tournaments and getting added to rankings sites regardless.

No! Making up those Rankings, there's players who show up once - or just play a faction once - then don't come back. That's the issue with including them in the rankings - they create a huge tail in the statistics, so when they're counted for establishing an average they count just as much as anyone who regularly plays, but their scores are negligible (usually 5.00).

People who SUCK (like me!) simply just exist. The average ranking of the Gremlin faction doesn't change much whether you just take into account the Top 5 or Top 10 - they're just a middling faction - no way around it. And that's fine - i don't begrudge the faction that. But they're not objectively OP. 

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Just now, edopersichetti said:

I would have preferred to leave them at 2SS and them being "less good". Geez, make them Df1, they're undead pigs after all...

Again, I'm telling you that, as a Gremlin player, I now don't see their use in most of my lists. Then, I don't go around telling players of other faction what models I think are good for their faction...I trust they know their faction best.

"The whole problem is the 2SS"

Also, there seems to be an odd implication lingering in the air that by being a Gremlin player you're somehow unbiased in this matter. I play against Gremlins enough that I have a very good idea of what their faction is capable off. I'll gladly invite you to comment on your experiences with other factions because more feedback is what makes for a healthier gamestate.

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3 minutes ago, Guy in Suit said:

I'd suggest if you are so convinced of your own infallible logic you contribute more constructively via play testing.

Otherwise...

 main-qimg-6901c391e7bdd13a16c36735b3e60c

Not sure if this was directed at me or someone else, but I'll throw my 2cents in :)

I'd love to playtest - I have a bit for Wave 5 - but it's not like someone asked me to playtest 3SS Stuffed Piglets ;)

I do play a lot of Malifaux though, once or twice a week, so I think I at the very least know what I'm talking about...

p.s. I'm not the only one suggesting 3SS Stuffed Piglets is a bit of a harsh cuddle (or at least, unimaginative). I just speak up for it.

I feel there's a lot of (unjustified) pressure towards the Gremlin faction that, as a whole, doesn't deserve it, not being all that dominant. I would understand more if people focused on other issues (for instance, as they did with Leveticus and Hamelin which were simply unbalanced). 

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A model that is 2 SS that does absolutely nothing except activate is still worth hiring for early game activation control. Stuffed piglets actually did something.

Reducing their stats, making them 1 hit killable, making them auto explode or many other of the suggested fixes wouldn't have addressed that fundamental point.

A repeatable, burnable activation that does absolutely nothing else is still great value at 2 stones. No change to piglets save inelegant and confusing rules to limit their activation potential would change that fact, and the identified problem, spam for activation, would not be solved by changes to stats and abilities.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, trikk said:

Swinecursed and Tavish are pretty good and don`t die to a stiff breeze. 

Leaving them at 2SS means you can spam them for activations.

The key thing here is what the top tier players are doing. 2ss spammable (not limited by a rare value) models lets them work around one of the most important things to a Malifaux turn: Activations. Normally, if you're wanting to have model A do something that sets up model B and model C, your opponent gets an activation between model A and the other two. Companion/Accomplice lets you work around that directly, but is only available on select models, and doesn't let you get both B and C to do their thing without your opponent having a chance to interfere.

With spammable 2ss models, you bring your power combination and flood the table with many cheap activations. Now your opponent has no chance to interrupt your power combination. That can be a pretty significant NPE when the game mechanics are built on (and advertise) back-and-forth play.

13 minutes ago, Bane said:

This idea that Gremlins are supposed to be the swarm you army of cheap activations and minions sounds great in theory. Then you look at their mid-tier priced units - Burt, Francois, Swinecursed, Trixie, Taxidermist - and you realize that these models all punch way above their 7ss price tag.

[... bit about bad players]

When you look at the competitive gamers in the Malifaux tournament scene, I think if they're being honest about it, most will tell you that 2ss activation spam is oppressive and too strong for the investment - particularly when it's included in the same faction that after out-activating you, alpha strikes you with the likes of Glowy Burt or 2x Swinecursed, or pulls Francois up with a Skeeter and goes Fast/Reckless/Charges for likely 4 dumb-luck attacks on your Master or key piece. It's why the Rat Engine was broken. If you don't think activation control is more important than ever in GG 17, I don't think you're playing enough.

And yeah, you won't see Piglets now, but that's because Bayous should be 4ss. No one should have access to spammable, summonable, Significant Minions at 3ss. Sorry.

The trade-off on those 7ss models is supposed to be their fragility or some kind of vulnerability. That fragility/vulnerability does not come up if the Gremlins player doesn't need to move them forward until everything that could hurt them has activated and is committed to a specific area.

Even if they're not summonable, spammable Significant models at 3ss is probably over the top. The hard part about Bayou Gremlins is that they rely on other models to stay alive if you're using them for persistent activation control and scheme running. That's why it is when someone asks for Somer advice the first, second, and third response is "kill the slop hauler"--it's a critical piece. Newer players or players that don't grasp that interplay in the Bayou don't negate its power; they just illustrate its subtlety/discoverability.

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1 minute ago, Tokapondora said:

"The whole problem is the 2SS"

Also, there seems to be an odd implication lingering in the air that by being a Gremlin player you're somehow unbiased in this matter. I play against Gremlins enough that I have a very good idea of what their faction is capable off. I'll gladly invite you to comment on your experiences with other factions because more feedback is what makes for a healthier gamestate.

I'm not of the habit of suggesting models of other factions are cuddled, even when it is pretty evident they need to (like Rotten Belles), lest I look like a complainer. I prefer to be creative and to find a way to counter that model with the resources at my disposal. I beat Leveticus before the cuddle, it was just more challenging. And I like a good challenge ;)

I have plenty of comments on other factions, but the only one I feel entitled to comment on is Neverborn (since I also play them and know their mechanics well enough).

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3 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

The key thing here is what the top tier players are doing. 2ss spammable (not limited by a rare value) models lets them work around one of the most important things to a Malifaux turn: Activations. Normally, if you're wanting to have model A do something that sets up model B and model C, your opponent gets an activation between model A and the other two. Companion/Accomplice lets you work around that directly, but is only available on select models, and doesn't let you get both B and C to do their thing without your opponent having a chance to interfere.

With spammable 2ss models, you bring your power combination and flood the table with many cheap activations. Now your opponent has no chance to interrupt your power combination. That can be a pretty significant NPE when the game mechanics are built on (and advertise) back-and-forth play.

The trade-off on those 7ss models is supposed to be their fragility or some kind of vulnerability. That fragility/vulnerability does not come up if the Gremlins player doesn't need to move them forward until everything that could hurt them has activated and is committed to a specific area.

Even if they're not summonable, spammable Significant models at 3ss is probably over the top. The hard part about Bayou Gremlins is that they rely on other models to stay alive if you're using them for persistent activation control and scheme running. That's why it is when someone asks for Somer advice the first, second, and third response is "kill the slop hauler"--it's a critical piece. Newer players or players that don't grasp that interplay in the Bayou don't negate its power; they just illustrate its subtlety/discoverability.

Thanks for your comment - this is a nice argument.

We seem to agree on the fact that one can't simply cry "this is broken" without knowing how a faction works as a whole. Some models may seem over the top, but they fit into a larger framework. 

I play Gremlins extensively and I never found them dominant, to the point that I usually prefer to bring Neverborn to tournaments ;)

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11 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

I'm not of the habit of suggesting models of other factions are cuddled...

There are a good number of us who care about the quality of the game as a whole, not as partisan representatives of our own factions.  2ss activations that can be used to fill out a list where there is already a dearth of mid range to cheap options put a lot of lists over the top as far as activation control goes.  Those who play with and against these models a lot should be speaking up about things like this.  A change to stuffed piglets was absolutely justified.  Suggesting that the change was out of laziness is not something you can really speak to if you were not a part of the discussion.

I think every single one of these changes was good for the health of the game and that comes as an arcanist player who consistently uses mech rider, wind gamin, and practiced production.

I play against good gremlin players a decent amount and it is my honest opinion that the pressure towards the gremlin faction is completely justified.  It has and will continue to be discussed in other places.  I would be glad to run you through a list of the reasons in PM if you'd like.

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3 minutes ago, Grrn said:

There are a good number of us who care about the quality of the game as a whole, not as partisan representatives of our own factions.  2ss activations that can be used to fill out a list where there is already a dearth of mid range to cheap options put a lot of lists over the top as far as activation control goes.  Those who play with and against these models a lot should be speaking up about things like this.  A change to stuffed piglets was absolutely justified.  Suggesting that the change was out of laziness is not something you can really speak to if you were not a part of the discussion.

I think every single one of these changes was good for the health of the game and that comes as an arcanist player who consistently uses mech rider, wind gamin, and practiced production.

I play against good gremlin players a decent amount and it is my honest opinion that the pressure towards the gremlin faction is completely justified.  It has and will continue to be discussed in other places.  I would be glad to run you through a list of the reasons in PM if you'd like.

I absolutely care about the quality of the game as a whole, I love Malifaux! Besides, I play 3 factions, not just Gremlins. But see, for example I play Colette, I use(d) Practiced Production a lot, and I recognize it needed to be fixed. I feel differently about Stuffed Piglets...

My personal opinion, playing the game, is that Gremlins is a faction that attracts lots of heat from the opponents, but is not nearly top of the board, so I'm not sure why it keeps getting adjusted.

I'm happy to talk more about it if you'd like, I'm just a bit busy this week, but I love talking about Malifaux :)

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Wow, this has quickly derailed into an overall discussion threat on how Gremlins are supposedly ranked. 

I like the recent errata, it seems a lot of issues were adressed that have been complained about - reasonably, that is. 

 

I am still amazed Doppelganger hasnt been changed (but no complains from me:-P).

 

I think it is really hard to adress changes andat the same time keep what is unique to masters/models and maintaining balance. That, plus GG changes affect gameplay and 'tiers', so with gg17 for example, some playstyles or masters in Neverborn are less seen because of frame for murder

 

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48 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Tavish is a henchman, and he's a merc. He's hardly a representative of the Gremlin faction.

And again, there are other ways to limit the activation spam. One was suggested above. I could have seen lowering their stats too: make them die to one good shot. It's not like they resuscitate after they die...

What does him being a henchman have to do with anything? 

 

Also when we`re with Model balance vs Faction balance. In the January errata Papa Loco and Austringers got hit really hard for no apparent faction reason.

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24 minutes ago, Grrn said:

There are a good number of us who care about the quality of the game as a whole, not as partisan representatives of our own factions.  2ss activations that can be used to fill out a list where there is already a dearth of mid range to cheap options put a lot of lists over the top as far as activation control goes.  Those who play with and against these models a lot should be speaking up about things like this.  A change to stuffed piglets was absolutely justified.  Suggesting that the change was out of laziness is not something you can really speak to if you were not a part of the discussion.

I think every single one of these changes was good for the health of the game and that comes as an arcanist player who consistently uses mech rider, wind gamin, and practiced production.

I play against good gremlin players a decent amount and it is my honest opinion that the pressure towards the gremlin faction is completely justified.  It has and will continue to be discussed in other places.  I would be glad to run you through a list of the reasons in PM if you'd like.

You can't really claim 

Quote

Suggesting that the change was out of laziness is not something you can really speak to if you were not a part of the discussion.

When the discussion was behind  closed doors resulting in most people not being able to take part in the discussion :p.

I don't argue that Stuffed pigs needed a change, my problem with the change is it makes the model all but obsolete which imo is a bad change. Rats were changed from going from a must have in nearly all outcast lists to still being very needed and useful in a themed Hamelin list. That was a good change.

 

Changing stuffed pigs to 3SS without any other changes is going result in Stuffed pigs no longer being hired and the pigapult no longer being considered outside of specific Somer and Ulix lists. That imo is a bad change. 

You fix the issue of the out activation in Gremlins, and in the result condense the viable Gremlin models to an even smaller pooler when people are also complaining they only ever see the same 7-10 models when playing against Gremlins.

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As someone who owns every faction (except Arcanists and Outcasts) and love my Malifaux children equally (except Ressers, you know you're my first love boo), the change to Stuffed Pigs is a mixed bag. 

I liked to be able to use the Pigapult when I felt like being semi-compeditive but still have a bit of a laugh, because it was never the strongest shooting model -- but that's made more difficult with 3 SS pigs. That said, the implications for Wong are absolutely warranted and it's an excellent thing for the health of the game as it pertains to him being a master.

Everyone's experience is different, but especially after the release of Swine Cursed it was very difficult to justify being able to run the Gremlin All-Stars (Trixie and Burt), McTavish AND Swine Cursed and still have a way to out-activate most of my opponents, or drop one of those models and get 13 activations with ease. They'd ask post-game how they should adapt to deal with that and I didn't have an answer, to me that says a lot.

Ultimately I think it will lead to more creative list building and less excuses for people to say Gremlins are OP. That is great for the faction. 

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In my opinion the stuffed piglets are a 2.5 stone model. They have different roles from a bayou gremlin but can't really compete with them at 3 stones.  

It's a shame that they will see little table time now (unless summoned) but this is for the good of the game. 

I only play gremlins and have only been playing competitively since may but I have used stuffed pigs and faced them in a manner which is a negative player experience. 

It was possible to build a list where you could pretty much guarantee going last and drop a fast, reckless, glowy burt into the middle of an enemy crew (or it's highest priority target) in turn one and, black joker aside,  murder it. 

In the same list you could also have seven cards in hand at this point (and have stoned for two)  minimising your chances of flipping said jokers.

This was not good for the game.

This was not fun for anyone involved. 

A way to fix the pigapault issue would be to have a one stone "non activating" pig rock as ammunition. 

 

In a similar vain I think the change to the wind gamin is on point. I've lost track of the times I've faced them and they've cost me points by burying rather than dying only later to push an imbued energies langsteen into my crew. 

 

There is (now was)  a regular occurrence of having a raptor unbury in a corner of my deployment zone only for practiced production to drop a scheme marker from it before it would bury again and do the same in the opposite corner. My response was to keep a lightening bug back to kill it. This didn't break the game but this change makes it better.

 

I am glad that nihilism is to be addressed in the next gg. The one thing that has caused me the most negative playing experience is facing a Hamelin crew with nix and Ashes and dust where every other model can sacrifice in a giving conditions heavy scheme pool.  I've played games where my schemes are basically picked for me.  

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I'm actually really happy with all of the Arcanist changes! PP is one that's been super obviously in need of a look (to the point where I've always refused to use it with Raptors as it never felt like a gimmick that was going to survive. It's still absolutely usable as-is, I just wish Colette's toys has been an exception to it but oh well.

Wind Gamin is again totally agreeable. You don't get the bury, but you do the push immediately is a mixed bag of changes but on the whole it seems like the right move, especially from what I've heard of some spam lists especially in the European meta. We're still getting the push which in some circumstances is still just as valuable, you just have less control over when it happens.

Mech Rider one was unexpected, but in theory I like both of the changes. The positioning of the Scheme Markers is more restricted in the early game but better end-game, and being able to do it multiple times per turn is pretty sweet for some schemes. I haven't played it in a while now, and this might convince me to give it another shot. The AV cuddle makes sense seeing as how strong a summon it was, though I hope this means Wyrd will be willing to give us more 4ss Constructs now! :D 

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