edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 To all those who are mortally afraid of Gremlins, here is a list of tournament results (it's 2015, but it's the only one I could find with a quick search) Adepticon-Outcasts-Levi and Daw Gencon Avatar of Malifaux-Guild-Sonnia NOVA Open-Guild-Sonnia UK Nationals-Joe Wood-Ressurectionists-Kirai UK Masters-Ant Holt-Ressurectionists Nythera Event-Guild BKFaux-Ressurs Life Free or Die Cheating - Ressurectionists - Weakland Captain Con - Ressurectionists Mali-Fest- Ten Thunders - Adam Talbot Templecon- Guild-Perdita Connecticon - Outcasts - Levi Isle of Faux - Jake Barlow - 10 Thunders - Cow Wars - Mark Ruckuss - Neverborn - Dreamer Haul of Eggs - Mark Ruckuss - Neverborn - Dreamer Scottish GT - Maria Wieland - Outcasts Deliverance - Martin Wodehouse - Arcanists - Collette Play More Games Malifaux - Mark Henderson - Gremlins Tell me again how strong Gremlins are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokapondora Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, edopersichetti said: To all those who are mortally afraid of Gremlins, here is a list of tournament results (it's 2015, but it's the only one I could find with a quick search) Adepticon-Outcasts-Levi and Daw Gencon Avatar of Malifaux-Guild-Sonnia NOVA Open-Guild-Sonnia UK Nationals-Joe Wood-Ressurectionists-Kirai UK Masters-Ant Holt-Ressurectionists Nythera Event-Guild BKFaux-Ressurs Life Free or Die Cheating - Ressurectionists - Weakland Captain Con - Ressurectionists Mali-Fest- Ten Thunders - Adam Talbot Templecon- Guild-Perdita Connecticon - Outcasts - Levi Isle of Faux - Jake Barlow - 10 Thunders - Cow Wars - Mark Ruckuss - Neverborn - Dreamer Haul of Eggs - Mark Ruckuss - Neverborn - Dreamer Scottish GT - Maria Wieland - Outcasts Deliverance - Martin Wodehouse - Arcanists - Collette Play More Games Malifaux - Mark Henderson - Gremlins Tell me again how strong Gremlins are. Pretty damn strong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tris Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, edopersichetti said: To all those who are mortally afraid of Gremlins, here is a list of tournament results (it's 2015, but it's the only one I could find with a quick search) Adepticon-Outcasts-Levi and Daw Gencon Avatar of Malifaux-Guild-Sonnia NOVA Open-Guild-Sonnia UK Nationals-Joe Wood-Ressurectionists-Kirai UK Masters-Ant Holt-Ressurectionists Nythera Event-Guild BKFaux-Ressurs Life Free or Die Cheating - Ressurectionists - Weakland Captain Con - Ressurectionists Mali-Fest- Ten Thunders - Adam Talbot Templecon- Guild-Perdita Connecticon - Outcasts - Levi Isle of Faux - Jake Barlow - 10 Thunders - Cow Wars - Mark Ruckuss - Neverborn - Dreamer Haul of Eggs - Mark Ruckuss - Neverborn - Dreamer Scottish GT - Maria Wieland - Outcasts Deliverance - Martin Wodehouse - Arcanists - Collette Play More Games Malifaux - Mark Henderson - Gremlins Tell me again how strong Gremlins are. There where a lot of models missing for Gremlins in 2015...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, trikk said: This is ridicolously high compared to other Factions. Guild has Nellie, Arcanists have Sandep. OC have Hamelin and Leveticus. Gremlins haveing 3 is not really bad. Gremlin faction is pretty high in the rankings. Its definitely not in the bottom. Yet they win very rarely. So perhaps they are not as high as one would think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, Tris said: There where a lot of models missing for Gremlins in 2015...... Sure, but then, so there were for other factions. I seriously doubt 2SS Stuffed Piglets were this crazy broken things that made Gremlins unplayable for an opponent... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Tokapondora said: Pretty damn strong. Lol I can't reply to anyone that denies the evidence Gremlins are a fun faction to play and luckily some masters are viable (but none of them broken), but they are not stronger than any other faction, and in fact, they regularly bow to the likes of Outcasts, Guild, and Ressers. I seriously doubt 2SS Stuffed Piglets was this crazy unbalancing factor and Gremlins were far from unbeatable even before this cuddle. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokapondora Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, edopersichetti said: Sure, but then, so there were for other factions. I seriously doubt 2SS Stuffed Piglets were this crazy broken things that made Gremlins unplayable for an opponent... You're quoting a handful of results from 2015, before Gaining Grounds was a thing, a whole lot of models were released and Gremlins and TT were miles below other factions in usage. Not sure what you're trying to get out of that about the results in GG17 with two new books of models being released. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 36 minutes ago, trikk said: This is ridicolously high compared to other Factions. Guild has Nellie, Arcanists have Sandep. OC have Hamelin and Leveticus. Gremlins haveing 3 is not really bad. Gremlin faction is pretty high in the rankings. Its definitely not in the bottom. If Sandeep is the only tier one Master of the Arcanists, then Somer is the only tier one Master of the Gremlins. Even though Sandeep might be the best that doesn't mean that the likes of Ramos and Marcus aren't up there. And Gremlin Faction seemed to be number five in the UK and US, so the bottom half but not the worst. (According to @Bazlord_Prime's statistical interpretation which seemed to me to be the most reliable.) 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, edopersichetti said: Yet they win very rarely. So perhaps they are not as high as one would think... Tournaments from 2015 might not really be accurate. Scottish GT 2017 2nd 2016 UK Nationals 2nd and 3rd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 11 minutes ago, Tokapondora said: It fixes 2 SS models being hireable by an entire faction. Which allows them a bit more leeway in the next models they design, it makes it harder for the already strong masters to make use of them so freely, and keeps the game in a healthier place. And Gremlins are pretty damn strong buddy. Not particularly popular, but very strong. You must have had some really bad experiences about Gremlins to talk that way! The most competitive Gremlin master is Som'er, and he doesn't do Stuffed Piglets. Which are those scary strong masters that were abusing Stuffed Piglets to dominate tournaments and competitive play? If you want the game to be in a healthy place, you should focus on the really unbalanced situations (for example, Nellie being the only playable Guild master in GG17, or Outcasts not having any reason to play anything else than Leveticus or Hamelin). p.s. Neverborn with Dreamer, Collodi and Lilith have 3 top tier masters that are much, much more solid than Som'er, Wong or Zipp... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, edopersichetti said: Lol I can't reply to anyone that denies the evidence Gremlins are a fun faction to play and luckily some masters are viable (but none of them broken), but they are not stronger than any other faction, and in fact, they regularly bow to the likes of Outcasts, Guild, and Ressers. I seriously doubt 2SS Stuffed Piglets was this crazy unbalancing factor and Gremlins were far from unbeatable even before this cuddle. Only thing that saves Guild in GG17 is Nellie. If Reva wasn`t a thing, I doubt Ressers would matter too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, trikk said: Tournaments from 2015 might not really be accurate. Scottish GT 2017 2nd 2016 UK Nationals 2nd and 3rd 2nd and 3rd are not 1st...so really, you're just supporting my point here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tris Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, trikk said: Only thing that saves Guild in GG17 is Nellie. If Reva wasn`t a thing, I doubt Ressers would matter too. Honestly, Reva is imo not as competetive as Nico and Kirai, but that`s pretty off-topic^^ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 28 minutes ago, melkore said: It just strikes me as a little odd that Arcanists were the emergency fix case when so many other models need cuddles. There's a number of reasons this may be the case: The fixes were a long-time coming, but with Wave 5 (and GG2018 Beta) about to drop went from "we'll get to it" to "it needs to be done" for some reason. The people who have that knowledge in full are either bound by NDA or the ones enforcing/executing the NDA. Feedback from TO/Henchmen, as well as ranked Arcanist players regarding those models. I'm not a highly ranked Arcanist player, but: The Wind Gamin definitely needed the fix and I welcome it. There was too much utility in an effectively unkillable model. Practiced Production needed the fix. The interference and harassment capabilities of the Raptor are incredible for a 3 stone peon. It should not be a clutch piece in scheme marker placement. I know that the Mechanical Rider seems like a "health of the game" (when other factions have to come up with a good excuse to bring their Rider and we have to come up with a good excuse not to, there's a balance issue in there) thing more than an emergency, but see my first bullet. Those of us receiving the errata for the first time today do not have the full context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bane Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Wind Gamin change was smart re: them not dying, because immunity to strats and schemes infuriates people. Piglets being 3ss is a great move. However, Bayous should be 4. No one should have Significant Minions at 4ss, barring a drawback like Guild hounds have or something like Marionettes being a totem, etc. They shouldn't be a hirable, summonable model. Activations are super valuable in GG17, and ones that can interact and go Reckless are even more valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, edopersichetti said: 2nd and 3rd are not 1st...so really, you're just supporting my point here No I`m not. You said Gremlins are not a Tier 1 faction. I think they are pretty strong, especially under GG17. A lot stronger than Guild Just now, Tris said: Honestly, Reva is imo not as competetive as Nico and Kirai, but that`s pretty off-topic^^ I personally think Nico isn`t that good. Kirai and McMourning are better in GG17 as they are less resource intensive and that apparently is the META right now. Top 3 masters in the game all summon with no additional resources (Somer, Sandeep, Hamelin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Bane said: Wind Gamin change was smart re: them not dying, because immunity to strats and schemes infuriates people. Piglets being 3ss is a great move. However, Bayous should be 4. No one should have Significant Minions at 4ss, barring a drawback like Guild hounds have. Activations are super valuable in GG17, and ones that can interact and go Reckless are even more valuable. I think you mean 3ss or less than 4ss Effectively the same reason Practiced Production absolutely needed the update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, Bane said: Wind Gamin change was smart re: them not dying, because immunity to strats and schemes infuriates people. Piglets being 3ss is a great move. However, Bayous should be 4. No one should have Significant Minions at 4ss, barring a drawback like Guild hounds have. Activations are super valuable in GG17, and ones that can interact and go Reckless are even more valuable. Yes, we should raise the whole faction up a SS You must be new to the game. Gremlins as a faction have a specific playstyle: overall poor stats, especially Wp (with some exceptions) and higher numbers. Is the ever present difference between elite (quality-based) factions and quantity-based factions: Elves/Dwarfs vs Greenskins/Skaven if you want. If you take away Gremlins' numbers, you just have a faction with sub-par models and no chance of winning a game. As is, and as pointed out by others, Gremlins are mid-tier at best. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Results from 2015 are absolutely meaningless to this discussion. The game has changed significantly since then. The schemes are different, the strategies are different, there are 2 more entire books worth of models available. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, trikk said: No I`m not. You said Gremlins are not a Tier 1 faction. I think they are pretty strong, especially under GG17. A lot stronger than Guild I personally think Nico isn`t that good. Kirai and McMourning are better in GG17 as they are less resource intensive and that apparently is the META right now. Top 3 masters in the game all summon with no additional resources (Somer, Sandeep, Hamelin). Being stronger than Guild doesn't mean being Tier 1. Here is some datahttp://www.malifaux-rankings.com/#/faction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, edopersichetti said: Being stronger than Guild doesn't mean being Tier 1. Here is some datahttp://www.malifaux-rankings.com/#/factions So actually Gremlins appear to be number 6, not even 4... Only because you are looking at the wrong stat. Score just means they aren`t played very often. If you look at AVG they are number 1. But supposedly there are a lot of "Zombie accounts" that drive they rankings. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokapondora Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, edopersichetti said: Being stronger than Guild doesn't mean being Tier 1. Here is some datahttp://www.malifaux-rankings.com/#/faction Gremlins 56.41 So Gremlins average out at the highest score? Thank god we got them piggies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, trikk said: Only because you are looking at the wrong stat. If you look at AVG they are number 1. But supposedly there are a lot of "Zombie accounts" that drive they rankings. Now, I don't know about data being manipulated and whatnot. But in all friendliness and frankness, I can tell you that, as a Gremlin player, I hardly feel I play a particularly strong faction. There are three viable masters (which is different from dominant) and the rest are simply not competitive. And when I play tournaments, I bring Neverborn (or even Arcanists). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 I would also like to point out that Arcanists had 3 changes which probably means they are the most problematic. I would also also like to point out that errata doesn`t have a lot to do with power level. Its usually NPE/game breaking models or things that don`t work as intended 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, Tokapondora said: Gremlins 56.41 So Gremlins average out at the highest score? Thank god we got them piggies. So we score good on average but we hardly ever win anything? What's the point of that? Arrive 3rd to every tournament? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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