Terror and Conditions caused by enemy models

[MrDeathTrout]

Here's something that came up last night and I wasn't sure how to answer.  An Model protected by an Oxfordian Mage's Protection from the Blood failed a Terror test vs. an enemy model and would gain Paralyzed.  But affected model "... is immune to Conditions caused by enemy models..." from the upgrade.

Is the model...

(1) ...gain the Paralyzed from the Horror duel (not from the enemy model).  I can see this being correct since if you die due to a condition like Burning no one gets credit for the kill.  

(2) ...gain the Paralyzed from the enemy model since it is the source of the Horror duel?  If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.  It stands to reason the model with Terror (also an ability) would count as causing the Horror duel.  I was unsure what the answer was when writing this, but not I'm pretty sure this is the correct answer.  How does everyone else feel about this?

 

The Oxfordian Mage's ability and a couple similar ones:

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Oxfordian Mage upgrade's Protection from the Blood: Friendly models with the Warding Runes Upgrade gain the following Ability while within a10 of this model:Protection from the Blood: This model is immune to Conditions caused by enemy models and damage from p effects.

The Guild upgrade's Numb To The World: This model may choose not to gain Conditions applied by the Actions and Abilities of enemy models.

Jack Daw's The Lurking Fear: This model is immune to the Paralyzed Condition if it is applied by enemy models.

 

 

A couple of rule book spinets on Terrifying and Horror.

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Terrifying (Living) 10: Enemy Living models must pass a TN 10 Horror Duel if they end a Walk Action within this model’s engagement range or target this model with an Action.

The results of the model’s Horror Duel will determine whether it can fight or is forced to cower in fear. A model that fails a Horror Duel immediately gains the Paralyzed Condition. 

 

 

Pertinent FAQ entries

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3. If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill?
When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the  kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.

80. Some models have Actions or Abilities which create Hazardous Terrain. If another model is killed by  one of these Actions or Abilities, does it count as being killed by the model with the Action or Ability for Strategy and Scheme purposes?
If the model creates Hazardous terrain around itself with an Aura, then it counts as having killed any models which are killed as a result of the Aura (i.e. a model which is killed by Jaakuna Ubume’s Drowning In Her Wake Ability counts as killed by Jaakuna Ubume). However, if the model creates separate Markers which are Hazardous, any models killed by those Markers count as having been killed by neither Crew (i.e. Hungry Land Markers generated by the Mysterious Emissary).

91. If a model with 2 wounds remaining is killed by the Poison Condition while within range of Sebastian’s Induction Ability, does Sebastian count as having killed the model?
No, the damage is still dealt by the Poison Condition, Induction just causes Poison to deal more damage.

 

 

[Myyrä]

I agree. It doesn't make a difference whether condition is caused by an Action or an Ability of the enemy model, it is caused by the enemy model nonetheless.

This is also quite similar to FAQ question 10:

10) Does being immune to damage caused by pulses make a model immune to the damage caused by failing a Simple Duel, if the Simple Duel was generated by a pulse? Yes.

That seems to imply that immunity protects against effects that are caused after failing a simple duel.

[Franchute]

The mage is not immune to conditions. Am I wrong? It is the henchman or Ironsides. Isnt it?

[MrDeathTrout]

22 minutes ago, Franchute said:

The mage is not immune to conditions. Am I wrong? It is the henchman or Ironsides. Isnt it?

You are correct, sorry, It would be Ironsides and/or a henchman with the Warding Runes Upgrade.  I'll edit my original post.

[DocSchlock]

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...gain the Paralyzed from the enemy model since it is the source of the Horror duel?  If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.  It stands to reason the model with Terror (also an ability) would count as causing the Horror duel.  I was unsure what the answer was when writing this, but not I'm pretty sure this is the correct answer.  How does everyone else feel about this?

I'd call it as 2 - the Mage would ignore the Paralyze Condition.

Burning and Poison have their own resolved effects later on (or triggered by other things) and are bad comparisons here. You're conflating a Condition's effects with the moment of application of the Condition. Who put the Burning / Poison on isn't in question in those FAQ rulings - it's does the damage from the burning / poison come from a specific model.

For example, if a failed Ability Duel granted Burning, the Mage would ignore the Burning since it was being applied by the Ability of a model. If the Mage has Burning on him somehow, the Protection would never ignore the damage from Burning, since that's an effect from a Condition, not gaining a Condition.

Since FAQ rulings are specific and narrow:
80 and 79 are not relevant in this case. 81 is illustrating the effects of a Condition are still the basis of origin for the purposes of Condition kills and damage.

If 1 were correct, all duels caused by Abilities / Actions would not longer apply effects that source from the originating model. I think that could possibly cause a lot of rules issues since Attack Actions would no longer be dealing damage that comes from a model, but from the Attack Duel, so "damage from enemy models" would now no longer apply as well, as an example of a rules breakdown.

That is how I see it.

[Franchute]

You can lose a horror duel and trigger things like smell fear for instance but ironsides or the henchman would not get paralyzed even though they lost the horror duel.

[MrDeathTrout]

Thanks everyone.