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spect_spidey

Opposed Actions with a TN

Question

I need some help getting this clear in my head. If a model takes an action that targets an enemy model that also has a required TN for it to work, does the defender flip immediately or do they wait until the attacking model meets the TN? I have read the rules several times, but I am not seeing anything on it. I could see it going either way. I just am not sure which way is correct. Is the casting considered a simple duel to achieve the TN and then an opposed after the TN is made or is it a straight opposed duel?

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It's a straight opposed duel. You check whether the TN was reached or not at the end of opposed duel.

Small rulebook page 25:

Quote

 

Opposed Duel Sequence

1. Declare Soulstone Use

2. Flip Fate Card and Add Stat

3. Choose to Cheat Fate

4. Declare one Trigger

5. Determine Success

 

Under "Determine Success" it goes into more detail:

Quote

 

If the Attacking model’s duel total equals or exceeds the Defending model’s duel total and any TN associated with the Action (which may include required suits), then the Attacker has won the duel and the Action succeeds. Apply results as applicable, which is often the Defender suffering damage or another ill effect.

If the Defending model’s duel total exceeds the Attacking model’s duel total, or the Attacker’s final duel total fails to meet the TN of the Action (either by not meeting the value or the required suits), the Defender has won the duel and the Action has failed. Apply results if applicable, usually the Defender has simply avoided any negative results

 

 

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As Nikodemus posted:

The model with the lower duel total must choose whether or not to Cheat Fate first. [page 26. small rulebook]

And:

It's important to note that if you are defending against an oppossed duel with a TN and your total is lower than the attacker's you will need to decide whether or not to cheat before seeing if the attacker decides to cheat to meet his TN.

It is really straight forward. Whenever you are loosing an opposed dual in any case you must cheat first. Doesn't mater if he is meeting his TN or not.

Note he can always cheat to meet is TN if you choose not to cheat.

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solkan   

If you'd like additional reassurance on how it's played, the QuickStart rules in the two player starter set include an example of the situation.

For an opposed duel with a target number, you check the target number after both players have their final duel totals, not before.  

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WWHSD   

It's important to note that if you are defending against an oppossed duel with a TN and your total is lower than the attacker's you will need to decide whether or not to cheat before seeing if the attacker decides to cheat to meet his TN.

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13 hours ago, WWHSD said:

It's important to note that if you are defending against an oppossed duel with a TN and your total is lower than the attacker's you will need to decide whether or not to cheat before seeing if the attacker decides to cheat to meet his TN.

This was the part that was throwing me off. I understand it is the rules, but it doesn't make sense that the defender should have to cheat first if the TN is not achieved. It seems like that puts the attacker at a big advantage. It makes the defender burn a card for something that wouldn't occur. It goes against the basic premise of opposed duels in my opinion. Yes it acts the same with the lower total cheating first, but in this instance my lower total doesn't mean I lose if they don't hit their TN. I feel they should have to succeed at their TN before I should have to decide to cheat. This makes it almost like the cheating with your card face down ability. 

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Quote

The model with the lower duel total must choose whether or not to Cheat Fate first. [page 26. small rulebook]

Dems the rules.

Also, as a general rule this game favours the attacker. Attacker wins ties. Defender must declare stone use first, when flipping multiple cards defender picks theirs first, loser/defender declares their trigger first, defender resolves their triggers first in case of timing conflicts.

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Ludvig   

It's how the game a played. It would be a major issue for a lot of models if the opposite was true. 

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On 24/7/2017 at 11:14 PM, WWHSD said:

It's important to note that if you are defending against an oppossed duel with a TN and your total is lower than the attacker's you will need to decide whether or not to cheat before seeing if the attacker decides to cheat to meet his TN.

Sorry for this other post, but sure I don't understand well,

Example: attacker start from 6 he have a tn of 12 and he flip 3

Defender start from def 5 and he flip 3

Who have to cheating first? 

Generally I think attacker because if he lost his tn, then he fail duel? Or no?

Thanks

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Many thanks Stonewall I have to say this to all other players where I play because we always thinks that if the attacker don't have tn lost duel automatically and have to cheat first

 

Sorry for my terrible english

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1 hour ago, Stonewall78 said:

As Nikodemus posted:

The model with the lower duel total must choose whether or not to Cheat Fate first. [page 26. small rulebook]

And:

It's important to note that if you are defending against an oppossed duel with a TN and your total is lower than the attacker's you will need to decide whether or not to cheat before seeing if the attacker decides to cheat to meet his TN.

It is really straight forward. Whenever you are loosing an opposed dual in any case you must cheat first. Doesn't mater if he is meeting his TN or not.

Note he can always cheat to meet is TN if you choose not to cheat.

Sorry again, but if tn required a suit??

Ok, who lose the duel cheat first (I imagine also with suit) if defender player choose to not cheat, which player lose duel?

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WWHSD   
3 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Sorry again, but if tn required a suit??

Ok, who lose the duel cheat first (I imagine also with suit) if defender player choose to not cheat, which player lose duel?

Lower total doesn't care about suits. Ignore the TN until you've determined who has won or lost the duel.

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Suits don't matter to cheating as it is a criteria for it to succeed. Would be checked at the same time as you check TN. If you have the lower value you have to cheat first. If the person doesn't hit their TN or have the needed suits the result doesn't go off regardless of the values flipped. Hence why you can cheat to hit your TN etc.

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8 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Sorry again, but if tn required a suit??

Ok, who lose the duel cheat first (I imagine also with suit) if defender player choose to not cheat, which player lose duel?

If the TN (including suit) is met, then whoever has the lowest total loses the duel. Ties go to the attacker.

If the TN is not met, then the duel total does not matter, the defender wins the duel. Follow what @Nikodemus said here:

 

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10 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Sorry again, but if tn required a suit??

Ok, who lose the duel cheat first (I imagine also with suit) if defender player choose to not cheat, which player lose duel?

If where you (or your local gaming group) are confused at is the cheating aspect:

The person with the lowest total (or the defender in the case of ties) cheats first. You do not check for TN to determine who must decide to cheat first.

If you are the defender and losing the duel, you are allowed to ask questions before deciding to cheat, especially about target numbers and suit requirements. You can even check the card yourself so that you know whether or not your opponent is currently going to succeed.

  • If you choose not to cheat, your opponent then has to figure out if they can or want to cheat to actually succeed. If they don't, you've won because the attack failed. If they do, you've lost because your duel total is lower and the TN was met.
  • If you choose to cheat, you play the card from your Control Hand (or Bayou Two Card if you have it) first because you are losing the duel. Then your opponent decides whether or not they are going to cheat based off of their Control Hand, the current duel totals, and action requirements like TN. If they do not cheat, you've won because the attack failed (you might have a higher duel total, but it doesn't matter here). If they do, then you check to see who wins the duel based off of the new totals. If the attacker wins the duel, the attack succeeds. Otherwise, you as the defender win.

On that second bullet point: there is a tactic that involves cheating, but not to win, but to make the margin closer. If the attacker's TN is 13:tome (acting value of 6) and the duel total is Attacker: 15:mask and Defender: 9 (resisting value of 6), the defender can cheat in a 8 to bring their total to 14 (or a 9 to get to 15). This means that the Defender is still losing the duel, but the Attacker must cheat in an equal :tome or better to succeed, instead of a 7:tome.

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1 hour ago, spooky_squirrel said:

If the TN (including suit) is met, then whoever has the lowest total loses the duel. Ties go to the attacker.

If the TN is not met, then the duel total does not matter, the defender wins the duel. Follow what @Nikodemus said here:

 

No, whoever wins the duel wins the duel. A defending model can't use an "after succeeding" defense trigger if they have a lower duel total even if the attack fails because it doesn't meet the TN.

scratch that. carry on.

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1 hour ago, spooky_squirrel said:

If where you (or your local gaming group) are confused at is the cheating aspect:

The person with the lowest total (or the defender in the case of ties) cheats first. You do not check for TN to determine who must decide to cheat first.

If you are the defender and losing the duel, you are allowed to ask questions before deciding to cheat, especially about target numbers and suit requirements. You can even check the card yourself so that you know whether or not your opponent is currently going to succeed.

  • If you choose not to cheat, your opponent then has to figure out if they can or want to cheat to actually succeed. If they don't, you've won because the attack failed. If they do, you've lost because your duel total is lower and the TN was met.
  • If you choose to cheat, you play the card from your Control Hand (or Bayou Two Card if you have it) first because you are losing the duel. Then your opponent decides whether or not they are going to cheat based off of their Control Hand, the current duel totals, and action requirements like TN. If they do not cheat, you've won because the attack failed (you might have a higher duel total, but it doesn't matter here). If they do, then you check to see who wins the duel based off of the new totals. If the attacker wins the duel, the attack succeeds. Otherwise, you as the defender win.

On that second bullet point: there is a tactic that involves cheating, but not to win, but to make the margin closer. If the attacker's TN is 13:tome (acting value of 6) and the duel total is Attacker: 15:mask and Defender: 9 (resisting value of 6), the defender can cheat in a 8 to bring their total to 14 (or a 9 to get to 15). This means that the Defender is still losing the duel, but the Attacker must cheat in an equal :tome or better to succeed, instead of a 7:tome.

Thanks for detailed explanation!

And thanks to all for helping!

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