What new upgrades do our masters want?

[lame0]

3 hours ago, Tris said:

And the suit requirement on Somers summoning is virtually non-existent due to how 'do it like this' works.

Actually i think up until wave 4 he had some of the riskyest summoning. somer got a huge buff with do over. Before do over he had a 10% chance of not getting the mask in hand even with a stone and then his strategy summoning was such a risk because it was a total feast or famine. The way around this before was to take Merris to get the same 95% odds of having it work but it required another big point sink so instead of the minimum of 17 ss for summoning somer you needed 22 ss to get a consistent enough list in a 4-5 game tournament. I remember this was a huge consideration for me before I took a break from war gaming and wave three was coming out because a 22 point investment was a big portion of the list to get 9 stones of summoning. Also somer is a master that typically summons 1 maybe 2 turns (usually 1) so losing out on that turn of summoning is huge. (He's not like dreamer where he can use 1 master ap and get a high stone model like teddy or coppelius he needs 3 master ap, and three models to wound, a mask to pitch and at least a 6+ & 3 8+ cards to get 9 stones of models). It's 50% due to the high cost that no one really summons after turn one because using 4-5 cards from hand and 5 models towards what he can summon starts to sound pretty trash and there are better things to use those resources on.

Regardless the 5% chance of getting no masks is still a risk and although it might not lose you the game it really starts you off on the back foot. I think far to often people think there is no cost to summoning for somer but 1/20 games he gets screwed and after turn one setting up for a decent summon is so costly it usually doesn't make sense. 

[Dogmantra]

There's also the opportunity cost for Som'er that he's using Do It Like Dis to drop a Mask rather than a Ram which ofc isn't huge on turn 1, but if you're doing it later it can dictate your activation order because you need a Skeeter to drop both.

[Omenbringer]

8 hours ago, daniello_s said:

The main argument I heard from this guy (who is I believe a friend of mine despite our differences in opinion) is that it doesn't cost Somer anything to summon them. Surely new models come up with 2 wounds and it damages other Bayou Gremlins of whom they are summoned of but with Slop Hauler around and Lighting Bug the cost is nothing compared to other summoners.

So the Slop Hauler and/ or Lightning Bugs are free to hire in your community? That is a cost.

Also as Math and Dogmantra state above, positioning is a major issue and Do It Like This has an opportunity cost as well. It isn't free in either action cost or card cost and the suit isn't always beneficial for the crew to have, particularly with those models that have to declare a trigger. Sure the Skeeters can spread it around as well but they aren't free to hire either. Also as Dogmantra states, activation order is almost everything in a Gremlin crew and very unforgiving if done out of sequence. Forcing Som'er and the Slop Hauler to go early is an opportunity cost.

I do agree with Math that the Lightning Bugs healing needs to be readdressed (while I don't think they should have it, the faction is designed around easy access to healing and the Slop Haulers just don't last).

Again, Gremlin's can look amazing when piloted well and everything falls into place (positioning, card draws, etc.) but against an opponent who knows how to peel the onion, they tend towards failure more than success. This is one reason Slop Haulers don't appear as often in lists now that the Lightning Bugs are out. They are just too difficult to protect despite being a huge linchpin within the faction.

Compared to other Summoners, Som'er is really lackluster.

[Bazlord_Prime]

2 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Compared to other Summoners, Som'er is really lackluster.

Add to that he's only summoning one thing - Bayous (which are great at what they do, sure).

But it's not like he's pooping out monsters like Flesh Constructs, The Hanged or Punk Zombies!

[daniello_s]

22 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

So the Slop Hauler and/ or Lightning Bugs are free to hire in your community? That is a cost.

Not my community

As far as I remember the issue was also that healing is so easy with Slop Hauler and Bug (who is also undercosted according to some guys) that Somer's summoning is almost free. And once summoning is done Bug can do other tasks and Slop Hauler can support other models too.

[Omenbringer]

38 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Not my community

As far as I remember the issue was also that healing is so easy with Slop Hauler and Bug (who is also undercosted according to some guys) that Somer's summoning is almost free. And once summoning is done Bug can do other tasks and Slop Hauler can support other models too.

This again sounds like people who have never actually piloted the Som'er summon factory and have only seen the perfect storm of its use. It isn't as simple as it looks even if your opponent patiently sits back and allows it to function at full capacity. The activation order alone screws most people.

As far as the Slop Haulers healing, well let's just say Som'er manages to summon a full compliment of 3 Bayou Gremlins in a single activation (that cost 9 SS for the 3 Bayou Gremlin's that are the targets, plus 2 SS for the Family Tree Upgrade, and another 5 SS for the Slop Haler, total of 16 SS, and the Bayou's can't activate until after both Som'er and the Slop Hauler have gone)...

• To make this work it will cost at least 1 card plus a 6+ card and Som'er's 0 Action to guaranty the required suit for Get Your Bro (Via Do It Like Dis!) ,3 cards with a value of 8+ to succeed with the summons, and then 4 cards of 6+ value to heal the injured to max wounds. You have also done nothing  else with your master (His entire activation was spent summoning and guarantying the suit), tied down the Slop Hauler (who can only do something else if he chooses to go Reckless a the cost of 1 Wound but has to remain close to Som'er to provide healing again next turn) and can really do nothing else with 2-3 of the Bayou Gremlin's because if they move outside of 4 inches from Som'er they can't be used for summoning next turn.

...that leaves 2 Bayou Gremlin's still at 2 Wds. The rest of the 4 Bayou Gremlin's will have between 2 and 4 wounds (Let's assume average flips which returns them to full wounds).

Which Bayou's does the player choose to leave in the Back Field? Does the player risk moving the wounded ones from the back field or use the healthy ones (for the moment anyway)?

Likely the player is going to choose to leave the wounded ones (who are also probably Slow due to summoning, why use Slow ones when you will want to run the healthy non-slow ones drunk and reckless so they are OP'd). So what happens now? Som'er has 2 injured Bayou Gremlin's near him that he hopes will heal before his next activation so he can summon off of them. He also likely has 3-4 "healthy" Bayou Gremlin's (that 4th one will be slowed due to summoning) primed to dash up field Drunk and Reckless. End result 4 Bayou Gremlin's upfield at half wounds or less (because of Drunk and Reckless usage otherwise the Bayou Gremlin's are crap right?), 2-3 in the backfield (near Som'er for next turns summoning, 2 of whom are likely to be at 2 Wounds).

Let's say your opponent doesn't or can't take advantage of the situation to kill your Bayou Gremlin's upfield. Next turn you run the summon engine again. Net result is not going to be the same. The Slop hauler now has to go before Som'er in order to heal those 2 injured Bayou Gremlin's in the back field that he will use to summon the next wave. If Som'er decides to summon a full compliment then he will have 6 Bayou Gremlin's in the back field that are all going to be at half wounds with no way to heal them until the next time the Slop Hauler can activate next turn. That also means that they can't go Drunk and Reckless because they won't have the wounds to live thru it.

We also still have the problem of healing those Bayou Gremlin's we ran upfield last turn who are likely injured from running Drunk and Reckless.

We could use those Lightning Bugs at a cost of 5 SS (So now the total is 21 SS to make this work because you are going to either two of them or a Slop hauler and a Lightning Bug to have any kind of board coverage) but of course to really maximize the healing we really want to use that neat little trigger on their Magic Blasty Stick. Let's assume they are in the 8 inch bubble for Som'er's Do It Like Dis! (to provide the   ) They still need to succeed with an attack to make it work. Do we target one of our Bayou Gremlins or an enemy model that happens to be within 3" of all the models that need healing? Targeting one of your Bayou Gremlins will result in it dying on any success (any damage flip bar the Black Joker from the Magic Blasty Stick kills a Bayou that went Drunk and Reckless before it can be healed from the trigger). Targeting an enemy model risks failure (so no healing) and requires favorable positioning of the enemy model to be sure to heal everyone that needs it. Again let's hope your opponent is obligingly positioning his models to aid the summon factory but not hamper it.

While a lot of this is theoretical "in a vacuum" example, it demonstrates the fragility of the Summon Factory even when everything goes right and how it just isn't sustainable long term without a lot of effort and costs (and even then there are diminishing returns). It also requires your opponent to be unable to dissect the support required to make it function. Protecting that key Slop Hauler is very difficult, particularly given the access to models that can engage it first turn From the Shadows. After that, you have to worry about protecting those squishy Bayou Gremlins that are required for Som'er to summon. This is not that easy once they have sustained the damage from summoning. Again From the Shadows deployment can easily dissect the required models though Lure can wreak havoc as well due to the tight positioning constraints. Lightning Bugs can somewhat replace the Slop Hauler's but they aren't that much more durable or easy to protect (and of course their healing isn't free either even with a "healthy" friendly target to trigger off of).

Now don't get me wrong, I do agree that the Lightning Bug's triggered healing could probably go from 2 to 1, but it doesn't come with out risks (using it could result in healing your opponents models as well).

Now a lot of this can catch a player off guard the first few times they see it, especially if the perfect storm of sequence, position, and card draws occur; however, once they have seen it, it doesn't tend to work anywhere near as well. That Slop Hauler (or Lightning Bugs) and injured Bayou's don't tend to last very long. My players have become fairly adept at removing the healers early, forcing me to transition to one of Som'er's other play styles mid game (this is why I really favor building a crew that can do this with minimal effort).

Not trying to sound condescending (though it's the internet so who knows how it will sound) but the Summon Factory is not a viable play style for more than a turn or two (and if it isn't running at "full power" then it is much less of an issue and even easier to deal with). Having run it for years now, it just really isn't a consistent path to victory, particularly when you consider that a third to almost half of your hiring points are spent just trying to give yourself the best chance of making it work (and hoping that those damn From the Shadows models don't show up to ruin your day).

Like I said, I can think of a lot of other summoners who are a significant;y larger problem than Som'er.

[lame0]

I think it sucks people want to ruined the lightning bugs healing. It is already super situational and more or less requires somer for it to be powerful. Triggers are somers thing I think we shouldn't be trying to take that from him. I think if we were gona semi Cuddle them for somer because there was some evidence of to much power i'd just switch the trigger for tomes.

 

[Omenbringer]

A suit switch for the trigger could work with the Lightning Bugs. That way Som'er would have to use Do It Like Dis! twice (once from a Skeeter) to ensure both the summon and the healing trigger. Increases the cost by 2 SS (Skeeter hire) and requires another control card for Do It Like Dis!

I do agree that Som'er shouldn't be messed with at all. He is one of our top-three competitive choices but he is far from OP'd or even a NPE.

[Sergrum]

Tome trigger for healing wouldnt require a Do it like dis as you only need to do it once, so just relent the attack and cheat in the tome. Still would be annoying to need the tome for sure.

 

 

[lame0]

48 minutes ago, Sergrum said:

Tome trigger for healing wouldnt require a Do it like dis as you only need to do it once, so just relent the attack and cheat in the tome. Still would be annoying to need the tome for sure.

 

 

Yeah just needing an extra suit would make it much less reliable but like I said I don't think we need that cus already we need to have the mask in hand require 3 8+ s and a 6+ for do it like this. + We need at least one healer and 3 models to wound and summon off of. So I do think that if his summoning got much less reliable (risk of no healing the turn of the summon would be a big problem) then he would just become the worst summoner again. Right now I think that as a summoner he's pretty much at the sweet spot because 1 turn it's worth it after that its usually better to focus on other stuff. I don't think there is any other summoner with that level of opportunity cost which to me means that his summoning is well priced within his kit.

[Clement]

Adding an extra suit requirement would ensure that only Somer teeth can get access to that trigger, and it's (in theory) a dangerous trigger since it would also heal enemy models.  Swapping it to Tomes makes ensuring the healing harder, or you can take the slop hauler for more consistent, less plentiful, healing.   Risk v. Reward.   it's what the Gremlins are all about.

[Dogmantra]

Lightning bugs might be a bit good for 5 stones but it seems kind of silly to target their healing on a single turn with a single master that only nets 1-6* wounds more than a Slop Hauler while requiring better setup.

 

*maths: you have 6 gremlins who have each taken 2 damage, you hit a friendly who is in range of all 6 of them, healing 12 total wounds, and dealing 2-3 to the friendly (trigger is after damaging remember). So that is 9-10 wounds healed net. Compare to a Sloppy who can heal up to 4 models 1/2/3. So you heal 4 models, using Bayou Two Card on any weaks, which heals from 4-8 damage. (There are a couple of other aspects like Lenny or the BJ but I think they're mostly outliers)

[Math Mathonwy]

5 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Lightning bugs might be a bit good for 5 stones but it seems kind of silly to target their healing on a single turn with a single master that only nets 1-6* wounds more than a Slop Hauler while requiring better setup.

 

*maths: you have 6 gremlins who have each taken 2 damage, you hit a friendly who is in range of all 6 of them, healing 12 total wounds, and dealing 2-3 to the friendly (trigger is after damaging remember). So that is 9-10 wounds healed net. Compare to a Sloppy who can heal up to 4 models 1/2/3. So you heal 4 models, using Bayou Two Card on any weaks, which heals from 4-8 damage. (There are a couple of other aspects like Lenny or the BJ but I think they're mostly outliers)

I sort of agree and sort of disagree. I agree that the Lightning Bug healing is nowhere near problematic in any other circumstance except Somer Summoning. Compared to Slop Hauler I think that it is worth bearing in mind that Lightning Bugs have better range and it's a 1 AP action. I do agree with you analysis that the actual difference in Wounds healed isn't that great (thanks for putting the numbers on the table - I had never considered it at that level).

[Dogmantra]

But is it really the healing that's an issue? Ulix can do the same thing in a bigger radius for his summons as a (0) but I haven't heard any complaints about Proper Care.

It may be the contrarian in me but I feel like everyone is caught up in asking how they can cuddle things and I'm not seeing the need in a lot of cases.

[Math Mathonwy]

16 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

But is it really the healing that's an issue? Ulix can do the same thing in a bigger radius for his summons as a (0) but I haven't heard any complaints about Proper Care.

It may be the contrarian in me but I feel like everyone is caught up in asking how they can cuddle things and I'm not seeing the need in a lot of cases.

That is a valid question.

I doubt that this particular usage was the designer's original intent but that's true of a lot of things that are seen as valid and powerful yet unproblematic.

So yeah, good point. Worth pondering on. Thank you!

[PositronMike]

2 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

But is it really the healing that's an issue? Ulix can do the same thing in a bigger radius for his summons as a (0) but I haven't heard any complaints about Proper Care.

It may be the contrarian in me but I feel like everyone is caught up in asking how they can cuddle things and I'm not seeing the need in a lot of cases.

The Ulix comparison is very interesting. Ulix can summon two models and can heal them himself but he is complained about a lit less than Som'er. Is it because of the cost of the summoning engine?

If we just compare piglets to Bayou Gremlins. Som'er's engine costs 16ss (9 for bayous, 5 for lightning bug and 2 for family tree). If Som'er spends his entire activation summoning he can bring in 3 gremlins. The lightning bug then needs to use 1AP to heal them, assuming the bug shots Som'er means that at the end of the process you have 6 full health models and a master having taken two wounds. Ulix's engine is harder to price but assuming you only summon a pocket from a 50mm based pig once per turn you need 3 x 50mm based pigs plus husbandry. The cheapest option is pork chops which means Ulix's engine costs a minimum of 24ss, 8 more than Som'ers. Is 8ss that important in balancing summoning? Or is the biggest issue perception? Is Som'ers summoning more of a problem because it is Som'er doing it? 

[Dogmantra]

54 minutes ago, PositronMike said:

Ulix's engine is harder to price but assuming you only summon a pocket from a 50mm based pig once per turn you need 3 x 50mm based pigs plus husbandry. 

I think that's an unrealistic assumption. I doubt anyone runs three porkchops, and generally you at least want a turn 1 War Pig. I'd say a more realistic cost would be something like Husbandry + Old Major + Mechy P for a total cost of 19 which is still more than Som'er's but Som'er also doesn't summon 17 stones of models on turn 1.

[PolishSausage]

Looking at the realistic summoning engine with Somer would be:

Family +2

Bayous x4 +12

Slops x2 +10

Student of Conflict +5

Emissary +10 

 

39 stones total

[the tick]

4 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

I think that's an unrealistic assumption. I doubt anyone runs three porkchops, and generally you at least want a turn 1 War Pig. I'd say a more realistic cost would be something like Husbandry + Old Major + Mechy P for a total cost of 19 which is still more than Som'er's but Som'er also doesn't summon 17 stones of models on turn 1.

Even with "Proper Care" Ulix still needs the Slop Hauler in my opinion. If you can swing the right triggers then pigs can self heal-ish....but I'd still rate the Slop Hauler as a must have for Ulix.

Also, I don't have the Lightning Bugs yet. I'm guessing from what I've heard and read that their healing is a trigger on their Attack? Anybody mind telling me how that trigger works?

[Myyrä]

2 hours ago, the tick said:

Even with "Proper Care" Ulix still needs the Slop Hauler in my opinion. If you can swing the right triggers then pigs can self heal-ish....but I'd still rate the Slop Hauler as a must have for Ulix.

Also, I don't have the Lightning Bugs yet. I'm guessing from what I've heard and read that their healing is a trigger on their Attack? Anybody mind telling me how that trigger works?

Yippie!: After damaging, all models within 3 of the target except this  model heal 2 damage.

[the tick]

3 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Yippie!: After damaging, all models within 3 of the target except this  model heal 2 damage.

Awesome. Thanks for posting that.