Reckless = OP?

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

To be fair that isn't necessarily a problem with the faction, as much as their are now enough models above the curve to kind of ignore the faction "weakness" that Gremlins on a whole tend to be on the shorter side stat wise (but that is kind of true of every faction now imo).

Oh I agree. but you look at a faction mostly through what you see on the table and not bad units that are stuck somewhere in the book

[Kogan Style]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

It was also only 2 gremlin players in the top 50, out of a total of 12 Gremlin players at the UKGT2016. Not really dominating. 2 firsts, 1 second and 1 3rd in the last 10 ranked events in the uk is right on the average

I would have reckless (and drunk and ) give fast, but thats about the only change I would think was needed.

 

A mono Zipp player was 33rd @wobbly_goggy

[daniello_s]

16 minutes ago, trikk said:

Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say. If you look across factions, the average wp is around 5 unless you count Enforcers - up where... you also go to 6-7

(Sammy, Burt, Gracie, Francois, Fingers, Pigapult, Old Major) so Wp is low on basic minions (and its usually 1 point difference anyways).

Which means the heavy-lifting must be done by more expensive models so I'm not surprised that for some models Wp goes up to 6-7. It's kind of normal, no? 

 

20 minutes ago, trikk said:

Francois is Df4 with 10 Wds. Francisco is Df5 with 8 Wds for a stone more (or 2 stone more and HtW). I`m not saying he has too little or too much wounds. but 10 Wds for 7SS is not a low Wound count. Gracie, Old Major and the Sow have 10-12 Wds IIRC. Thats a low Wound count? Merris has 6 Wds which is kind of average for a non-tank 6SS (Pathfinder has 6 Wds, Austringer has 6 Wds, Torakage have 6 Wds, Angelica has 6 Wds) she`s not lower than the rest, she`s average.

Francois can do damage, Francisco can do damage, push his friendly models and can buff even master to the crazy limit. You know what? I think Francisco is more versatile than Francois.

Gracie, Old Major and Sow - you pay a bit for these luxury (which is correct way of course). By the way, Gracie has 8 wounds and anything which negates armour can drop her quite fast. Again she is one of the few resilient models in the faction. Old Major and The Sow have low Df. When Old Major is (kind of protected) by HtW and an access to damage prevention, The Sow doesn't and with this low Df she is easy to be hit and being dropped below half of her wounds when she looses her  for attack/damage flips. 

 

 

 

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

A mono Zipp player was 33rd @wobbly_goggy

Cheers there were a bunch of unknown factions on the rankings site, so I just discounted them 

Just to say

gremlins don't have low wp. Or below avergae stats (as long as you discount Ht as a stat) What they do have is an absence of defence tech. There is not very much hard to wound, incorporeal, armour or hard to kill in the faction. (not none, but not very much). 

[trikk]

Just now, daniello_s said:

Which means the heavy-lifting must be done by more expensive models so I'm not surprised that for some models Wp goes up to 6-7. It's kind of normal, no? 

Francois can do damage, Francisco can do damage, push his friendly models and can buff even master to the crazy limit. You know what? I think Francisco is more versatile than Francois.

Gracie, Old Major and Sow - you pay a bit for these luxury (which is correct way of course). By the way, Gracie has 8 wounds and anything which negates armour can drop her quite fast. Again she is one of the few resilient models in the faction. Old Major and The Sow have low Df. When Old Major is (kind of protected) by HtW and an access to damage prevention, The Sow doesn't and with this low Df she is easy to be hit and being dropped below half of her wounds when she looses her  for attack/damage flips. 

Well, name the often used 4Wp model (that are not Bayou Gremlins and Stuffed Piglets).

Francisco is a great model but we were talking about Wound count so that argument is invalid. Francisco himself is a topic for a totally different debate.

You forgot to mention Sow and Gracie have Eat You Fill

 

So Gremlins have low Wp, low Wound count but the models with low Wp and low Wd count are not taken in most competetive crews (and you still get access to reckless).

[Nosilloc]

If gremlins are so good why don't we have a nightmare crew yet?

What about black blood? Or that stupid guild austringer(? The one with a bird).

The entire ressers faction changes the way you play a game vs how you play against anyone else.

Gremlins are very squishy so reckless comes at a price. In my opinion this is a case of new players facing an experienced gremlin player which always makes anything they play seem op. Surprised they aren't complaining about brewmaster. I think if the experienced player was playing ressers that we would be seeing a bunch of posts about summoning being broken.

[Adran]

Nightmare Whiskey Golem

(also only existed as a faction for 5 gencons)

[daniello_s]

3 minutes ago, trikk said:

Well, name the often used 4Wp model (that are not Bayou Gremlins and Stuffed Piglets).

Francisco is a great model but we were talking about Wound count so that argument is invalid. Francisco himself is a topic for a totally different debate.

You forgot to mention Sow and Gracie have Eat You Fill

 

So Gremlins have low Wp, low Wound count but the models with low Wp and low Wd count are not taken in most competetive crews (and you still get access to reckless).

Rooster Rider. 

Francois have more wounds because of the Dumb Luck trigger. 

Sow and Gracie must kill something to benefit from healing so it is not that automatic as you (I think) suggest.

 

 

 

[trikk]

1 minute ago, Nosilloc said:

If gremlins are so good why don't we have a nightmare crew yet?

What about black blood? Or that stupid guild austringer(? The one with a bird).

The entire ressers faction changes the way you play a game vs how you play against anyone else.

Gremlins are very squishy so reckless comes at a price. In my opinion this is a case of new players facing an experienced gremlin player which always makes anything they play seem op. Surprised they aren't complaining about brewmaster. I think if the experienced player was playing ressers that we would be seeing a bunch of posts about summoning being broken.

Austringers since the change to 12" rarely see play and if they do its to be a scheme running proxy.

Ressers are ranked the lowest in factions with Guild right now across 3 rankings.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

Cheers there were a bunch of unknown factions on the rankings site, so I just discounted them 

Just to say

gremlins don't have low wp. Or below avergae stats (as long as you discount Ht as a stat) What they do have is an absence of defence tech. There is not very much hard to wound, incorporeal, armour or hard to kill in the faction. (not none, but not very much). 

This actually isn`t true. Incorporeal is like in two factions. Hard to Wound is in one. 

Hard to Kill isn`t really that below average (especially if you count models that are taken in same crews) and they have a ton of defensive triggers.

[Nosilloc]

Was that for winning something? I thought it was just something put out.

i was more referring to the whole crew for winning the whole event like dark carnival, wild ones, or crazy cat lady.

[trikk]

1 minute ago, daniello_s said:

Rooster Rider. 

Francois have more wounds because of the Dumb Luck trigger. 

Sow and Gracie must kill something to benefit from healing so it is not that automatic as you (I think) suggest.

Nobody plays Rooster Riders since the change (and if they would that would be a valid argument)

[Adran]

 

Just now, Nosilloc said:

Was that for winning something? I thought it was just something put out.

i was more referring to the whole crew for winning the whole event like dark carnival, wild ones, or crazy cat lady.

On'y Wild ones was for winning something. (and Tara's general existance) The others were just general this would be cool. 

[daniello_s]

5 minutes ago, trikk said:

Nobody plays Rooster Riders since the change (and if they would that would be a valid argument)

I played it on the local tournament. And a friend of mine played them too.

Seems me and my buddy are nobody.

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

I played it on the local tournament. And a friend of mine played them too.

Seems me and my buddy are nobody.

And a guy in Poland played 5 games in a tournament with Brewmaster. Does that make him viable?

[Dogmantra]

I think Claim Jump makes Reckless a bit silly, but otherwise I think it's mostly okay. No one is spamming Hog Whisperers or Survivors and winning all their games because of the inherent power of Reckless. Only about 50% of the models in Gremlins with Reckless are considered to be really strong models. If GG2018 has a rebalance of the schemes I imagine Reckless will lose a lot of power because I can't see Claim Jump staying in its current form.

 

Defenses debate -  Generally models have pretty good defenses then one silly low stat, it's not really a consistent pattern like "low Wp". So you have Francois's Df4, Sammy's 6 Wds, Piglets' Wp3 etc. Sometimes you really pay for the defenses (e.g. Fingers who is ridiculous in all aspects but is 1/5 of your crew and has no attacks). Burt is probably the most egregious exception, although Df5 isn't great.

@trikk - Wp4 or lower models that see use: Taxidermists, War Pig (yes I have seen it hired - it literally won the tournament I'm thinking of) & Skeeters

 

[Ludvig]

42 minutes ago, Nosilloc said:

If gremlins are so good why don't we have a nightmare crew yet?

Because that has nothing to do with being good or not?

[daniello_s]

8 minutes ago, trikk said:

And a guy in Poland played 5 games in a tournament with Brewmaster. Does that make him viable?

Nope, but my argument invalidated yours. 

[Ludvig]

Burt doesn't really use his defense because you meatshield him and squeel is such an amazing trigger that the notion of gremlins not having defensive tech seems odd to me.

[trikk]

Just now, daniello_s said:

Nope, but my argument invalidated yours. 

We can keep trying to catch each other by words doing a "you forgot Poland" but this doesn`t bring anything new to the discussion.

 

"Rooster Riders are not optimal choices in the Gremlin faction"

[Dogmantra]

Oh I forgot to mention my one exception to thinking Reckless is mostly fine. Francois, because Reckless in combination with Companion is absurd. There's a reason that you can only chain activate two models in 2nd edition, and trivially getting 6AP in a row with no opponent chance to respond is just silly (up to 8AP if you're willing to put some work in), especially on models like Francois. I think personally his Companion should go back to the old 1e style of being Companion: Kin, but a different change would be Reckless Melee, like melee expert but it costs a wound.

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Burt doesn't really use his defense because you meatshield him and squeel is such an amazing trigger that the notion of gremlins not having defensive tech seems odd to me.

Right. I'm not sure if you're replying directly to me or not, but generally my point is that Gremlins do have good defenses, they just also tend to have one or two weak spots which are usually pretty nasty. Burt is again the exception because he's silly in all respects.

[daniello_s]

So please don't use argument 'nobody is' in the future.

I fully agree with you that there are models which you'll see often on the table than others but this is situation in every faction. The question is if those are OP and it seems that our gaming society is divided in this opinion.

[Ludvig]

7 hours ago, daniello_s said:

As for some models outshining others - isn't it a case in every faction? Would you like to trim those too?

I wouldn't mind some trimming here and there. Francisco, Loco and austringers all took hits awhile back despite guild in general doing terrible in tournaments (except for a single player). Lucius got a bit o a booat because it was needed, interbal faction balance. Not sure why they hit Lenny who didn't seem to be too problematic.

Francois being able to reckless, walk up and focus to more or less guarantee a massive hit is also completely sick in my eyes, to a large extent due to reckless.

[Ludvig]

@Dogmantra was replying moatly to whomever said Burt was easiky killed and gremlins had no defenses just because they don't have hard to wound.

[Ludvig]

I'm not saying gremlins need to be Cuddled through the ground I just think there are a lot of problems with their internal balance and I think reckless is probably too strong. Gg-17 may highlight this but the truth is that interact heavy pools have always been around, if anything I think gg-16 and the prevalence of hunting party at that time made them fly under the radar because spamming their cheap stuff was risky.

On the original topic of reckless being OP (compared to other abilities): Just imagine roosters loosing any other of their front of card abilities but keeping reckless. Would they have stayed popular or faded away like they did now?

[daniello_s]

Personally I think Hunting Party sould be as 'Always Available' scheme which would made all low cost-high number of models bit more challenging.

As for Roosters - I'm kind of surprised why they disappeared so suddenly as IMO they are still very good models. High Wk and 1AP charge makes them great enemy scheme-catchers and with their high Wk they can do schemes reasonably good as well. I think people just got used to have them this Reckless and now they can't (don't want to) play them anymore.