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Reckless = OP?


Bazlord_Prime

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So I waded half-cocked into a FB thread in which a few people were stating that Gremlin "Reckless" is crazy OP, and that the entire Gremlin faction needs to be reworked. 

Thoughts? I'm not an experienced player, and I only play Gremlins, so on second thought I'm not really qualified to hold a respectable opinion on this.

I had though, for the record, thought that it's not like all other Factions have no tricks of their own, and if it was really such a problem for the game as a whole, Wyrd would've done something about it by now.

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It's typical moaning of some people that Gremlins are OP. How long are they on the stage? And have anyone seen them dominating tournament scene? I don't think they need re-work. They have their strengths and they have their weaknesses but they are not OP for sure.

I think the main issue here is that with current GG2017 Gremlins simply perform very good but who knows what will happen with GG2018 so I would advice to be careful with any kind of 'trimming' the faction.

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7 hours ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

So I waded half-cocked into a FB thread in which a few people were stating that Gremlin "Reckless" is crazy OP, and that the entire Gremlin faction needs to be reworked. 

Thoughts? I'm not an experienced player, and I only play Gremlins, so on second thought I'm not really qualified to hold a respectable opinion on this.

I had though, for the record, thought that it's not like all other Factions have no tricks of their own, and if it was really such a problem for the game as a whole, Wyrd would've done something about it by now.

Yes, it is crazy overpowered, which is why they are careful about which models they put it on. I can't think of any model that wouldn't give up any ability on its card to have it replaced with Reckless (Except Swift, that's just plain better).

But

I don't think the gremlin faction needs to be reworked. They have balanced the factions around this sort of thing. Gremlins themselves aren't overpowered. They can eb powerful, and do crazy things, but typically at a cost. 

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4 minutes ago, Adran said:

I don't think the gremlin faction needs to be reworked. They have balanced the factions around this sort of thing. Gremlins themselves aren't overpowered. They can eb powerful, and do crazy things, but typically at a cost. 

Hear, hear!

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I for one find reckless a little to good on some of the models that currently have it. The post on AWP was mostly concerned with the reckless models so vastly outshining aynthing that isn't reckless and that it's affecting the internal balance of gremlins but probably balance as a whole. AP wins games and gremlins are drowning in AP.

Their cost is usually wounds and they are annoyingly efficient at regaining those. Just look at lightning bugs: it's rare to find that efficient healing on a fairly aggressive 5ss model that also has three ap at a whim. Dirty cheater in a faction where a lot of upgrade carriers has reckless is also just bad design to me, if wounds were supposed to be the commodity you traded it seems wrong to give an upgrade that fixes that automatically.

Burt Jebsen is also insane with his abilities and that many ap. I think a lot of what makes Nellie dominate games right now is that little guy, he seems way too good for a 7ss model.

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10 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I for one find reckless a little to good on some of the models that currently have it. The post on AWP was mostly concerned with the reckless models so vastly outshining aynthing that isn't reckless and that it's affecting the internal balance of gremlins but probably balance as a whole. AP wins games and gremlins are drowning in AP.

Their cost is usually wounds and they are annoyingly efficient at regaining those. Just look at lightning bugs: it's rare to find that efficient healing on a fairly aggressive 5ss model that also has three ap at a whim. Dirty cheater in a faction where a lot of upgrade carriers has reckless is also just bad design to me, if wounds were supposed to be the commodity you traded it seems wrong to give an upgrade that fixes that automatically.

Burt Jebsen is also insane with his abilities and that many ap. I think a lot of what makes Nellie dominate games right now is that little guy, he seems way too good for a 7ss model.

Focus on Bugs and Slop Haulers. Without those healing is mostly gone. As you said, Bug is aggressive and therefore is in front line. Kill it.

Burt is very good but is not that resilient. My opponents kills he on regular basis so even when he has DC attached to him. IMO he could easily cost 8SS at the moment and still be very good choice but no more than that.

As for some models outshining others - isn't it a case in every faction? Would you like to trim those too?

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It feels like most Gremlin players (who admittedly may be biased), know how fragile their crews are, getting a lot of AP to begin with, but often having few models left near the end of the game.

And non-Gremlin players might overlook that inherent fragility, and just get the Reckless-hate stuck in their craw.

Just about any model in Malifaux has the potential to make you roll your eyes in resignation due to some crazy ability or other. With regards to the healing/Reckless combo, you just learn to kill the healing. E.g. you're going against Arcanists, bring Armour penetration. Going against Rezzers, bring Taelor. If you're going against Gremlins, bring a sniper to whack that Slop Hauler/Lightning Bug. Better yet, Blasts, to hit all the suckers bunched up around the Hauler/Bug as well.

Right?

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Bugs aren't as problematic when played recklessly up front as when they are taken by Som'er as way too cheap healbots that attack one of their own with the auto mask from a skeeter that coincidently lets Som'er summon by causing two wounds to a gremlin, the exact amount that the bug heals on everyone within a pretty respectable radius.

The fact that many discussions on models sucking in gremlins use the humble bayou as a counterpoint and ask "why would I pay 5ss for two ap when I get three ap for 3ss?" is also worrysome because it's a fair point.

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2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The fact that many discussions on models sucking in gremlins use the humble bayou as a counterpoint and ask "why would I pay 5ss for two ap when I get three ap for 3ss?" is also worrysome because it's a fair point.

But you can't go "drunk and reckless" all day long without having a healer by your side. A good opponent will try to kill the hauler or bug first anyway. And if you don't have a healer near you, you can use drunk and reckless just once.

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4 hours ago, daniello_s said:

And have anyone seen them dominating tournament scene?

Last UK GT 2nd and 3rd place.

We had a 23 people two day tournament. Places 1 and 2.

Gremlin players did very good results at the ITC.

 

Are they unbeatable? No. But you can also win a chess game where you have 2 bishops and 8 pawns and your opponent has 3 bishops and 7 pawns ;)

 

Reckless should be once per game and Somer should have Do It Like Dis changed to allow a card discard before you add the suit.

 

Most competetive Nellie lists include Burt and Tavish. If you think about Hog Whisperer as a 5SS reckless model non-Gremlin factions would serioisly consider it.

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I'm not trying to troll or anything just trying to understand.

What happened that people suddenly start to complain? Wyrd hasn't changed the faction in any new way? New options for every faction with every new wave and the annual GG adaption - is that the reason? 

I don't understand the fuss, sorry :(

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1 hour ago, trikk said:

Last UK GT 2nd and 3rd place.

We had a 23 people two day tournament. Places 1 and 2.

Gremlin players did very good results at the ITC.

And before? Maybe some good players started to play this factions hence good results? Before I saw Neverborn dominating tournament scene and there was no panic raised then :)

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Reckless should be once per game and Somer should have Do It Like Dis changed to allow a card discard before you add the suit.

If Reckless should have limit then it should be like 'no healing the turn model use it' so we would avoid 'free use' of Reckless by models who can heal themselves or have DC attached to.

And Somer has to cast it first and then discard the card with proper suit so sometimes it comes with cost of two cards to get suit - not bad I think.

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Most competetive Nellie lists include Burt and Tavish. If you think about Hog Whisperer as a 5SS reckless model non-Gremlin factions would serioisly consider it.

Were they used before that effectively before Nellie came around? No? SO maybe there is something wrong with Nellie instead of them? ;)

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3 minutes ago, qoob said:

I'm not trying to troll or anything just trying to understand.

What happened that people suddenly start to complain? Wyrd hasn't changed the faction in any new way? New options for every faction with every new wave and the annual GG adaption - is that the reason? 

I don't understand the fuss, sorry :(

Neither do I. It wasn't problem before (except Rooster Riders which were stupidly good with Reckless) but now there is sudden panic and outcry. What has changed since? 

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I think that it's a grass is always greener kind of issue to an extent. Also I would be very upset as a gremlin player if reckless was changed to once per game because honestly then we lose a lot of what makes the faction special. Tbh I don't like any cuddle on reckless since I think it's uncalled for but at least this is the least bad alternative and I wouldn't necessarily quit if it shifted to this.

Something like we take an extra wound if we use it multiple turns in a row (cap of 3 damage per turn) would be okay (but still rough). Something like that would be cool because Lenny could see play again reducing wounds we take on the reckless bubble etc. Models with super low wound counts like surviors could get something like "always reckless - always only take one damage for reckless" to help make them viable and have a niche (Raphael starts looking good 2). It would also make us use what our factions best at... Healing. So taking one slop or one lightning bug won't cut it anymore. I prefer a cuddle like this because it doesn't change the feel of the faction that much but it plays into us being reckless and needing some moonshine to recuperate. 

Also It's interesting that when a Gremlin player wins it gets stated that reckless is OP but when one of the usual best factions win it's just obvious.....I mean honestly we don't have great tanks most of our "good" models are glass cannons. I also think right now gg 17 is super interact based so obviously it helps Gremlins who have lots of ap. Lastly the majority of what makes us fast is reckless...the only real access 2 fast is Sparks, iron skeeters, and... Aionus. So without reckless we kind of just suck since most our models die to snipers all day long. 

Lastly I don't like any cuddle to the gremlin faction because the community is quite small due to them being a finesse faction. As a new player they are quite hard to get into because it's hard to take care of a 95% fragile army. I would prefer more new gremlin players rather than have newbies avoid Gremlins because "they got Cuddled and explode to pieces when you look at them." I'd rather take care of the 99% of gremlin players than make it harder for the very top. Also I think it's funny how reckless is the issue and some players like Joel take Ronin paying an extra SS each. If reckless was the only reason Gremlins we're winning then why would he take any of those. 

 

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34 minutes ago, trikk said:

Last UK GT 2nd and 3rd place.

It was also only 2 gremlin players in the top 50, out of a total of 12 Gremlin players at the UKGT2016. Not really dominating. 2 firsts, 1 second and 1 3rd in the last 10 ranked events in the uk is right on the average

I would have reckless (and drunk and ) give fast, but thats about the only change I would think was needed.

 

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26 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Neither do I. It wasn't problem before (except Rooster Riders which were stupidly good with Reckless) but now there is sudden panic and outcry. What has changed since? 

There's always been the complaints, they just quite down and start back up every now and again. 

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6 minutes ago, Durza said:

There's always been the complaints, they just quite down and start back up every now and again. 

So it is kind of 'normal' occurrence :)

I'm open for discussion but I'd like people complaining about something to see also 'cons' of the faction (general low Wp, lack of HtK/HtW/Armour on models, low Wd count) and offer some good alternative for changes of the 'pros', not just 'gut it and it will be fine because I say so' ;)

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Adran said:

It was also only 2 gremlin players in the top 50, out of a total of 12 Gremlin players at the UKGT2016. Not really dominating. 2 firsts, 1 second and 1 3rd in the last 10 ranked events in the uk is right on the average

I would have reckless (and drunk and ) give fast, but thats about the only change I would think was needed.

 

OK. Gremlins have highest tournament point avg in UK, US and PL (if we discount 1 tournament with C7).

 

Also I never mentioned they are unbeatable. A weak gremlin player will still lose to a good non-Gremlin player. But they are definitely the strongest faction.

 

1 minute ago, daniello_s said:

So it is kind of 'normal' occurrence :)

I'm open for discussion but I'd like people complaining about something to see also 'cons' of the faction (general low Wp, lack of HtK/HtW/Armour on models, low Wd count) and offer some good alternative for changes of the 'pros', not just 'gut it and it will be fine because I say so' ;)

Gremlins don`t have low Wp. If you look outside of Ressers, nobody has a lot of HtW. If you look at other factions you don`t have THAT many less models with HtK.

Francois for 7 SS had 10 Wds. Burt has 8 Wds for 7SS? Merris has 6 Wds for 6 SS. This is not a low Wound count.

 

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Personally imo the things that most define the gremlin faction are

1) Hurting out own models for bonuses 

2) Controlled random chance (usually seen in the ability that you may flip a card and 1 suit is something bad or 4 triggers where 2 are good, 1 is okay and the last is bad)

I would like reckless to remain, but I do think it might be a bit too strong making Gremlins a bit too flexible for a fairly low cost. 

 

Personally what I would like to see for 3E is reckless changed to.

This model suffers damage equal to the turn / 2 to gain fast.

So at the start of the game reckless is more or less the same, but towards the end it might be reckless to go reckless ;) This also fixes the issue of a fast reckless burt

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5 minutes ago, trikk said:

Gremlins don`t have low Wp. If you look outside of Ressers, nobody has a lot of HtW. If you look at other factions you don`t have THAT many less models with HtK.

Francois for 7 SS had 10 Wds. Burt has 8 Wds for 7SS? Merris has 6 Wds for 6 SS. This is not a low Wound count.

 

Except few models average Wp is on 4 or 5 - not great IMO but this is OK as it balances faction. And I'm sorry that some models have higher Wp. I agree - all should have stiff Wp of 4 :)

Francois has Df4 so if you target him with anything he suddenly has to use SS to stay long enough to trigger Dumb Luck and survive. And once he uses Stilts, he looses his extra resilience. How much wounds would you like to have on him with his Df? 6?

Burt is one of the toughest guys in faction? How many others do you have there?

Merris has 6Wds - is that a lot? Really? And if she uses Reckless it drops by 1 each time. Do you really think she is that tough to be killed? Really? She is great scheme runner and that's all.

 

I don't know, maybe all models in Gremlins factions should have Wp4, Wd of no more than 6, no reckless and Bayou Two Cards and cost of 6+? How about that? 

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Just now, daniello_s said:

Except few models average Wp is on 4 or 5 - not great IMO but this is OK as it balances faction. And I'm sorry that some models have higher Wp. I agree - all should have stiff Wp of 4 :)

Francois has Df4 so if you target him with anything he suddenly has to use SS to stay long enough to trigger Dumb Luck and survive. And once he uses Stilts, he looses his extra resilience. How much wounds would you like to have on him with his Df? 6?

Burt is one of the toughest guys in faction? How many others do you have there?

Merris has 6Wds - is that a lot? Really? And if she uses Reckless it drops by 1 each time. Do you really think she is that tough to be killed? Really? She is great scheme runner and that's all.

 

I don't know, maybe all models in Gremlins factions should have Wp4, Wd of no more than 6, no reckless and Bayou Two Cards and cost of 6+? How about that? 

Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say. If you look across factions, the average wp is around 5 unless you count Enforcers - up where... you also go to 6-7

(Sammy, Burt, Gracie, Francois, Fingers, Pigapult, Old Major) so Wp is low on basic minions (and its usually 1 point difference anyways).

Francois is Df4 with 10 Wds. Francisco is Df5 with 8 Wds for a stone more (or 2 stone more and HtW). I`m not saying he has too little or too much wounds. but 10 Wds for 7SS is not a low Wound count. Gracie, Old Major and the Sow have 10-12 Wds IIRC. Thats a low Wound count? Merris has 6 Wds which is kind of average for a non-tank 6SS (Pathfinder has 6 Wds, Austringer has 6 Wds, Torakage have 6 Wds, Angelica has 6 Wds) she`s not lower than the rest, she`s average.

 

So to sum  it up, the models that see play have average or higher Wounds, some have HtK (Burt, Gracie), high Wp (or are cheap disposible activations/summons)

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2 minutes ago, trikk said:

Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say. If you look across factions, the average wp is around 5 unless you count Enforcers - up where... you also go to 6-7

(Sammy, Burt, Gracie, Francois, Fingers, Pigapult, Old Major) so Wp is low on basic minions (and its usually 1 point difference anyways).

Francois is Df4 with 10 Wds. Francisco is Df5 with 8 Wds for a stone more (or 2 stone more and HtW). I`m not saying he has too little or too much wounds. but 10 Wds for 7SS is not a low Wound count. Gracie, Old Major and the Sow have 10-12 Wds IIRC. Thats a low Wound count? Merris has 6 Wds which is kind of average for a non-tank 6SS (Pathfinder has 6 Wds, Austringer has 6 Wds, Torakage have 6 Wds, Angelica has 6 Wds) she`s not lower than the rest, she`s average.

 

So to sum  it up, the models that see play have average or higher Wounds, some have HtK (Burt, Gracie), high Wp (or are cheap disposible activations/summons)

To be fair that isn't necessarily a problem with the faction, as much as their are now enough models above the curve to kind of ignore the faction "weakness" that Gremlins on a whole tend to be on the shorter side stat wise (but that is kind of true of every faction now imo).

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