Neverborn - rate our masters

[catbat07]

So, lately quite a few of our mastered have gotten buffed or Cuddled, ie: Lucius, Zoraida and the Dreamer. Especially with Titania out at the same time, where do you think all our masters rank? I'm of the opinion that:

Tier one: Dreamer, Collodi

Tier two: Pandora, Lucius, Zoraida

Tier three: Lilith, J. Lynch, Titania.

 

want to know your thoughts. Should Pandy/Lucius be tier one? 

[necroon]

Tier one: Lilith, Collodi, Pandora

Tier two: Lucius, Zoraida

Tier three: , J. Lynch, Titania.

I don't quite rate Lucius as Tier 1 but he is really potent and adaptable. I see my opinion of him changing based on the Gaining Grounds content year-to-year. Pandora is sort of between Tier One and Tier Two for me at the moment but I rounded up. 

[catbat07]

Lilith in tier one? Interesting. Also, no Dreamer?

[Vorschlag]

I think a lot of it comes down to your familiarity and thus skill level and comfort level with a particular masters.
So here's mine based entirely on experience

Tier One: Zoraida and Collodi - (Zoraida is my most competitive master followed by Collodi)
Tier Two: Pandora and Titania - (I haven't played these two as much as Zoraida or Collodi but I'm comfortable with my "base skill level with them"
Tier Three: Lucius - (one of my favorite masters but my skill level is still mediocre with him - i still make mistakes which lead to loses or draws)
Unrated: Dreamer and Lilith because I haven't used them yet and Lynch because I have no plans to ever own him or use him (unless we see a nightmare cry with illuminated that don't look...... like that.)

[hakuda]

I find these discussions quite interesting.  I can't comment as I have played no full games (only the first 2 missions in the starter box, although I've followed the game and bought the rule books from first edition) but there does seem to be an awful lot of subjective viewpoint on these questions.

I wonder if the player skill as well as their local meta-game influence the decision.

E.g., I've read a fair bit about how powerful Lilith is, but is she a lower tier because she's weaker, or that her play style is easier to counter by experienced players?  Does it matter how she's played?  Is she a beatstick or board controller?

Pandora seems to be really frustrating to play against, but does that mean she's better?

Also, I guess crew composition and utilising the schemes better can skew the results greatly.

I'm not really making a point as such! More that Malifaux is so complex and has so many variables, it makes these discussions very difficult.

Having said that, I still love reading/hearing about these things.

[Math Mathonwy]

Tier 1: Collodi, Lilith

Tier 2: Dreamer, Zoraida, Pandora, Lynch, Titania

Tier 3: Lucius

Collodi is a powerhouse and Lilith is extremely versatile.

Pandora is great but has some bad match-ups which drops her a tier, IMO. Errata dropped Dreamer to tier 2 and he also has some dangerous match-ups. Zoraida loses out to Collodi a bit, I feel, but the Doll keeps her relevant. Lynch is pretty great at what he does but he is squishy and somewhat limited. Titania is very good in certain Strat + Schemes combos but outside of those, less so.

Finally, Lucius is tier 3 only because Collodi, Dreamer, and Zoraida all do the same thing and are better at doing it - Lucius isn't bad after the errata and maybe he should be there on tier 2 with the rest.

[catbat07]

I definitely agree that different masters have different ratings for different people - after all, everyone plays Malifaux differently. I still don't understand Tier one Lilith however: while she has a lot of flexibility and quite a few powerful abilities, I just don't think she compares with Collodi, lucius or Dreamer in terms of winning a game. Collodi is amazing because of the obeys, 4AP and excellent model options, Lucius because of his Auras/pulses and the flexebility he gives you in game. Dreamer is very good because of the easy out activation and amazing summoning. He's still definitely tier one, as though the cuddle cut down on his raw summoning, he is still a perfectly good master in that regard, and perhaps more importantly, can bring three 2SS models. 

[catbat07]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Finally, Lucius is tier 3 only because Collodi, Dreamer, and Zoraida all do the same thing and are better at doing it - Lucius isn't bad after the errata and maybe he should be there on tier 2 with the rest.

How are Zoraida and Dreamer better than Lucius? Zoraida is way less flexible, both in terms of hiring pool and game play, and you can't really compare Lucius to the Dreamer as they do very different things in game. I think people underestimate Lucius a lot, as his abilities at first seem very similar, as though he only does one thing. However, having so many ways to do the same thing can lead to some spectacular turns,  allowing you to gain VP with ease. I know that whenever I play Collodi, I play him primarily as an obey master,  and Lucius can do this just as well, if not better.

[daniello_s]

14 hours ago, catbat07 said:

So, lately quite a few of our mastered have gotten buffed or Cuddled, ie: Lucius, Zoraida and the Dreamer. Especially with Titania out at the same time, where do you think all our masters rank? I'm of the opinion that:

Tier one: Dreamer, Collodi

Tier two: Pandora, Lucius, Zoraida

Tier three: Lilith, J. Lynch, Titania.

 

want to know your thoughts. Should Pandy/Lucius be tier one? 

Lilith tier 3? Really???

[Adran]

All four of the masters can turn their AP into AP for other models. (they can do other things, such as the dreamers summoning upgrade, but if you want a master to transfer AP, Neverborn are over subscribed). 

Zoraida is not that much smaller hiring pool thanks to enthralled and bayou sevants , I've not checked recently, but I think she physically has more choice on different models than Lucius.

So you are comparing  using a 7 to do any action. Can target anything (enemies included) but can't make a model attack more than once,

to a 4 to give minion or nightmare a 6"push +a (1)ml action (or fast on a trigger, or condition removal and then either the push and attack or fast)

to a 5 to give a minion  a 3" push and a 1 action once (trigger to replace push with focus or healing). Also can let a model pass a horror duel to get a (1) action

to  Minion peon or puppet takes a (1) action with positives to duels .

 

Zoraida doesn't give as good a quality AP out, but she can give it to anyone, even your foes, which is a lot tricksier than any of the others. If you want attacks, then the dreamer or Collodi are probably better than Lucius due to the not being limited on the number they can do. Its hard to say what Lucius does that he is best at. Almost any situation you would be better of with one of the other 3, its just which one at which time

 

 

 

 

[Ludvig]

Comparing Collodi to Lucius always turns out in Collodi's favour for me. It can zoom around the battlefield from the defensive trigger and cause damage while stealing enemy ap. If the enemy tries to hurt you you automatically push away after resolving, if they lock you down you use one of your own models to target and get to push out. The attack not having a gun icon also makes it really scary. You alao have the extra ap and either effigy buffs for a bunch of models or condition-stealing sillyness. Collodi is much more flexible in my opinion.

[4thstringer]

Lucius tier One. 

There are other NB masters?

[Da Git]

47 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Lucius tier One. 

There are other NB masters?

I thought it was Nekima killing Lucius turn one...  Or is that just Tyrant Tier?

[Sharp_GT]

The higher I rank a master is usually based on them being very powerful in their niche, or being so good that they don't get narrowed into a niche. Flexibility is an asset. Also I'll rank someone differently based on how easily they can be countered by play vs needing specific models.

Tier S: Nekima

Tier 1: Collodi, Dreamer

Both of these guys have incredible flexibility, based on hiring pool or summoning pool. They can both get activation control very easily, and have access to an easy obey. They also both bring powerful actions of their own, dishing out consistent damage, or having powerful tricks. There's also something to be said for how much easier decisions are with this pair

Tier 2: Lillith, Pandora, Titania

All three of these are very good at what they do, but will fall apart in strat/scheme pools that are unfavorable, or if the opponent happens to bring certain models. In the right situations they are unstoppable

Tier 3: Lynch, Zoraida, Lucius

This bunch are ranked low for different reasons. Lynch is a one trick pony, often demanding his crew to be set up a certain way. While you get a lot of mileage out of just killing everything, you're screwed if your opponent has a way to stop conditions. Both zoraida and lucius can be very flexible, but they're strength lies in giving away their AP to the crew; if you're crew starts getting killed off or put into bad positions they can't do much on their own. Also their obey effects require moderate to high cards, which just makes them riskier than collodi or dreamer's version of the same.

[HegemonyKrcket]

Tier One: Collodi, Lilith

They don't have any really bad Strat/Scheme match ups.  They don't really have any "hard counter" match ups with other masters.  And you can get an insane amount of work out of their AP.

Tier Two: Dreamer, Lucius, Pandora, Titania

All of these have some pretty bad match-ups by either Strats/Schemes or opponent Masters.  They all three get a lot of work out of the AP, so when they're not having to run uphill they can be incredible.

Tier Three: Lynch, Zoraida

I love both of these masters, but they're just not as effective as their compatriots.  Lynch just isn't flexible enough (in Neverborn) for me to take in a tournament.  And Zoraida doesn't get enough work out of her AP.  She's got a lot of stuff on her card and upgrades that rarely, if ever, comes into play.  

[necroon]

14 hours ago, catbat07 said:

Lilith in tier one? Interesting. Also, no Dreamer?

Oh you know what I had him on there and must have deleted the text by mistake! I have him as Tier 2: Partially because of my level of skill with him and partially because of my Meta which has a lot of masters that I don't play well into with Dreamer. I totally get when / why people rate him as Tier 1, however. 

[catbat07]

8 hours ago, Adran said:

Zoraida doesn't give as good a quality AP out, but she can give it to anyone, even your foes, which is a lot tricksier than any of the others. If you want attacks, then the dreamer or Collodi are probably better than Lucius due to the not being limited on the number they can do. Its hard to say what Lucius does that he is best at. Almost any situation you would be better of with one of the other 3, its just which one at which time

Hmmm. definitely given me food for thought. Still, I can't say that I think Lucius doesn't have his place in our arsenal. The positive flips he grants alone are very powerful, and he has a lot of flexibility in how he moves/obeys his own models. Maybe he isn't tier one, but I'd still put him in the top 4/5. 

 

1 hour ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

Tier One: Collodi, Lilith

They don't have any really bad Strat/Scheme match ups.  They don't really have any "hard counter" match ups with other masters.  And you can get an insane amount of work out of their AP.

while I totally see Collodi as tier one, I'm interested in this tier one Lilith business - would love to know your thoughts.

[ObliterationPopsicle]

I'd probably sit Lilith in tier 1 on flexibility.

In my experience, her own AP are incredibly useful every turn, regardless of strat/schemes. She can manipulate better than most - move enemy models and her own crew, create terrain, see through terrain, and be a serious beat stick when needed. I've soloed her through a few tournaments now, and found that she can find a way through most problems an opponent will throw your way.

I also like having 8 cards to choose from at the start of each turn  (requires a friendly neighborhood pukeworm, but you were probably taking him anyway right? ).

She becomes more powerful as you get to know her. Of course this is true of most Masters, but I've not played another Master that can so totally change up how she is contributing turn to turn.

[Chris Rivers]

9 minutes ago, ObliterationPopsicle said:

I'd probably sit Lilith in tier 1 on flexibility.

In my experience, her own AP are incredibly useful every turn, regardless of strat/schemes. She can manipulate better than most - move enemy models and her own crew, create terrain, see through terrain, and be a serious beat stick when needed. I've soloed her through a few tournaments now, and found that she can find a way through most problems an opponent will throw your way.

I also like having 8 cards to choose from at the start of each turn  (requires a friendly neighborhood pukeworm, but you were probably taking him anyway right? ).

She becomes more powerful as you get to know her. Of course this is true of most Masters, but I've not played another Master that can so totally change up how she is contributing turn to turn.

This, I have a hard time not taking Lilith in any scheme pool.  She can do just about anything.

[catbat07]

Interesting. I love Lilith as a master, but don't know her quite like I know Collodi. This will require field testing!

[Vorschlag]

If I was rating solely on flexibility I'd rate Zoraida as top of the heap.

Repulsive can deny a number of schemes and strategies.

Wicked winds of fate can score and/or deny vp in a few schemes.

Obey can be used aggressively to paralyze or damage.

It can also be used to reposition or scheme again to score and/or deny v/p.

Doll can be used to control positioning or paralyze to score/deny vp.

It can also be used more aggressively for damage and other conditions.

Bewitch and crystal ball give you additional hand control but I under use these options.

Her additional flexibility comes from her hiring pool.

But again different players, different skill levels and play styles with different masters.

[catbat07]

1 hour ago, Vorschlag said:

If I was rating solely on flexibility I'd rate Zoraida as top of the heap.

Repulsive can deny a number of schemes and strategies.

Wicked winds of fate can score and/or deny vp in a few schemes.

Obey can be used aggressively to paralyze or damage.

It can also be used to reposition or scheme again to score and/or deny v/p.

Doll can be used to control positioning or paralyze to score/deny vp.

It can also be used more aggressively for damage and other conditions.

Bewitch and crystal ball give you additional hand control but I under use these options.

Her additional flexibility comes from her hiring pool.

But again different players, different skill levels and play styles with different masters.

I'm started to re-evaluate my thoughts on her. There are definitely ways around her, but I can see that flexibility now. 

[Vorschlag]

She was my first master and the master I am most comfortable in both my home factions, she's also the only neverborn master I play regularly who I have left with a 0 draws 0 loses in tournament (for the moment) in my local meta.

So my opinion has a huge bias, that said I'm half way through 2017 and still haven't gelled with gg2017 and havn't been running her but am using her in an upcoming event so she could certainly come off that pedestal soon if I don't nail it.

I suppose this the closest I come to being a "fan boy" or "cheer leader" for anything....

[feagaur]

I'd say looking through the thread and 'averaging' the tiers we're probably look something like

Tier 1: Lilith, Collodi, Dreamer

Tier 2: Lucius, Pandora, Zoraida, 

Tier 3: Titania, Lynch

Personally I'd argue swapping Collodi and Pandora. I've not played Collodi but have played against him and have never had a problem defeating him. Pandora on the other hand gives me the Heeby Jeebies.

My favourite master though would have to be Zoraida. She just seems to be the one you can have most fun with. All the other masters have certain styles other than probably Lilith, but even she can be a little predictable. If someone tells you they are playing Zoraida against you though, you have no idea what you're going to get other than shenanigans!

[Adran]

10 hours ago, catbat07 said:

Hmmm. definitely given me food for thought. Still, I can't say that I think Lucius doesn't have his place in our arsenal. The positive flips he grants alone are very powerful, and he has a lot of flexibility in how he moves/obeys his own models. Maybe he isn't tier one, but I'd still put him in the top 4/5. 

I've not put him on the table this year, so I can't really place him relative to the others (I've also not played enough GG2017 to be comfortable on how that affects different crews power levels), but he has a place. He is probably the most efficient schemer of the 4, but he is probably also the one that most needs a crew to support him.