Trouble with Summoners

[Harrower]

Hi all,  I find my biggest struggles in Malifaux games with Outcasts are against summoner crews.  It always seems that it's a losing battle, where they gain the advantage turn 3 or so, and it's a tough go for the rest of the game.  So-- any advice on crew selection with outcasts when you suspect you are facing a summoner?  What strategies do all of you employ?

[Virtus]

Play towards Strategy and Schemes. For example, I play against Gremlins a lot. If I see my opponent is playing Somer with summoning, I look for schemes that grant me VP by killing minions and peons.

[Pyrflamme]

Virtus is right, but another thing to consider is that summoning tends to be resource intensive in either high cards, soulstones, or both. If you pressure your opponent and force them to spend those resources in trying to defend key pieces, or just kill those key pieces it slows their gameplan of flooding the board. For example, there's a local player in my meta who plays Guild and Rezzers. When he brings Nicodem, I know he's going to have a Necropunk / Phillip and the Nanny card engine going in the background, plus Mortimer with Corpse Bloat. I'm probably going to be directing any ranged fire on my way in, then jumping on those pieces with my beaters. Nicodem has pretty poor defense, so even with Impossible to Wound, a min damage 3 beater can inflict a lot of pain (and drain a lot of soulstones). Identify those pieces and go after them with a vengeance.

Blasts are also a solution, as well as minding each summoner's particulars. Fighting Molly? Spread your dudes out. Going against Kirai? She needs to summon off other models, so pick stuff that's in optimal position for her and kill them.

In terms of Outcast specific answers, Taelor is a powerful answer with Welcome to Malifaux. If you don't want to buy the Viks box but were planning to spend at least $100 at the Gencon sale, there's an alt sculpt for her (Miss Deed). Freikorp Specialist can also wax corpse markers.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

bring Rusty Alice and A&D to turn his weak summons into aboms.

[Adran]

Most summoners have a high cost in Master Ap, on table resources and hand resources. 

Whilst its not easy to target Master AP (Unless you give out slow, paralysed, or actually just kill/bury them)(Ok maybe it is relatively easy to target Master AP), you can normally target the other two resources. 

There is not a simple guide to deal with a summoner because each summoner is different and so good ways to stop them vary. A Friekorps Specialist might be something that scares Nicodem due to its ability to remove corpse markers, but Molly and Kirai probably don't care. 

The most common requirement to summon is good cards. If they have to use their 10+ cards to summon extra models they aren't using them to hit you or avoid being hit by you. Sure, Nicodem can bring in over 20 soulstones worth of models each turn, but that will have cost him 3 severe cards (plus soulstone) (probably also plus set up from other models.) With the same cards Sonnia could have put 30-40 points of damage over an enemy force.

Outcasts can have ways to attack suits (Hannah), markers (Specialist), Actions (Jack daw with his curses, Abominations). They al;so have a wide range of summonign options themselves. 

Finally if you think you will struggle in turns 4 and 5, try and score your points in turns 2 and 3, and spend the last couple of turns just holding up the enemy crew to prevent them scoring. This might eb havign stronge forces preventing markers bein g dropped or claimed, or even engaging the enemy in their deployment so they can't escape to score their points. This will probably get your crew wiped out, but still let you win the game.  

 

 

[Harrower]

Ok,  so it sounds like it's all about pressure, and finding ways to apply it early in the game.  What I've witnessed is that by turn 3, I'm struggling in the attrition game.  My force has been weakened, and the summoner has been able to keep up with bringing new models onto the board.  I also need to better prioritize targets, to pull out the critical elements of his strategy before they establish themselves.

 

limitations on models is not an issue;  I have virtually the whole faction, plus the supporting pieces for masters from other crews.  

I think the main issue is I am taking crews that take too long to apply pressure,  so I need pieces that let me get in on turn 1/2 and start disrupting so that I can have more control.  Does that sound right?

 

 

[Pyrflamme]

Sounds about right. Snipers are a good start, taking a Trapper or Hans will let you pressure from activation one. A Focused Critical Strike or Kneecap shot can put your opponent into defensive mode quickly, and then you keep railing shots every turn. Taelor moves up under this covering fire, then activates Welcome To Malifaux. Cheaper models with Sh attacks that also have a option can deal with new summons either at range or up close, or can start popping off attacks at your opponent's stuff earlier. If your opponent wants corpse counters, the Specialist is a good way to go, or heck, it even has blasts on its weapon to deal with any swarm. I Pay Better is a good upgrade to have around with the Specialist since it can get a "free" Focus and put out a Focused and unFocused shot in one activation.

[DXXXVIII]

Tara-Alpha-Strike,

Hamelin-Alpha-Strike

Victoria-Alpha-Strike... Hmm...

[Viks_Masamune]

Summoners win games through AP generation and war-via-attrition.  As others have said, play your schemes and strats, and don;t get caught up in killing the chaff.  Focus on knocking out the those who summon creatures, or when thats not possible, who allow for a much easier time summoning by giving suits, healing, etc.

And yes, Taelor can wreck face with summoner crews as Pyre said.

[Jesy Blue]

When I know I'm against I summoner I play Hamelin, Stolen, hire two Performers, use I Paid Better, a bunch of rats. 

Slow play the first turn with the rats so when they are out activated, then activate performer, get focus, double walk to try to get in range for Sirens Call, activate other performer, get focus, double walk to get inrange for Sirens Call, Hamelin activates, Obey Performer, Focused Sirens Call on the summoner, Obey other Performer, Focused Sirens Call on the summoner,  then Pipes to drag them another walk in and now after 15 inches of walking should be well into all of your stuff and away from their stuff for them to be way too concerned with surviving being in the heart of your crew than summoning.  Normally I follow up with popping my own Stolen in their face to paralysis, but you flavor it from here how you wish.

I'll reiterate, do this only if you are positive it's a summoner, the build is not really meant for other stuff. And dragging like Ironsides or Lady Justice in your own face DOES NOT WORK!

This has worked thrice so far, twice on Molly and Karina once.

[beergod]

Misaki is another good choice as she can cause them to dump SS and cards to keep models alive.  Smoke and shadows to get big melee beaters into the backfield to take out Phillip and the Nanny. 

and as others have mentioned Taylor and snipers

 

[SIlazz]

@Jesy Blue that performer think Sounds good first time but sadly it is a once in a life time trick. Sirens call is  push and the summoner just need to be behinderte a Wall or a model and it wont work. (If He is Not incorporeal ).

 

@HarrowerI tend to play Levi vs most summoner(sometimes with rusty) to just turn his low wound summons into abos. (Most summoner hate abos right next to them bc of the 'no (0) and no build in suits for CA') 

Taelor is good but easy to counter. They just need to Walk someone into b2b with her and she cant charge. (But she is really good in the kirai Matchup.)

Hamelin can be good too  but then you wont make it past turn 3. 

Jack daw has a lack of ap's to kill much dudes just bc He tends to play pretty elite.

Viks can be good If you good a rly good alpha but the tend to lose the attrition turn3. Most times you wont be able to kill the summoner because most of them  (resser ones) tend to be rly resistant. 

 

 

[daniello_s]

I played with Levi against my friends, Mike and his Kirai many times and was struggling all the time. He used to summon something on turn 1 (outactivating me) and then played strats/schemes and disrupting mine. Kirai focused on killing my wounded models and summoned Gaki which is most effective summoning on turn 2+. I really hated her.  

[Zebo]

The "Welcome to Malifaux" action allows you to charge even when engaged. 

[SurreyLee]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

The "Welcome to Malifaux" action allows you to charge even when engaged. 

Yes, but a well placed model in base contact can stop charge lanes quite easily....

 

[Harrower]

I've gotten away from playing snipers-- that's a good thought.

 

 My most recent match-up was Jack Daw vs. Kirai-- with flank deployment and the table quarters strategy.  I had a minion-heavy tormented crew, with the hodgepodge emissary;  he was minion-heavy with the carrion emissary. Ended up tied 8-8, after he came from behind.  Looking back,  I made 1 significant error-- I failed to realize the emissary is not living/undead, so malevolence doesn't apply.  I could have (and should have) gone right after it early, but instead I was obsessed with lost love.  I also needed to make more offensive choices with my crew--- the emissary just simply wasn't worth its points.  Rusty Alyce or a couple 7/8 point offensive/utility moders (Gunslingers, Sue, Johan) would have been better choices

[beergod]

13 hours ago, Harrower said:

I failed to realize the emissary is not living/undead, so malevolence doesn't apply.  I could have (and should have) gone right after it early, but instead I was obsessed with lost love.  

This happens to a lot of people. The Emissary is a kill as soon as you can model because shards is such a good ability as is the extra movement  which is a pain in the butt as well.

 

[DXXXVIII]

Summoners start kinda weak with mostly their summoning engine and 1-3 summons end of turn 1.
And Outcast are great at Alphastriking tbh. So try to do some of the old dirty alphastrikes to make sure their summoning-engine is gone at the start of turn 2

[KID55]

I've played against Nicodem on 35 SS game. In the end I counted how much I kill with Leveticus, Sue and Taelor. 94 SS + Nicodem. I wipe out all enemy crew, but it was hard. Taelor is best vs summoners.

[KrazyIvan]

When playing Levi I do my best to kill summon Abominations via Desolate Soul as close to the enemy summoner as possible. Stripping suits is usually a huge deal for summoners (not to mention losing (0) actions). The passive damage pulse can also be effective at draining cards and stones. I often find that opponents will commit a crazy amount of resources to dislodge one or two Abominations camped by their summoning master.

There is always Taelor as well. Welcome to Malifaux has a 9" threat range for anti-summoning ops.

 

[Seadhna]

On 14/07/2017 at 6:20 PM, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

bring Rusty Alice and A&D to turn his weak summons into aboms.

this.

play Levi, turn their own summons into your own summons, dominate

[CapnBloodbeard]

I don't know Jack Daw too well, but as others have said - take advantage of the fact that your opponent is using cards and SS to summon, rather than in duels.  Try to keep a few models from being engaged and let them run your schemes. 

 

Try to choose schemes that don't depend on AP control, but consider that your opponent may choose those.  You may, for instance, find it easier to hold your side of the board and wait for them to come to you.  You may want to try alpha strike the summoner to stop the AP, but that may be difficult.  Shooting them may be easier. 

 

Otherwise, blasts can help.  Lazarus can also shoot multiple targets.  Strongarm suit allows you to leapfrog from engagement to engagement.

[Harrower]

The thing that was killing me is that the Emissary had the generic upgrade that gives + flips to all minions, and he could generate blocking terrain.  PLUS-- he can turn corpses into scheme markers, which enabled him to score at least one of his points for a scheme (The one where you put markers down within 6" of their deployment zone.

Reflecting on all this, I think my answer this game was I should focus on killing the emissary at all costs, starting with the crew selection.  I could deal with the rest, but he tied up too much of my force. 

[katadder]

Levi has always done me well against summoners as he can usually kill at least 2 of the summons himself and if using the tally sheet/hodgepodge effigy combo it probably wont even leave you down a SS whilst changing their summons to abominations.

If they then kill the abominations you can always drop scrap anyway denying people like nicodem the markers to summon from.

[Harrower]

katadder-- good points on Levi;  I've been taking a single master to our game nights for the past several months instead of tailoring lists; I think I might be hamstringing myself a little in certain match-ups. I've also been trying to avoid Levi, since I find he has 'easy' answers for so many situations, and I've been trying to stretch my gaming acumen.  Meaning he's very intuitive for me; other masters require some different playstyles.