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Dawn Serpent or Whiskey Golem


Rugh Z'ull

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How do you think, who is the better option for Brewamster as a tough damage dealer - serpent or golem?

+ Golem has better defence options (buffed DF 7 with built in trigger and armor are awesome), deals more damage and more mobile thanks to Nimble. Possible Flurry, but price becomes extremly high. Tri-Chi combos: better healing and possible reactivate from upkoming Tanuki
- Stupid 1" MI range, poison trigger is not built in. Brewmaster must to take an upgrade to get Golem in the crew. Works only with Brewmaster in TT

+ 7 MI with built in Poison+2, has ranged attack, HtK, counterspell

Both of them can get fast (Yu and Toshiro for serpent and Yu and Emissary for golem), both have healing options, but serpent requires models with Ca actions around.

 

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I'd definitely take neither. The Golem requires an expensive upgrade you don't want and isn't that stellar anyways and the Dawn Serpent is stuck with min damage of 2 and nothing terribly exciting. Like ^ said, go with Izamu, Yasunori, and (personal favourite) Ama no Zako. With a :-fate or two to defenses, the Ml5 suddenly doesn't hurt as much and at 3/5/7 can be a great finisher. Also you can Obey units into her Terrifying range and cheat in low to essentially permalock them. Yasunori meanwhile can get about 7 attacks off if you choose to obey him with Brewwie as well. 10 if you take Wesley but then you'd have to take that darn upgrade. 13 if you get Ama no Zako too and obey wesley into obeying Yasunori :x. But yeah, Yasu is great, and personally I love Ama. Have taken both on a few occasions and really haven't regretted it.

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5 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

The Golem requires an expensive upgrade you don't want

You absolutely want that upgrade! Not because it's good, because it's not, but it lets you bring Wesley who is pretty much an autotake imo. You can always then use a Terracotta Warrior to swap it out for something like Misdirection or Binge because you're probably not going to be using the tactical on it.

But I do echo the sentiments here that I would probably rather use a different beater. I do like Izamu but recently I've been using The Lone Swordsman and he's pretty nasty. I imagine getting an enemy enforcer onto :-fates with Hangover and then using You Shall Not See Another Sunrise is a good way to get reactivates off him. The Emissary is another good pick. Its damage track seems fairly poor but when you are getting Focus +2 every turn, you're likely to hit those severes.

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Wesley is nice, but not Paying 2 SS for a 3 SS model nice. And definitely not Paying 2 SS + a 5 SS model that I would've much rather be an entirely different model -nice.

Lets be honest, that upgrade should never have been a thing and at the very least Wesley you should've been able to take without paying that extra cost. As it is now it's far too big an investment just to get your totem on board.

@Rugh Z'ull, The problem with that is that you're playing the Brewmaster on poison, and you don't want poison, you want Swills and Obeys and Binges. And after you've handed those out, you are much better off getting models that kill harder than models that poison harder since killing harder just means your opponent has one less threat to activate.

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Yeah, Brewmaster never gives poison by himself, but there are a lot of models, who does. And enemies often takes it by themselves in his bubble. So I don't see a problem to play though the poison.

I understand that there are better beaters, but I'm interested in serpent and golem comparison, like there are no one else. 

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If you want the crew to handle the poisoning you might as well get McCabe, the Dawn Serpent and a Performer. The Dawn Serpent can reactivate into giving up to 10 poison a turn, you can take a fair amount of minions who can poison too to give McCabe more options, and while that's happening McCabe and really all models can flutter around the battlefield without your master becoming stuck in a giant melee 5 turns straight.

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Definitely the Dawn Serpent; no one uses the Whiskey Golem, even with the 0 cost upgrade he's not good enough.  also having to spend one of your AP to increase it's Def is dumb for a beat stick that should be using it's AP to actually beat things.

 

also, you know what looks good on the table?  A Dawn Serpent on one side and a Shadow Emissary on the other side!

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I would also raise the point of "whichever one you like the most aesthetically." 

I would say of the 2, Dawn Serpent would get more work done because of ranged, burning, blasts, and high stat value.  But the Whiskey Golem is a Whiskey Golem!

If you are concerned about overall effectiveness, I would indeed look to a different beater that can bring more craziness to the party. 

You can also look at that 10ss slot as a tech piece... swapping in what you need based off what you are fighting.  Izamu/Yasunori if you need a lot of attacks with some beef. Kang if you need to bypass armor. Serpent if you want some more ranged value. Etc. 

Jorogumo is a fair pick here as well because it is HtW, HtK, has eat your fill, is min dam 3 and can have 3 attacks. Putting your opponent on negatives helps ensure it does the dirty even with that middling Ml5. 

As to the terracotta, upgrade conversation.  I personally take the upgrade because I'm guaranteed to take Misdirection on Brewie.  I've always found it invaluable and I like to play a bit more forward with him.  And I never consider terracotta a waste of points. I always want a 5ss slot and he's a solid piece for it. Maybe not as good as a 10T bros or Yokai, but that really more depends on your schemes. And wesley is pretty damned awesome. So for me it's not really a waste of SS to pull this trick, and I like access to wesley in my brewie list. 

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  • 2 months later...

For the comparison:

If u take the Whiskey Golem and reactivate it, taking drinking problem on him has 2 benefits:
- The Aura is better on a 50mm base and lets fingers heal himself more efficiently. 
- Its actually the only way to use the (0) on the upgrade twice and push 2 enemies 8" towards brewie. Dont underestimate those 8".


Since the terracotta condition can give the whiskey golem more survivability and the tanuki and the golem himself can heal it pretty well its not such a big deal that the healing doubleing doesnt work on the wiskey golem. Trust me 1ap 6 heal is worth so much on fingers in the right moments. Ive often found myself in the situation that fingers has a few wounds left and needed to survive and move a little bit further and drop a scheme marker but wouldnt survive with just healing himself 1 time. 

Also healing 6 on your master for (1) and a high card is kinda hardcore and common in this case since the Whisker Golem and Brewie hang out together for most of the game. 

People are used to the Whiskey golem not doing much on its own due to the 1" range and basicly only atk or selfdefence actions. So often he is overlooked and people dont realize he can pull 2 people towards the drinking contest and how much 8" can be. 

Terracotta (autotake) + Whiskey Golem + Tanuki are some well spent 22SS in a brewie crew. Shadow Emissary makes the WG super fast and adds in 1 more poison dmg most of the time since his aura is 10" and suddenly those 2 or more lured in Modells take 4 poison dmg each turn (New Brewie Upgrade and Emissary) in addition to whatever damage a reactivating fast nimble whiskey golem and a doublefocused Shadow Emissary wanna do to swilled targets during the turn. The enemy hand is pressured by pick your poison from brewie and wesley and in some cases missdirection. On top of this fingers can take death contract since he is the most annoying piece in the crew and people love to spend a lot of resources to kill him, which happens in later turns most of the time, when soulstones are rare and he might kill his murderer with death contract if you destroyed the enemy hand before. 

Dont overlook fingers atk trigger aswell. Giving out poison in a bubble is worth so much more in a crew with quadrouple poison dmg. 
 

When it comes to the Dawn Serpent you have to consider its strengs and its playstile and if it fits into the playstyle of a crew.
My experience with the Serpent is limited to the other side of the table since I dont own him but my regular opponent played him a lot. 
Whenever I played against him i had the following impressing:
- He was brutal when kiting and using his flight, range and blats the most and was only ever used to its potential when paired with mccabe.
- Once he got in range, I dropped him really fast and I didnt have a hard time doing this cause his defence isnt that great and holding a spot in melee isnt his strength.

If I would play him, I'd use him as a flanking threat and I wouldnt risk charging him in for some poison (since poison is so easy to give out anyways in this crew).

 



 

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1 hour ago, Tokapondora said:

Fingers is a bad option in the scheme pools you're taking Brewmaster with.

With wave 5 there is literally no pool brewmaster is bad for. And fingers is one of the most efficient models in the whole game and in 9 of 10 pools he is worth every single of his point.

 

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2 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

Fingers is a bad option in the scheme pools you're taking Brewmaster with.

Which pools would you consider Brewmaster in? I use him primarily is strategies that dictate the enemy models position (Turf War etc...) and scheme pools that don't require a lot of kills.

This doesn't make  make Fingers auto-include, especially not with the 7ss tax. He is a good model, but another support piece in a faction with 2 big support pieces already in place. 

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To the OPs question- between the Dawn Serpent and the Golem, I like the Whiskey Golem with Brewie.  Mainly because of the aesthetics.  

From a game mechanics perspective, Tri-Chi models have a lot of effects that only come into play with other Tri-Chi models, so the Golem gets a win in that category for me too.

Your mileage may vary, of course.  Why not try both out with proxies to see which you prefer?

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I'm not sure taking a master to hire a certain model shows anything other than "you're probably better off bringing a better master". Which seems to be Brewie's catch phrase by now. And Fingers with the Brewmaster, Wesley and Yu or even the Emissary will be over half your list AND your master spent on support. He's not bad by any means but a 12 SS schemer that can only be taken with a master that shines when he primes models for the rest of his crew to take advantage of (kill) and lives through having his crew do all the heavy lifting just isn't a good fit. There's a handful of other masters I'd love to use him with, but alas, he's stuck with pretty much his worst fit.

You'll want the Brewmaster in games that get you to bunch up, with schemes that favour killing. He's good at getting units killed and decent at keeping units from killing. That's pretty much his one and only thing. Get Yu to do some marker magic if you absolutely need to play with them for that second scheme and you have the games Brewmaster likes.

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30 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

Which pools would you consider Brewmaster in? I use him primarily is strategies that dictate the enemy models position (Turf War etc...) and scheme pools that don't require a lot of kills.

well, Brewmaster can be effective in killy schemes also.

a couple of swills are a good way to kill everything you touch with your beaters

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34 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

With respect, have you played Fingers in Headhunter?

Yes, yesterday vs Paralyse Pandora. Chatty is no good if you can't kill something to drop a head in the first place. Head Hunter isn't a strategy that requires bunching up either so that bubble only goes so far. For 12ss investment to bring Fingers into TT it is easier to go with a native TT support piece.

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5 hours ago, Kogan Style said:

Yes, yesterday vs Paralyse Pandora. Chatty is no good if you can't kill something to drop a head in the first place. Head Hunter isn't a strategy that requires bunching up either so that bubble only goes so far. For 12ss investment to bring Fingers into TT it is easier to go with a native TT support piece.

11 SS

You are hiring Wesley too.

And you have 33 SS left, you can't bring domenica beater?

And with Brewmaster throwing swill around, you don't even Need big MI models.

Everyone Will start hitting and killing stuff (in gremlins, the lucky effigy becomes deadly beat the Brewmaster)

 

Tannen suffers from being really fragile with no big defensive abilities and forced  to activate early 

 

 

 

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