Lilith's fluff direction

[Da Git]

So, am I the only one who's noticed a fluff direction shift for Lilith that has been going on for a while? 

Way back in M1E, she was written as a patient, cunning hunter and very mercurial, going from, cool sadism to rage and back at the drop of a hat. 

Look at the story of Raspy busting Phillip out of the sanitarium way back in the first ever Chronicles, she talks very coolly and casually to Raspy with all the poise of a predator, then snaps when she discovers December (but still engaging in hit and run attacks), then back to sadism to kill Phil. 

This continues through book 1&2 of M1E. 

Then from M2E, she just seems to be angry all the time. Her rules and game-play are perfect though. 

In Book 1, she ploughs through a crowd in a rage and is super direct, there's absolutely no subtlety. This has continued all the way to present. She just seems so desperate, always being on the back foot has just driven her to rage. Look at her portrait on the cover of the new book... 

It almost seems like her and Nekima's personalities have swapped. Nekima is now the patient, cunning one creating her army of half-breeds to take back her birth-right. 

I really don't like this new direction and hope it's not too late to go back. 

Thoughts? 

[-Loki-]

She seemed rather calm and cool when first dealing with Titania in the Autumn Court but snapped when Pandora seemed ok with capitulating to Titania.

Same with when she went with Pandora and Zoraida, she was pretty calm most of the time and only snapped when you'd expect, like when they found the guy selling Nephilim artefacts and when Zoraida was about to fuck everything up.

Though I'd say she's got a reason to be angrier now, with a true contender to her crown suddenly coming back from imprisonment and her sister seemingly siding with that contender.

The cunning side is still there - she likely knows Nekima is making her army of half breeds as she is growing her loyal Nephilim army faster than she'd like (the comment about feeding her Tots to grow when they aren't ready).

[Durza]

She has also been hanging around Pandora, and the box has been shown to be messing with her emotions, that can't be good for her mental health. 

[Da Git]

13 hours ago, -Loki- said:

She seemed rather calm and cool when first dealing with Titania in the Autumn Court but snapped when Pandora seemed ok with capitulating to Titania.

Same with when she went with Pandora and Zoraida, she was pretty calm most of the time and only snapped when you'd expect, like when they found the guy selling Nephilim artefacts and when Zoraida was about to fuck everything up.

We seem to have different memories of those stories, for me, when she entered Z's hut and instantly butchered the Z-man in a fit of rage is classic new direction Lilith, no thought process, just instant rage...  Even Pandora notes that her aura is permanently black, fizzing and popping she's such an easy target.  She treats Zoraida well enough but treats Pandoralike a child (which she probably is comparatively).  But she still has absolutely no subtlety in anything she does...

Same when she met Titania, she just barged in with an army of nephilim, huffed and puffed, but didn't blow the house down, turned tail and walked away...

13 hours ago, -Loki- said:

Though I'd say she's got a reason to be angrier now, with a true contender to her crown suddenly coming back from imprisonment and her sister seemingly siding with that contender.

The cunning side is still there - she likely knows Nekima is making her army of half breeds as she is growing her loyal Nephilim army faster than she'd like (the comment about feeding her Tots to grow when they aren't ready).

She even mentions she was more forgiving in the past (like when she met Z), and again, it's not the rage that bothers me, it's how it controls her... she's too rash and straight forward, which doesn't suit her mechanics (or how I'd like to see her portrayed)...  I'd like to see her more as the Predator from the titular movie.  Stalking her prey, picking them off one by one in sudden bursts of violence and sadism rather than just charging in on rage.

As far as I'm aware or can recall, there hasn't been any official mention of Nekima joining up with Titania, that's all been conjecture on our part.

To quote Chronicles #26, Opposing Goals (where again Lilith is quite the rage machine...

Quote

“You often see schemes where they don’t exist,” The crone chided, her voice reminiscent of a croaking raven. “It gives you an excuse for bloodshed. Still, there may be a plot here; the Titania of old was quite adept at masking her true intentions. Your sister should continue learning about her.”

“Fine,” Lilith huffed. “As always, my children will face the danger head-on while you waste our time playing games. I’m certain that no harm will come from allowing her to whisper empty promises in Nekima’s ear.” She pointed her sword at the other two. “Mark my words. When this self-imposed queen incites a war, you will come to me and beg for my help.”

It almost sounds like Nekima's working with Z in the first paragraph...  As far as I'm aware, we have no idea if Nekima actually joined up with Titania (I hope she does though!)

[Mason]

15 hours ago, Durza said:

She has also been hanging around Pandora, and the box has been shown to be messing with her emotions, that can't be good for her mental health. 

Hanging out with Pandora probably isn't good for anyone's mental health.

[Durza]

7 hours ago, Mason said:

Hanging out with Pandora probably isn't good for anyone's mental health.

Including her considering her fluff in shifting loyalties.

[Vorschlag]

Considering turning the other neverborn against Titania is in the tyrants best interests...(which makes it odd that she has no anti tyrant abilities).

Personally I hope Nekima decapitates Lilith and drinks her soul...but I never liked Lilith in the fluff or her models.

Of course I doubt wyrd would ever upset players by killing off a Master, especially one likely vital to beating the tyrants.

I think Lilith is probably a hard character for most players to relate to as she sees the human race as tresspassers, thieves and invaders.

She seems to tolerate us only as a means to and end and will wipe humans from the face of Malifaux once the tyrants are defeated.

Add to this her frustration with other neverborn not sharing her views, the challenge to her dominance from Nekima and then Titania shows up.

Then there's the complexity as a matriarch, maternal responsibility, traditionalist beliefs, possible conflict with the priesthood (where Nekima has made inroads) and the self imposed weight of all Malifaux upon her shoulders.

[-Loki-]

Lilith is my favorite master, both in the game and fluff, so i'd be fairly miffed if Wyrd offed her. But I think her design could use a bit of a reboot and make her look a bit more like other Nephilim. Nothing over the top, but small horns on the forehead and bulges where hidden wings would be under her coat would go a long way. The biggest gripe I see with her is she looks nothing like the Nephilim she leads, with no clear answer given as to why. There's the usual 'powerful Neverborn can look like what they want' but why someone who hates humans as much as she does chooses to mimic their appearance right down to wearing fairly modern clothes, especially when she's not know to be particularly subtle dealing with them, is a bit odd.

[Mason]

6 hours ago, -Loki- said:

Lilith is my favorite master, both in the game and fluff, so i'd be fairly miffed if Wyrd offed her. But I think her design could use a bit of a reboot and make her look a bit more like other Nephilim. Nothing over the top, but small horns on the forehead and bulges where hidden wings would be under her coat would go a long way. The biggest gripe I see with her is she looks nothing like the Nephilim she leads, with no clear answer given as to why.

Why Lilith looks like she does is explained in the Core Rules, actually.

It's definitely not her natural form.

[Da Git]

17 minutes ago, Mason said:

Why Lilith looks like she does is explained in the Core Rules, actually.

It's definitely not her natural form.

This has kind've been a repeated complaint of mine, but it really sucks that things like this a put in TTB... It means that those of us that only play Malifaux *and would like to put our limited funds there never get a chance to read it...

[Nathan Caroland]

Only so much space in a given book.

RPG's are also a different beast and the info provided therein is of a different nature.

[Da Git]

On 7/7/2017 at 0:34 PM, Vorschlag said:

I think Lilith is probably a hard character for most players to relate to as she sees the human race as tresspassers, thieves and invaders.

She seems to tolerate us only as a means to and end and will wipe humans from the face of Malifaux once the tyrants are defeated.

I actually find Lilith the easiest Neverborn character to relate to for this exact reason...  Humans are pretty much vermin.  Look at how much damage we've done to the planet over the our short time year & the rate is accelerating all the time.  It's rather depressing...

Also, I daresay most people would take the same attitude if someone invaded there country/home.  Case in point: one of Trump's & Brexit's big sellers were anti-immigration.  Not my views, but it does stand out as there are a lot of Liliths out there...

On 7/7/2017 at 9:41 PM, Nathan Caroland said:

Only so much space in a given book.

RPG's are also a different beast and the info provided therein is of a different nature.

Understandable...  Just saying it's not hugely helpful for Mason to say that information is in the TTB rules when (I imagine) there's more than a fair few Malifaux-ers out there who have no intention of buying the books (although if you do a TTB Bundle of Holding package, I'd be all over that!)

[-Loki-]

1 hour ago, Da Git said:

(although if you do a TTB Bundle of Holding package, I'd be all over that!)

They did one about 6 months ago. Right before they announced second edition (I'll admit, the timing annoyed me). Had the Fated and Fatemasters Almanacs, Into the Steam, Under Quarantine, A Night in Rottenburg, Northern Aggression and 5 one shots for about $30us. So I can't see them doing another so soon.

[Da Git]

3 hours ago, -Loki- said:

They did one about 6 months ago. Right before they announced second edition (I'll admit, the timing annoyed me). Had the Fated and Fatemasters Almanacs, Into the Steam, Under Quarantine, A Night in Rottenburg, Northern Aggression and 5 one shots for about $30us. So I can't see them doing another so soon.

Damn... Well that just ruined my evening...  Excuse me while I go sit in the corner & cry!

Hopefully they do another one soon...

Anyway to go back on topic, I still think Lilith should be more the patient hunter type than the raw rage machine she's becoming... It's been a while since I've seen that aspect of her!  By all means, her hatred and despising of humans should be there as they're an essential aspect of her personality, just the methods & her outright hostility has definitely gone way too high... I'm amazed this is the Lilith that usurped the throne from Nekima.  Maybe it's not taking power but holding it that drives one to rage, it seems Nekima is now playing the patient (not really), build up your forces, get allies to overthrow the ruler.

[Ergonomic Cat]

On 7/9/2017 at 2:45 AM, Da Git said:

I actually find Lilith the easiest Neverborn character to relate to for this exact reason...  Humans are pretty much vermin.  Look at how much damage we've done to the planet over the our short time year & the rate is accelerating all the time.  It's rather depressing...

 

Agreed.  I find Lilith very easy to relate to, and very easy to get in her mindset.

She's the queen of a magical world.

Suddenly, humans literally breach her world, stroll in, claim everything ("Do you have a flag?  No?") and start sucking the soul out of her land.  It's very easy to understand the "Hey! Screw you hippies!  Get out of here!  We could have worked together, but you just tramped in here and stole it!"

It reflects a lot of periods of history in our world where the "civilized" people showed up and took land from the natives.  

I quite enjoy pointing at everyone that's not playing Neverborn and shouting "GET OFF MY LAND YOU INVADING BASTARDS!"

And then the Gremlin player says "Hey! I was here from the beginning!" And then we just dismiss him as vermin, and not a real faction.

There's a reason our shirt says "Ours"

[Vorschlag]

Indeed, while I refuse to buy into the modern trend of claiming colonisation is a wholly negative thing I will argue black and blue that the neverborn defending their home means they are not simply "the bad guys".

It doesn't help that I oppose alignments as a way of categorizing characters and see them as the laziest, most shallow and empty way of creating or exploring personalities.

[Sybaris]

What a nice thread.  There was alway something odd about Lilith's appearance within her subsect of Nephilim. It wasn't explained for a long time until the Core TTB rules, apart from the fact that lilith's model pre-existed Malifaux's setting.

The fact she's that easy to relate to for us humans is my reason why i think she doesn't fit Nephilims too well. She behaves too much like humans would, and the Nephilim shouldn't be understandable from a human point of view in my mind. That's why Nekima always felt like the right character concept for the job in the first place (to me, of course).

I also hope that Nekima eventually replaces Lilith as a master for Neverborn, as i've always found her more fitting for leading the Nephilim. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for Lilith. Although i'd be happy with a red queen's off-with-her-head exit, she could very well be sent to Outcasts after a confrontation with Titania. At least such event would make a major and awesome evolution for the world, while not changing the metagame too much.

Just my opinions and wishful thinking of course.

[Da Git]

1 hour ago, Sybaris said:

What a nice thread.  There was alway something odd about Lilith's appearance within her subsect of Nephilim. It wasn't explained for a long time until the Core TTB rules, apart from the fact that lilith's model pre-existed Malifaux's setting.

The fact she's that easy to relate to for us humans is my reason why if think she doesn't fit Nephilims too well. She behaves too much like humans would, and the Nephilim shouldn't be understandable from a human point of view in my mind. That's why Nekima always felt like the right character concept for the job in the first place (to me, of course).

I also hope that Nekima eventually replaces Lilith as a master for Neverborn, as i've always found her more fitting for leading the Nephilim. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for Lilith. Although i'd be happy with a red queen's off-with-her-head exit, she could very well be sent to Outcasts after a confrontation with Titania. At least such event would make a major and awesome evolution for the world, while not changing the metagame too much.

Just my opinions and wishful thinking of course.

The only problem with Nekima, is that we know so little about her, almost all of it has been from other's PoV (& Lilith's hardly objective!).  Other than the Scion of BB & Bloodwretchs' bestiary I can't recall anything first person that shows her true character.

She's huge, in her early writings, she was rage personified slaughtering the humans after the 1st Breach closed.  Then she was usurped.  Now she seems to be using cunning to make human half-breeds to win back her birthright.  She's also been stated as more of a traditionalist than Lilith. 

Anything else I've missed?  We haven't really got any good insights into her personality yet.  Hopefully in the new book, this will come to light & we get to see her interactions with Titania.

[Sybaris]

I agree, there's a lot left to discover, but at the same time, the greatest monster is often the one we do not know everything about. That is, of course, if one wishes to maintain a horror flair to the story.

Just for a complete record, she appeared in one of Sonnia stories (on the way to Latigo) and Tuco's background (the first hybrid?). The lack of material (yet) is also a mean to explore new avenues and giving old ones a new purpose. If they ever release the new model (to go with the new artwork), it'd be a great time to do so.

 

[-Loki-]

I think it's interesting with Nekima creating half breeds to try to usurp Lilith. That there is an interesting way to move Nekima to Outcasts, if anyone went there - the outcast Nephilim ruler using unorthodox methods to regain power.

Though the bigger problem is Nekima is the factions most popular beater, and Lilith is the factions most flexible leader. Lilith going Outcasts, or being killed outright, leaves a big playstyle hole that Nekima simply wouldn't fill, and Nekima going Outcasts removes the factions most popular beater and creating a 'not-Nekima', overly similar replacement would be seen as lazy.

So I'm pretty sure neither are going anywhere, at least until an M3E.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, -Loki- said:

I think it's interesting with Nekima creating half breeds to try to usurp Lilith. That there is an interesting way to move Nekima to Outcasts, if anyone went there - the outcast Nephilim ruler using unorthodox methods to regain power.

Though the bigger problem is Nekima is the factions most popular beater, and Lilith is the factions most flexible leader. Lilith going Outcasts, or being killed outright, leaves a big playstyle hole that Nekima simply wouldn't fill, and Nekima going Outcasts removes the factions most popular beater and creating a 'not-Nekima', overly similar replacement would be seen as lazy.

So I'm pretty sure neither are going anywhere, at least until an M3E.

Its highly unlikely that even if they produced a Master nekima, that they would ban the use of the henchman. When they did this sort of promotion before, the only restriction was that Master Misaki/Hamlin could not hire minion Misaki/Hamlin. 

[Sybaris]

It seems the new Nekima model won't be released at Gen Con, so Black Friday would be the next option...unless there'd be a story encounter box in the making.

[Da Git]

Lots of cool ideas coming up!

Whilst I doubt it's gunna happen for a while, I'd love a Master Nekima (I've actually been tempted to do some of my own rules for that very thing for a while now...)! 

Really hope her storyline advances in this book... Hope she sides with Titania and really shows Lilith who's boss!

[Ergonomic Cat]

On 7/16/2017 at 8:27 AM, Da Git said:

Lots of cool ideas coming up!

Whilst I doubt it's gunna happen for a while, I'd love a Master Nekima (I've actually been tempted to do some of my own rules for that very thing for a while now...)! 

Really hope her storyline advances in this book... Hope she sides with Titania and really shows Lilith who's boss!

She kinda sorta already has rules - give her another AP for melee, call it good.

 

 

[Sybaris]

That's actually what i do as well.