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One of the new things you'll see about are the 'sticky notes' which you will occasionally see from the site Admins if something important shows up or is newsworthy, or if you happen to be in one of our many beta testing groups giving you an additional heads up when something new needs to be looked at or sorted.

You can send these amongst yourselves as well if you wish, just don't abuse it. 

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Nathan Caroland Nathan Caroland

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52 minutes ago, retnab said:

I think at this point it's safe to say that nobody is really making demands of Wyrd to include more non-straight characters (important to point out the word more, as canonically we already have a few confirmed and a bunch more with a fair few hints towards it, as noted earlier in this thread).

 

Not going to lie, speaking of Serena, I was pretty bummed that we didn't get to see her little wind magic learning / date night with The Captain, just because what I really love about this game (and a lot of other stories, really) is the interactions between characters.  Seriously though, if anyone still has the files just read the little detail blurb and tell me you don't want to read more about that :P

Back on topic though, having some non-straight characters interact with characters in Malifaux in ways that we aren't already seeing means seeing new and old characters from a new light, and I'm all about that depth of character.  We know fairly confidently from the fluff that Cassie's not into the gentlemen who visit her, it might be nice to find out if she has been seeing anyone on the years she's been in Malifaux.  Heck, if I wasn't confident in my writing skills I'd throw something together, but maybe someone who's better at that whole wording thing can do that, lol.

Eh, I'm a tad gun-shy about writing anything deeper than a battle narrative after last year's writing contest, but I did think the 'self-righteous man finds himself shacked up with a gremlinette' prompt was too delicious and wrote that one. And writing that one across the gremlin/human divide was weird enough that it didn't need to be any more unconventional. Besides, Trixiebelle fancying humans just explains so very much, so she had to be the one to monopolize him. But I wouldn't choose Serena's date that week, not when one of her other prompts would have been her promise never ever to abuse the powers of this construct-shuffling device, cross my heart and hope to die. :P I would've liked to learn a shred of anything about the Captain and they seemed simpatico, but c'mon, stompybots, you know where my vote's going.

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Da Git   
14 hours ago, Voodoo Specter said:

To the people who argue that homosexuality wasn't accepted in that time period asside from the counter argument that there already a lot of discrepancies between real history and Malifuax history particularly in regards to gender roles. There is an argument to say keep the socail attiude historically accurate so most people find it distasteful or even make it illegal as it was in many countries during the time period. A character who is struggling with how their sexuality is perceived buy their society can be a good and interesting character. For example  a Guild official is being blackmailed by the Ten Thunders who are threatening to out him costing him his job and his freedom or a mercenary who can't join any official force because of his open homosexuality but is still begrudgingly hired due to his skill, showing how he interacts with people he knows hate him for what he is but need him for his talent. In a world where there is sytematic oppression and exploitation, nightmare horrors, and barely contolled magic as issues faced by the characters  you can definitely have homophobia as a foil to a gay character

Both of those would make super cool characters I think! (me being a straight, cis, white (although a minority) male, but that's my opinion anyways!)

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retnab   
7 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

Eh, I'm a tad gun-shy about writing anything deeper than a battle narrative after last year's writing contest, but I did think the 'self-righteous man finds himself shacked up with a gremlinette' prompt was too delicious and wrote that one. And writing that one across the gremlin/human divide was weird enough that it didn't need to be any more unconventional. Besides, Trixiebelle fancying humans just explains so very much, so she had to be the one to monopolize him. But I wouldn't choose Serena's date that week, not when one of her other prompts would have been her promise never ever to abuse the powers of this construct-shuffling device, cross my heart and hope to die. :P I would've liked to learn a shred of anything about the Captain and they seemed simpatico, but c'mon, stompybots, you know where my vote's going.

Okay that is a good point, it was a very good week for prompts haha, maybe I just wanted to know more about the majestic enigma that is The Captain.  :D 

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L3gion   

Not sure why I chime in, but hey - that's what forums are for, right?

The way-too-many-worded rant below is fueled mostly by the fact that, for example, in the Shut Up and Sit Down review of Malifaux, 90% of the comments were not about the game, but about the portrayal of women in it, their (somewhat and mostly justifiably) revealing outfits and (alleged) victimization. The topic is not necessarily related to the topic of the thread, but... I guess I just cannot hold the words within me. Sorry.

A little background first, so that you know where I'm coming from; feel free to skip it (as well as the rest of the post, I guess). I'm from Eastern Europe (not Russia, but culturally close), where political correctness, SJW-ness and "white-people guilt", as well as their counterparts, are not really wide-spread. "Gay" is very much a swear-word to most people here, "negro" (sorry!) is an OK word to use; though the attitude of the younger generation is a bit less easy to put down due to our exposure to the English-speaking parts of the Internet. I won't go into my own views on the subjects since it is not a discussion I would like to have here, on Malifaux forum, but here are some examples, for context. I don't mind the idea of a shirtless male performer in the Colette's theater - I find the concept amusing, and the model itself might be cool (I don't play Arcanists, so I don't know). I was unpleasantly surprised when I learned that a number of people consider Tara and Karina (whom I do play) lesbians, but that is mostly because I don't like the shipping culture in general ("yeah, the character is cool an' all, but WHO DOES HE/SHE SLEEP WITH???", and the general fixation on the idea that, if characters get along well, they MUST have sex. No, they must not necessarily.), and because I like Tara specifically because she does not give a heck about much, including silly hormones. I guess I wouldn't mind if their homosexuality became canon, but I'd really rather it didn't - I'm entirely OK with them being just friends, together till all is Void, not caring about anything or anyone. Also, the ambiguity of lore is cool - it does wonders in the Dark Souls community, it works great here.

Prologue over, now to the point. I got into Malifaux because it was cool. I like the cynical, dark setting, with strong Tarantino and Frank Miller vibes here and there. I like the concept of the Seamus crew (the maypole of controversy in many places on the Internet), because it is cool. I like that one model of an undead mother and her child, whom she apparently has drowned, - because it is cool. I like the Viktorias' crew, because "Kill Bill", which is cool. I like a lot of things about the lore - its dark sense of humor, its stories of questionable people doing questionable things, and tragedies that form a lot of characters into badasses they are. Now, I'm way past my "goth teen" phase (well, "goth" maybe not so much, but "teen" - definitely), but stylish (FICTIONAL) violence and strong characters with questionable morals (which are FICTIONAL) still appeal to me. Seamus, the mother, other guys in the lore are not good people, but they are good, interesting characters.

(Also: not everything has to evolve around sexuality. I don't mind scandily-clad male or female characters, as long as they are badass and look nice as models. I don't mind Nekima's "battle bikini", not because I'm horny, but because, to me, she is the embodiment of passion, wrath and sexuality (she is, first and foremost, a mother, after all. Of monsters); also, the model is beautiful, and I would rather collect and play with beautiful models (Jack Daw's crew also counts - my definition of "beauty" is somewhat broad). Some of the old models (first-edition Taelor, for example) were silly, but the new realistic approach is quite great. All in all, I don't buy expensive, for my income, miniatures to masturbate to them.)

So. As someone from a highly conservative society, I wouldn't mind playing a gay character, a transsexual character, etc., - as long as they are COOL in some way. And Malifaux, as a setting, has a lot of cool things going for it, and Wyrd is cool for creating them. "Cool", to me, includes not giving a flip about society's opinion. Taking criticism is fine, considering the fans' wishes and opinions is fine; that's why the second edition models look way better than the first-edition ones. Dancing around certain topics is MORE than fine - it gives fans space for speculation without inviting controversy. But...

...

Please, Wyrd, please - just remain cool. OK? Do what you think is good, not what others think is. Feel free to release a character who is a racial stereotype of Ukrainian people: give him a woven shirt and an "oseledets" hairstyle, let him wave a bottle of "gorilka" in one hand, a piece of "salo" (bacon, sort of) in the other and a Molotov coctail in his teeth. Make him gay/trans/whatever, if you feel that it's necessary. Just make him COOL, and people will buy him/her/it in an instant!

Please, never change, Wyrd. Please, remain cool, and keep giving us stories of badasses doing badass things. That's all I ask:)

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L3gion   

Also, I just remembered an example of LGBT representation in Malifaux.

Baritone Lola.

A part of the crew that I would love to own and play, because the Dark Carnival concept is cool (thank you, Ray Bradbury, for my happy childhood).

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Astrella   

Why do you think we wouldn't want LGBT characters to be well written as well? Isn't that like a default assumption for any character? Like, I don't want token characters either. I mostly just got annoyed by the throwback against even the idea of inclusion.

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On 7/13/2017 at 2:51 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

So you consider all fan opinions of character traits as horrid? No one is allowed to voice any preferences of critiques because an artist might take heed?

I can't name one boring LGBT miniatures game character. Meaning one I would consider more boring than average, that is. Maybe you can?

I did not say anything about fan opinions of character traits are horrid. That's not the question that was asked. I did not say preferences could not be discussed. Please engage with me honestly.

I was broadening the discussion to cultural artifacts that extend beyond miniatures. I'd apologize for not making that clearer, but I think you know that's what I was doing.

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5 minutes ago, Broken Clock said:

I did not say anything about fan opinions of character traits are horrid. That's not the question that was asked. I did not say preferences could not be discussed. Please engage with me honestly.

So you're saying that people are free to want whatever as long as what they want isn't more diversity? I'm quite honestly having difficulty following you here.

5 minutes ago, Broken Clock said:

I was broadening the discussion to cultural artifacts that extend beyond miniatures.

I understood that. It doesn't seem to have any bearing on the above, though.

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19 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

So you're saying that people are free to want whatever as long as what they want isn't more diversity? I'm quite honestly having difficulty following you here.

I understood that. It doesn't seem to have any bearing on the above, though.

I didn't say people can't want more diversity. If I did, by all means, quote the passage that states that idea. You're not engaging with the strongest form of my argument. You're strawmanning.

My reference to homosexual characters within popular culture that were likely produced on the foundation of "let's make a gay!" is indeed relevant to my previous points. Again, I would ask that you engage with me honestly or not at all. Thank you.

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5 hours ago, Broken Clock said:

I didn't say people can't want more diversity. If I did, by all means, quote the passage that states that idea. You're not engaging with the strongest form of my argument. You're strawmanning.

My reference to homosexual characters within popular culture that were likely produced on the foundation of "let's make a gay!" is indeed relevant to my previous points. Again, I would ask that you engage with me honestly or not at all. Thank you.

The way I see it, you took exception to someone hoping for an LGBT character. If I followed your reasoning, you believed that the character would somehow automatically be a one-note token character with glued upon theme of being gay or something.

Now, imagine that someone would've wanted a character with any other descriptor besides LGBT. Let's say that someone would've said that they wanted a vampire character or a resurrected crusader or a possessed gremlin or whatever. Would you have reacted the same way? That there is a chief danger that the possessed gremlin will be a one-note token possessed gremlin and totally uninteresting merely serving to satisfy that fan.

So are you taking exception against all fan wishes or just wishes for more diversity?

I didn't engage the stuff about stock photo characters because Malifaux isn't a stock photo and the differences between Malifaux and a stock photo are so vast that the whole comparison is IMO useless to discuss so I engaged the rest of your point number one.

If I haven't addressed the strongest form of your argument, maybe you could re-iterate it as I have now read your original post several times and the above is all I can get out of it. Which is what I engaged with. I also note that I dislike your accusations of dishonesty.

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Kadeton   

@Broken Clock, @Math Mathonwy: This back-and-forth about who said what and what they might have meant by it isn't adding anything to the conversation, and is heading towards personal attacks and derailment of the thread. I think it's probably best if you both drop it and move on.

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Da Git   

Not to pull this back up, but what did Marvel do to the Mighty Thor in regards to the diversity comments?

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16 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Not to pull this back up, but what did Marvel do to the Mighty Thor in regards to the diversity comments?

AFAIK in the current series, the "real" Thor turned out to be unworthy to wield Mjolnir, and it was taken up by Jane Foster (a supporting character from the franchise) who also took over the Thor superhero identity.

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Da Git   
15 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

AFAIK in the current series, the "real" Thor turned out to be unworthy to wield Mjolnir, and it was taken up by Jane Foster (a supporting character from the franchise) who also took over the Thor superhero identity.

Wow, that actually sounds ridiculously cool!  I'd love it if they did that in the movie series... highly doubt it though!

Thanks!

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I'm surprised with the comic book references there's been no mention of Batwoman yet.  She even has her own mini for the Batman game.

K35DC022-BATWOMAN.jpg

She's probably the most high-profile gay superhero, and has been consistently popular since the introduction of the modern version of the character.  She's currently one of the main characters in Detective Comics and has her own self-titled monthly.

And yet she kind of defies a lot of the points people have raised against LGBT characters.  Her origin story revolves around her being gay (she was dishonourably discharged under 'don't ask, don't tell' and decided to put her marine training to use as a vigilante so she could still 'serve'), and the writers' decision to make her gay was part diversity push, part meta-joke.  To quote DC's Dan Didio;

Quote

"It was from conversations we’ve had for expanding the DC Universe, for looking at levels of diversity. We wanted to have a cast that is much more reflective of today’s society and even today’s fanbase. One of the reasons we made her gay is that, again when you have the Batman Family—a series of characters that aren’t super-powered and inhabit the same circle and the same city—you really want to have a point of difference. It was really important to me to make sure every character felt unique."

The meta joke comes from the fact that the original incarnation of Batwoman was introduced back in the fifties as a love interest for Batman to dispel the joke that Batman and Robin were gay.  The original version of the character was never popular and vanished after being overshadowed by Batgirl.  So DC thought it was kinda funny to make the modern version openly gay as a tongue in cheek jab at their own original creation.

Personally, I don't care what the tiny plastic men on my book shelf do or don't do behind closed doors.   I just thought I'd give an example of how there really isn't one right way to create a good character or tell a good story, and that the whole 'diversity character = bad' narrative needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

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Why do we need to know our models sexual preference? The only time I see it mattering is if they have themed abilities that are given rerference to it, and on top of that, generally it's just like, "alluring gaze", which is already generic.

Here's the potential problem, if a character is made gay for the sake of adding a gay character, no matter how well written, they will always be known as a character added because people complained. That will become that models legacy,  because it will be seen as forced on to the designers instead of natural. Even if it is a natural design, the fact that people constantly bring this up in games (overwatch), they will still be labeled "that character".

I'm in the realm of, these character shoot, stab, maul each other in a game, why do they even need a sexuality. What players do in their own time I don't care, go screw a dude, gal, rose bush, car, radio, whatever,  but don't bring these into games about scheming and murdering. Now if it was a story telling game where relationships matter, then it can be brought up.

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Astrella   
49 minutes ago, Kaptain_Konrad said:

Why do we need to know our models sexual preference? The only time I see it mattering is if they have themed abilities that are given rerference to it, and on top of that, generally it's just like, "alluring gaze", which is already generic.

Here's the potential problem, if a character is made gay for the sake of adding a gay character, no matter how well written, they will always be known as a character added because people complained. That will become that models legacy,  because it will be seen as forced on to the designers instead of natural. Even if it is a natural design, the fact that people constantly bring this up in games (overwatch), they will still be labeled "that character".

I'm in the realm of, these character shoot, stab, maul each other in a game, why do they even need a sexuality. What players do in their own time I don't care, go screw a dude, gal, rose bush, car, radio, whatever,  but don't bring these into games about scheming and murdering. Now if it was a story telling game where relationships matter, then it can be brought up.

The relationships in the game do have impact though. Look at say Kirai / Francis, that has had quite a bit of story impact. People just considering straight relationships to be the default so they don't notice them.

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29 minutes ago, Astrella said:

The relationships in the game do have impact though. Look at say Kirai / Francis, that has had quite a bit of story impact. People just considering straight relationships to be the default so they don't notice them.

Is that the only one? I'm going to assume it isn't, but I'm also going to assume there isn't a whole lot either. But if it's only this one that's important, they still don't need to add other ones "just because."

No one from other games has answered why games about killing need to have all walks represented,  when the main focus is murdering or in this case scheming. I look at overwatch for the worst case of pandering where it didn't even need to be done. A game about going pew pew needed to have gay, autistic, and may be soon a trans character,  when the only other cases of straight characters where people who were married to or had kids. They even debated the gender of a robot. It gets brought up so much where it really doesn't. Also, keep in mind the majority of the world is straight, so it isn't strange for a game that has few references to sexual orientations or beyond friendship relationshios to not have gay/trans/attack helicopter character.

If the writers want to make one, good for them, but don't force them to fulfill some agenda. Lets not forget malifaux is already one of the most inclusive games out there that has strong female main characters and isn't just muscled armored men and scantily clad women.

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retnab   
10 minutes ago, Kaptain_Konrad said:

If the writers want to make one, good for them, but don't force them to fulfill some agenda.

As has been brought up multiple times in this thread, there's no forcing happening here, and there are already canonically gay characters (and at least one Master), so...

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3 minutes ago, retnab said:

As has been brought up multiple times in this thread, there's no forcing happening here, and there are already canonically gay characters (and at least one Master), so...

(Forgot about colette) Then why is this still being brought up? 

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1 minute ago, Astrella said:

Colette is gay? When was that revealed?

I thought i read that there was big hints with her and Cassandra. I havent read things on her, just i could have sworn people talked about it. I could be wrong.  Someone feel free to correct me.

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Ludvig   
21 minutes ago, Kaptain_Konrad said:

I thought i read that there was big hints with her and Cassandra. I havent read things on her, just i could have sworn people talked about it. I could be wrong.  Someone feel free to correct me.

There might be some hint of Cassandra not caring for men I think. Not sure which story but it's one of the Colette ones in m2e. 

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retnab   
25 minutes ago, Kaptain_Konrad said:

(Forgot about colette) Then why is this still being brought up? 

Not Colette, that we know of. And I don't know why this keeps being brought up, things die down in this thread and then we get someone leaping to "defend" the game (and Overwatch apparently, which isn't the least bit relevant to this but thanks for sharing I guess) from having gay characters again and implying we have total control over what the writers decide to write the characters doing.

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9 minutes ago, retnab said:

Not Colette, that we know of. And I don't know why this keeps being brought up, things die down in this thread and then we get someone leaping to "defend" the game (and Overwatch apparently, which isn't the least bit relevant to this but thanks for sharing I guess) from having gay characters again and implying we have total control over what the writers decide to write the characters doing.

I used overwatch as a single example to support that other games have gone through the same situation. I'm not defending the game from not including gay characters, I'm defending people trying to change what writers write. We don't have full control, but companies do tend to pander to people who spout enough, and there is where I have an issue.

I'm just going to head out and hopefully let this die out. I wish you all a good day.

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