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Clarificatiosn on Avra Cadavra in regards to Shieldbearers


InvokeChaos

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Morning Wyrdos!

So Avra Cadavra says: After reducing an enemy living or undead target to 0 wounds, summon a Flesh Construct into base contact with the target before it is removed and the model places no corpse markers.

Shieldbearer's Chosen ability says: If this model would be killed and it does not have a Soulbound Upgrade attached, it is not killed. It heals all damage and attaches a Soulbound upgrade ignoring all restrictions, then places a Corpse Marker in base contact with itself.

What happens when the Shieldbearer is Expunged when Chosen hasn't been triggered yet?

The Shieldbearer is never removed, and Avra Cadavra specifically says place the Flesh Construct before the target is removed. So would you not place the Flesh Construct?

The first time in the game it happened, I thought that the Flesh Construct shouldn't be placed, but we rolled with it, he placed it, and I didn't place a corpse marker. It really didn't matter at that point (though I should have asked for a ruling then. I was kind of in the moment with my own strategies at the time).  

The second time I DID ask for a ruling because I really felt like that might be unintended and just wanted clarification. Our judge said that in his opinion no corpse marker would be dropped and no Flesh Construct would be summoned, but because he wasn't 100% certain, he said just do both to make it fair, but I told him I would ask here.

So... do you still summon a Flesh Construct?

As far as the corpse marker, I thought Avra Cadavra said you don't drop one from dying... but it just says don't place. Chosen says then you place. My grey area is the timing on that. If everything is triggering at the time the model is reduced to 0 wounds, would you resolve Avra's stuff first... Here's where my head is at:

1) Model is reduced to 0 wounds.

2) Avra Cadavra's condition is met

3) Shieldbearer's Chosen checks for killed state and that condition is met

4) What resolves first and what affects what? Do I resolve all of Chosen's affects first?  Do I resolve all of Avra's first? If I resolve Chosen's first... then do I still get the corpse?  Does it not matter because Avra says the model places no corpse markers, so even though it hasn't resolved yet it still applies?

Not trying to argue one way or the other. Just making sure I got the nitty gritty down.

Thanks for your patience and help.

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Concerning the words "before removing the model", I'm going to like to my previous diatribe concerning that phrasing:

"before removing" IS NOT a statement which changes timing, it's a reminder and an attempt to avoid silly arguments.

So the model gets reduced to 0, generates an abomination, and the effect that prevents its death prevents it being removed from the table.

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7 minutes ago, solkan said:

Concerning the words "before removing the model", I'm going to like to my previous diatribe concerning that phrasing:

"before removing" IS NOT a statement which changes timing, it's a reminder and an attempt to avoid silly arguments.

So the model gets reduced to 0, generates an abomination, and the effect that prevents its death prevents it being removed from the table.

That is literally perfect and I appreciate such a thorough response.  My apologies for missing this post when I searched!

 

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