Warding Runes with no mages.

[WWHSD]

I'm curious how often folks find themselves taking Warding Runes when there are no Oxfordian Mages in the crew. Even without the added benefits from the mages it seems like the upgrade might still be worth taking in the right circumstances. 

If you do bring Warding Runes sans  mage, when do you do it?

[retnab]

If I'm playing without Oxfordians, then only really if I'm fighting against Ressers.  Guaranteeing that Ironsides or your Henchman won't be Lured away can be worth that 1ss.

[spooky_squirrel]

Counterspell/Countermagic (stripping built in suits) is priceless if you're expecting being targeted with things that require built in suits. Rotten Belles are a great example, but it also takes the extra sting out of other models (including masters) that use casting effects. If you have no reason to expect your opponent to be messing with your Henchman or Ironsides and you're not bringing any Oxfordian Mages with Wards, you might use that slot and stone for something more situationally valuable for your meta.

[mythicFOX]

Given the range of things the runes protect you against are very specific you need to be more or less sure that taking them will have a significant impact on the game before they're worth taking.   The only faction that makes sense against is probably Ressers, even then it may end up not doing anything.

That said it can be a game winner if you end up facing someone who's core plan is to lure stuff in then kill it.

So something for the time you have a good read on where your opponent is going in crew selection IMO.

[Jordon]

Yeah this ability could just be reworded to "this model is immune to lure" as it seems like that is the biggest benefit. Outside of that it's uses swing wildly

Overall I actually really dislike counter spell. I really wish it disallowed triggers, put Ca on or reduced the overall duel total for Ca actions instead of stripping built in suits. The majority of offensive Ca actions simply don't care and those that do often find different targets. Using Raspy and Ramos for as long as I have I can count on 1 hand the amount of times counterspell has actually made any sort of difference.

I wouldn't bother taking warding runes (without mages) unless there is a high chance of seeing belles. Otherwise imbued energies is almost guaranteed to be the better pick.

[Adran]

15 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Yeah this ability could just be reworded to "this model is immune to lure" as it seems like that is the biggest benefit. Outside of that it's uses swing wildly

Overall I actually really dislike counter spell. I really wish it disallowed triggers, put Ca on or reduced the overall duel total for Ca actions instead of stripping built in suits. The majority of offensive Ca actions simply don't care and those that do often find different targets. Using Raspy and Ramos for as long as I have I can count on 1 hand the amount of times counterspell has actually made any sort of difference.

I wouldn't bother taking warding runes (without mages) unless there is a high chance of seeing belles. Otherwise imbued energies is almost guaranteed to be the better pick.

Hmm, I thought Counterspell was really annoying to tina, as you are now unlikely to meet a trigger, and have probably spent a stone on casting decembers curse

I'll admit that Ramos doesn't often cast electrical fire, but he does really hurt for tomes and stones so I'd be surprised if he tried to cast it against a model with counter spell. 

For me it does change how I plan my targets, because there is a huge difference between an attack that just needs a number to hit, and one which needs a set suit to work. I hope my Spells from those 2 masters are going to hit with minimal support from my hand, and unless I drew the hand to support it, or the target was a really high priority, counterspell would be enough to put me off targeting that model. 

[BFOmega]

23 minutes ago, Adran said:

Hmm, I thought Counterspell was really annoying to tina, as you are now unlikely to meet a trigger, and have probably spent a stone on casting decembers curse

I'll admit that Ramos doesn't often cast electrical fire, but he does really hurt for tomes and stones so I'd be surprised if he tried to cast it against a model with counter spell.

Pretty sure he's talking about them as the ones having counterspell (Raspy on card, Ramos on Under Pressure upgrade)

 

[Adran]

In which case he probably isn't seeing the effect those counter spells are having on the opponents plans. Its one of those abilities that only ahs an effect on the opponets plans, so you may never notice that it has done anything. 

But I rarely have enough spare upgarde slots that I would consider warding runes above things like Imbued energies as a pick unless I knew for sure I was facing an offensive caster. 

[spooky_squirrel]

27 minutes ago, Adran said:

In which case he probably isn't seeing the effect those counter spells are having on the opponents plans. Its one of those abilities that only ahs an effect on the opponets plans, so you may never notice that it has done anything. 

But I rarely have enough spare upgarde slots that I would consider warding runes above things like Imbued energies as a pick unless I knew for sure I was facing an offensive caster. 

I find it priceless against certain opponents because I know that they're trying to manipulate my crew and make things happen--after our games we talk about things that came into play and what would have made them change their plans and what did make them change their plans. With control crews that have obey-like effects, lures, and those that rely on suits to make attacks or complete triggers (such as a double tome on Raspy's Curse trigger), counter spell is a nightmare; it screws up everything. Against crews that aren't using these things, it's just words on a card; it might as well be flavor text.

[Jordon]

I feel like if you know what your opponent is bringing, then yeah you can definitely get use from it or at least dictate the opponents choices enough to call it beneficial.

However Malifaux doesn't often play out that way (which is an awesome thing about this game) and you may invest in warding runes only to face Lady J, Perdita, Vics, or any support master/summoner in which case counter spell will do nothing. Having it only work against offensive Ca actions is so limiting and even among those select few, stripping suits doesn't always have any impact on their abilities.

At least for Raspy you aren't paying for counter spell and Ramos gets other abilities in addition to counter spell so you can justify it. However having to pay 1ss and an upgrade slot for an ability that will have any sort of impact on such a small percentage of models just doesn't seem like a smart investment. Especially when you have imbued energies which will basically guarantee some benefit.

[spooky_squirrel]

^ which is why the answer boils down to "what do you expect to run into" as it applies to your local meta. If you've got belles galore or are getting hammered by spell effects constantly, it's one soulstone that can cause your local meta to shift. After a few times of using it without at least one mage, its value will go down again because your opponents will have changed the way they play into you and you'll find that that one stone might be better used for something else.

The threat of it can help keep people honest, but sometimes your opponent isn't going to care. Your henchman (or Ironsides) might be nigh-untouchable, but they're not doing all the work by themselves.

Of course, as soon as you add at least one Oxfordian, you get additional benefits, which changes the conversation entirely, but is outside the scope of the question.