Guild vs. Specific Ramos Setup

[Legislat]

Hello. I need some advice on a specific encounter.

Extraction, Flank deployment

Claim Jump, Undercover Entourage, Dig Their Graves, Set Up, Eliminate the Leadership.

90% chance the opponent will pick Ramos.

His most used setup is as follows:

Ramos

-Electric Summoning

-Seize the Day.

-Arcane Reservoir

Brass Arachnid

Howard Langston

-Imbued Energies

McTavish

-Imbued Energies

Lazarus

Performer

The map has lots of terrain , but all the pieces are not that large and LOS lines can be drawn almost freely across the board. 

The actual game have alredy been played, and i lost horribly. Main mistake was taking Lucius i guess. Never had any chance to do anything in my favor.

After the game i just kept thinking about this game, but i cant quite grasp the right crew to challenge those range monsters of his.

Extraction is easily done by spiders, Claim jump is easy as pie in the other corner and i cant quite get to the main points before dying from Tavish or Lazarus. 

Any ideas?

[Franchute]

Have you tried Perdita against his list?

It seems that his plan is to get you stuck in melee with spiders and then Sh you. Try not to fall into it.

[4thstringer]

Which masters do you have or have experience with?   I think I would try to use Lucius against this (because I am a big Lucius fan), but I would like to see what you are working with.

Edit: you know what McTavish hates?  It will only work half the time (if he has to set up first), but if you bring 2 traps, and put them on either side of McTavish, it becomes very hard to for your opponent to get his points worth out of that 12 stone model.

[Legislat]

I have everything guild has except Thralls and Guild Marshal Recruiters. My most played masters are Hoffman, Nellie and Doug, Lucius after them. I think my list with Lucius was not really good (and i also was not really sure about avoding 10% possibility of him choosing Marcus). 

Phiona and Dopelganger did nothing, rest of my crew were just killed from the safe distance and finished by ramming Howard. At least i was able to kill him back granting me the total of 1 point for the game)

Franchute, I think Perdita could work, but i cant quite guess the party composition. 

[Legislat]

I had traps, but i had to deploy first. Damn.

[4thstringer]

1 minute ago, Legislat said:

I have everything guild has except Thralls and Guild Marshal Recruiters. My most played masters are Hoffman, Nellie and Doug, Lucius after them. I think my list with Lucius was not really good (and i also was not really sure about avoding 10% possibility of him choosing Marcus). 

Phiona and Dopelganger did nothing, rest of my crew were just killed from the safe distance and finished by ramming Howard. At least i was able to kill him back granting me the total of 1 point for the game)

Franchute, I think Perdita could work, but i cant quite guess the party composition. 

Well, it is definitely a list that could shoot you off the table given the wrong terrain.  The McTav takes away what would be my solution for dealing with Howard (shooting him off the table).   I agree with Franchute, Perdita would go a long way towards taking out those big threats, and would deal with Laz's armor well.  But I think I would use Nellie.  Nellie giving out fast means that you should be able to get to those shooters and trade up pretty well.  Burt and Johan are both super cheap for their damage output (especially with DttG).  Both Howard and Laz do not want any part of Johan.  Your own McTav with Dttg is more scary than theirs.  I find lists with a few big beaters and then depending on summons do not like what Nellie can do to them first turn.   If your opponent is too aggressive with McTav, use either hot off the presses or propaganda to push him into your forces, and you will have an easy first turn charge on him.  His gun is scary, but it isn't that scary.  If you can deal with McTav before he can get his big scaries to you, then the game should start to get easier at that point.

There is the option of trying to get after Ramos turn 1.  The idea being if you can slow down the spider summoning, your opponent is going to have to run schemes with a master.  And since Eliminate is in the pool, you would be working towards your schemes too.  A list with the emissary, nellie, papa, frank, and grimwell can put a fast grimwell into your opponents face dropping plus flipped lobotomies first turn.  

Finally, if you have the Pathfinder, and a doppelganger in a Lucius list, it shouldn't be hard to start trapping McTav on the first turn. 

[Tris]

@4thstringer

How do you get McTavish with the from the shadows deployed Traps?

I think that setup is highly terrain dependant, isn't it?

[Ludvig]

If they deploy McTavish first you should be able to deploy two traps so he can hardly move forward at all without being engaged.

Youcan also move taps with your pathfinder.

[Tris]

14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If they deploy McTavish first you should be able to deploy two traps so he can hardly move forward at all without being engaged.

Youcan also move taps with your pathfinder.

Sure, but McTavish has easy access to a 3" and 4" push per turn, and if the pathfinder can place the traps, McTavis should be able to shoot him - it can work for sure (on a terrain heavy board in particular, where the two traps...well...trap them in their deployment zone^^), but I´m not sure that it`s THE way to handle McTavish

[InvokeChaos]

I second the nellie bump. Burt can be given debt and then fasted and reckless to do stupid good things. Austringers don't need line of sight to McTavish and ignore his cover shenanigans. Yeah they are low damage, but a fast austringer still puts pressure and they are accurate enough to warrant some cheating or stone use to keep McTavish up... and that's wins for you. Anything that makes your opponent have to change their game plan and react to your situation instead of vice versa. Alternatively they can be used for that extra push to line up a charge. Just remember that while nellie can pitch cards and evidence to force activations, if he gets 3 spiders turn 1, he still has 9 models and a reactivate from the brass arachnid for 10 activations.  If you have the ability to wait that out and set up some blitzing models, you can severely swing the game.

I would also throw out a couple of other options to consider:

McMourning in guild isn't as strong as rezzers IMO... but his upgrade allows you to pass armor ignore to anyone, if memory serves.  Giving that to one of your high damage, high mobility/range models is ridiculous, especially with debt to the guild. McMourning himself also is incredibly mobile. He can bring Sebastian, which basically nukes spiders. If they get any poison on them really at all, and are within range of Sebastian's induction, they're toast. Especially considering there is no bleeding edge tech present in the list you presented.

As mentioned, Johan crushes constructs, but she also dies to McTavish/Lazarus fire pretty handily. If you can screen her... good times.

Armor is a thing. Lazarus can't ignore it, and neither can McTavish I believe. Howard and Spiders can't either. You have access to Ryle, Peacekeepers and Guardians (who also pass out defensive 2). Not saying it's the saving grace answer, but you can absolutely make use of it. Min dam 2 howard is much less scarier. Hoff Bubble?

You may not have Lazarus, but you have McTavish accessible. And your McTavish is better than his McTavish.

Sonnia - I know she doesn't bypass armor, but she can blast a ton of damage around and is a tough nut to crack at range.  You may not be able to nickle and dime Lazarus... but if you maintain your spacing, you can absolutely out blast Lazarus. And spiders without healing crumple to blasts. Especially if you take her summoning upgrade, this can swing the activation control in your favor. Plus she does have flame walls to block LoS... and that means no mass shooting from L&M. Probably more effective on the Laz as he is slow as molasses and would have to walk then shoot... which denies his bombardment. McT will just try to push out and keep it up, but at least you deny a possible free attack from him. 

[4thstringer]

3 hours ago, Tris said:

Sure, but McTavish has easy access to a 3" and 4" push per turn, and if the pathfinder can place the traps, McTavis should be able to shoot him - it can work for sure (on a terrain heavy board in particular, where the two traps...well...trap them in their deployment zone^^), but I´m not sure that it`s THE way to handle McTavish

He needs a marker to make any of that happen.  If you place the traps right,  it's going to be very hard to place the marker somewhere that he can push to.   If he can't push to the marker,  no gator snacks. 

[Tris]

My point is, that you have to stay 6" away from the enemy deployment zone, so plenty of space to drop a marker (I know that the Pathfinder can place them, but he has to activate to do so, and if he`s in range to do that he`s also in range to be shot at)

Also, Ramos himself can kill a trap quite efficiently if it`s such a big problem for his crew.

Still think it`s a good idea to bottle them in if the terrain allows for it

[Gnomezilla]

Hoffman, a Howard Langston of your own, vent steam, point and laugh at shooty list?

I can't ever resist running Hoffman against Ramos, since construct vs. construct is fun for everyone. Mind you, with all this talk of a brass arachnid on the other side of the table, I might be tempted to take emissary and death marshal as well, and ignore armor all day every day with free tomes.

[Tris]

15 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Hoffman, a Howard Langston of your own, vent steam, point and laugh at shooty list?

I can't ever resist running Hoffman against Ramos, since construct vs. construct is fun for everyone. Mind you, with all this talk of a brass arachnid on the other side of the table, I might be tempted to take emissary and death marshal as well, and ignore armor all day every day with free tomes.

How do you get these free tomes?

[Ludvig]

14 minutes ago, Tris said:

How do you get these free tomes?

Hoffman OSA:s the free tomes from the arachnid since he can borrow actions from any construct. The emissary could copy the reactivate and tomes if you bury the arachnid.

[Tris]

Just now, Ludvig said:

Hoffman OSA:s the free tomes from the arachnid since he can borrow actions from any construct. The emissary could copy the reactivate and tomes if you bury the arachnid.

Ramos Brass Arachnid?

Emissary can only copy actions from friendly models

Also I would suppose that the Brass Arachnid would be quite far in the back in a normal game?

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

He needs a marker to make any of that happen.  If you place the traps right,  it's going to be very hard to place the marker somewhere that he can push to.   If he can't push to the marker,  no gator snacks. 

Maybe not too hard, he just won't get to push as far af he wanta to shoot or charge.

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, Tris said:

Ramos Brass Arachnid?

Emissary can only copy actions from friendly models

Also I would suppose that the Brass Arachnid would be quite far in the back in a normal game?

Ah, too bad about the friendly part. Hoffman can get quite far up in no time but I can't remember the range on OSA. If he actually wanted to I bet he could copy it easily.

[Tris]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Hoffman can get quite far up in no time but I can't remember the range on OSA. If he actually wanted to I bet he could copy it easily.

Yeah, but then he`s probably dead too

[Gnomezilla]

Which is where the death marshal (and a friendly scheme marker in the back line) comes into play. Have I mentioned yet that I love copying actions?

[PositronMike]

I would be very tempted to take Hoffman against that Ramos list. Include a Rail Golem and a Peacekeeper and you will be able to take care off the scary models pretty easily. A power looped Rail Golem with Debt to the Guild will just munch McTavish and Langston, possibly both in the same activation depending on positioning and s for locomotion. The Peace Keeper and Hoffman can also mess up Lazarus day, the peace keeper will drag him in and the Hoffman can start punching him (stone for the trigger to ignore armor). If you have a Metal Gamin (which I always take with Hoffman) then you can get two Magnetisms off on Lazarus which will also help Hoffman get in position to hit him.

Also I don't see where Ramos is making scrap from on the first turn which means the wave of spiders is actually slowed down.

[InvokeChaos]

11 minutes ago, PositronMike said:

Also I don't see where Ramos is making scrap from on the first turn which means the wave of spiders is actually slowed down.

Yeah I noticed that too... normally I see a joss or something with eletric creation getting nuked.

@Legislat just for my own curiosity, what is your opponent's scrap generator?  am I just missing something from the list?

[Gnomezilla]

Think Ramos' opening turn is summon creation, magnetize creation, electrical fire creation, summon. Chancy, for flank deployment.

Or he may be a complete nutter who uses the brass arachnid and then disposes of it since it wouldn't catch up to the action again until turn three or four.

[PositronMike]

34 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Think Ramos' opening turn is summon creation, magnetize creation, electrical fire creation, summon. Chancy, for flank deployment.

Or he may be a complete nutter who uses the brass arachnid and then disposes of it since it wouldn't catch up to the action again until turn three or four.

He can't summon a creation and magnetise it in the same activation. He could electrical fire it twice but that seems to be a waste of AP and Ramos wouldn't be any further forward. 

He could be using the arachnid after it has given Howard and Laz reactivate but that seems a waste. 

 

[InvokeChaos]

Wait he can summon an electric creation? *goes and reads what the heck electrical summoning actually does*

Well by jove, I don't know why I've never seen that upgrade taken before. Unless you are going hard melee or something, it seems like summoning an eletric creation is better than hiring one!
 

14 minutes ago, PositronMike said:

He can't summon a creation and magnetise it in the same activation. He could electrical fire it twice but that seems to be a waste of AP and Ramos wouldn't be any further forward. 

He could be using the arachnid after it has given Howard and Laz reactivate but that seems a waste. 

 

Yeah but if he hits moderate (through cheating or what not) he one shots electric. So he could theoretically move up, summon, shoot, summon. Just would be potentially card intensive.