Ashes and Dust and Set Up schemme

[ArD]

The set up sceme description states following: When you choose this Scheme, note down an enemy Master, Henchman, or Enforcer model. Once per game, at the end of any Turn, this Crew may reveal this Scheme to score a number of VP equal to the number of this Crew’s Scheme Markers within 4” of the noted enemy model. Then remove all of this Crew’s Scheme Markers within 4” of the noted enemy model.

Ashes and Dust have been selected for the schemme. The markers were planted within 4” of it. After that the Ashes and Dust was sacrificed by Leveticus and Ashen Core and Dust Storm were summoned.

The Dust Storm used its (0) action, sacrificed itself, and summoned  Ashes and Dust in base contact with it at the end of the turn.

Can the VP for the Set Up be scored? Is the A&D the same model which have been noted at the begining of the game or other(summoned) model?

Is the approach the same as in  Quick Murder and in Frame for Murder?

 

[Joel]

Its a newly summoned model.

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, SurreyLee said:

As it's a rare 1, does this apply? Is there only 1 Ashes and Dust?

 

Doesn't matter. Summoning a new ashes and Dust (or Izamu) is mechanically a new model from the old one. Anything which applied to the old one does not apply to the new one, anymore than anything that applied to a Teddy that was killed would apply to a newly summoned Teddy.  In a similar way It is possible to Activate Ikyryo or Chompybits multiple times in a turn because each time they are summoned they are a new model. It doesn't matter that a rare 1 chompybits had already actrivated, the summoned model is a new model.

[Dogmantra]

33 minutes ago, SurreyLee said:

Actually, the wording on the summon, if nothing else does make it clear. Summon AN Ashes and Dust. If there was supposed to be a singular model it would say Summon Ashes and Dust. The "AN" makes the difference, I believe. 

It's the fact it's a summon that makes the difference. "Summoning creates a new model" is the first sentence of the summoning rules on pg 51 big rulebook.

[Adran]

I would say No, it doesn't work. The Ashes and Dust that is on the table after the reformationn is not the same as the Ashes and dust that started the game. 

If the enemy crew contained 3 sabertooth cerberii  you would have to specify which one, so even though Ashes and Dust is Unique (rare 1) you still have to specify which one, and if a new one is summoned its not the same model. 

I think this applies to all scheemes which specify a model

[Joel]

1 hour ago, SurreyLee said:

As it's a rare 1, does this apply? Is there only 1 Ashes and Dust?

 

rare limit has no bearing on this.  It's not the same model in the same way that a summoned punk zombie from the corpse marker of a previous punk zombie isn't the same model

[Adran]

37 minutes ago, SurreyLee said:

I understand the rule, perhaps my gripe was with the rule itself. If something is rare, it seems a bit gamey to say you are summoning a whole new model that is totally different to the old one. More significantly when it IS rare 1. Summoning from a corpse marker is different as that's a pile of bones/flesh, but in the case of Ashes, it's rare, it buries and unburies and while conditions and wounds are lost it is effectively the same model as it HAS to be the same model as there is only 1....being rare 1. It's more a thematic gripe I have rather than disagreeing with the interpretation of the rules.

 

Drifting from the rules and heading for fluff....

Rare 1 and Unique are not the same (although unique no longer exists in the rules). It is possible for non-unique creatures (for example lelu) to be rare 1 because you don't see more than 1 at any given time.  I can't remember the stories of Ashes and dust, but  there are many dust storms in a dessert. 

And I think it probably largely came around from a rules point of view to make them a little worse, as things like bodyguard on Izamu or Ashes and Dust that you could re-summon would be pretty easy points. 

Of course VPs themselves are very gamy by nature. You are doing an abstract thing to win the game. Your "story" for the Set up could be very different depending on what you have targeted, so perhaps you are arranging to try and rescue something from Ashes and Dust, that has been broken/buried as it went through its reformation, so your "trap "no longer works. 

[SurreyLee]

Actually, the wording on the summon, if nothing else does make it clear. Summon AN Ashes and Dust. If there was supposed to be a singular model it would say Summon Ashes and Dust. The "AN" makes the difference, I believe. 

[Adran]

15 minutes ago, Richard matthews said:

given the fact that you attach an upgrade previously attached to the ashes and dust would suggest to me its the same model, as it is the same CORE (see what I did there) model.

I see what you did, but its still wrong. You have summoned a new model. From the rules, summoning creates a new model even if it creates it from the parts of the old model. To count you would need a line similar to McCabe to transfer schemes that target him when he gets off his horse. 

[Ludvig]

On 2017-06-26 at 2:05 PM, SurreyLee said:

I understand the rule, perhaps my gripe was with the rule itself. If something is rare, it seems a bit gamey to say you are summoning a whole new model that is totally different to the old one. More significantly when it IS rare 1. Summoning from a corpse marker is different as that's a pile of bones/flesh, but in the case of Ashes, it's rare, it buries and unburies and while conditions and wounds are lost it is effectively the same model as it HAS to be the same model as there is only 1....being rare 1. It's more a thematic gripe I have rather than disagreeing with the interpretation of the rules.

 

You can't score bodyguard since it's a new A&D so it goes both ways.

If it was the same model coming back the A&D reform rules wouldn't need to specify that you could attach the same upgrade. 

[Seadhna]

On 8/1/2017 at 11:49 AM, Richard matthews said:

given the fact that you attach an upgrade previously attached to the ashes and dust would suggest to me its the same model, as it is the same CORE (see what I did there) model.

except the rules clearly state that it is a new model

[SurreyLee]

As it's a rare 1, does this apply? Is there only 1 Ashes and Dust?

 

[SurreyLee]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Doesn't matter. Summoning a new ashes and Dust (or Izamu) is mechanically a new model from the old one. Anything which applied to the old one does not apply to the new one, anymore than anything that applied to a Teddy that was killed would apply to a newly summoned Teddy.  In a similar way It is possible to Activate Ikyryo or Chompybits multiple times in a turn because each time they are summoned they are a new model. It doesn't matter that a rare 1 chompybits had already actrivated, the summoned model is a new model.

I understand the rule, perhaps my gripe was with the rule itself. If something is rare, it seems a bit gamey to say you are summoning a whole new model that is totally different to the old one. More significantly when it IS rare 1. Summoning from a corpse marker is different as that's a pile of bones/flesh, but in the case of Ashes, it's rare, it buries and unburies and while conditions and wounds are lost it is effectively the same model as it HAS to be the same model as there is only 1....being rare 1. It's more a thematic gripe I have rather than disagreeing with the interpretation of the rules.

 

[ArD]

29 minutes ago, SurreyLee said:

I understand the rule, perhaps my gripe was with the rule itself. If something is rare, it seems a bit gamey to say you are summoning a whole new model that is totally different to the old one. More significantly when it IS rare 1. Summoning from a corpse marker is different as that's a pile of bones/flesh, but in the case of Ashes, it's rare, it buries and unburies and while conditions and wounds are lost it is effectively the same model as it HAS to be the same model as there is only 1....being rare 1. It's more a thematic gripe I have rather than disagreeing with the interpretation of the rules.

 

If I am correct in accordance with lore the ashen core is the constant part and dust storm is variable part of ashes and dust. So A&D=A+D, where A=const and D=f(x). Therefore A&D=A+f(x).

Yes, it is rare 1, but it is not the same.

If the game designers were going to underline that the model is the same, I think, that they would have choosen the bury mechanics insted of sacrifice (kill)/summon(which is used now).

[solkan]

6 hours ago, SurreyLee said:

Actually, the wording on the summon, if nothing else does make it clear. Summon AN Ashes and Dust. If there was supposed to be a singular model it would say Summon Ashes and Dust. The "AN" makes the difference, I believe. 

There are actually two important facts.  The fact that it says "Summon an Ashes and Dust" is one.  The other is the Summoning rules:

Quote

Summoning creates a new model. The model is placed within range of the effect (most often an Action’s range). If it is not possible to place the model because of other models or terrain, the effect that caused the summon fails.

There are situations like Lucas McCabe/Dismounted McCabe where the summoned model gets treated as if it were the same as some previous model, but that all has to be spelled out on the cards to happen.

When the Dreamer summons Lord Chompy Bits, each Lord Chompy Bits is a new Lord Chompy Bits.  Each time Kirai summons Ikiryou, it's a new Ikiryou, not the previous model sent through the recycling process.  As far as the game mechanics are concerned, all a "Rare 1" limit means is "No more than 1 at a time", it's not "Only 1 ever."

 

[Richard matthews]

given the fact that you attach an upgrade previously attached to the ashes and dust would suggest to me its the same model, as it is the same CORE (see what I did there) model.