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edopersichetti

Collodi controlled AP

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Hi all! I just have a (perhaps silly) doubt about Collodi's controlled AP, specifically via his 2 triggers on Pull the Strings. It seems like in both cases the enemy models performs a 1AP action controlled by the opposing player. Does this mean the opposing player (i.e. Collodi's player) also gets to flip for the model, decide whether or not to cheat, and how, etc.?

If the 1AP action chosen is an attack, it seems pretty obvious to me that the answer to the question is yes, but what if the action is a Walk that generates a Disengaging Strike for example? Does Collodi's player then flips for both models (the model with the controlled AP and the model which is performing the disengaging strike)?

Thanks!

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3 hours ago, katadder said:

Never thought of this part, interesting.

although to be honest I usually just get them to target my widow weaver so get a paralyse out

Solkan worded that a little weirdly, but it's for if your own model is being obeyed to attack another of yours. It's the defending model's choice to relent or not.

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FAQ:

8) If an opposing Crew is temporarily controlling a model, which Crew cheats/spends Soulstones for it? The Crew which controls the model cheats and spends any Soulstones for the model.

So yeah, whoever is controlling the model does the flipping and cheating, regardless of the action being performed.

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16 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

If the 1AP action chosen is an attack, it seems pretty obvious to me that the answer to the question is yes, but what if the action is a Walk that generates a Disengaging Strike for example? Does Collodi's player then flips for both models (the model with the controlled AP and the model which is performing the disengaging strike)?

Note that doing a disengaging strike is optional (pg 49, small rulebook).

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If you need a reference for the interaction with Obey like actions, it's the 'Friendly and Enemy' rules.  That's page 31, the big M2E book, and page 23 in the rules manual.  The rules which say that Collodi making the model perform an Action doesn't change its "side".

Note the two implications of the model's friends not changing:

  • In order to relent, the target has to be friendly to the attacker.  Being controlled by the same player isn't sufficient.
  • In order to get a disengaging strike, the model that declares the Walk has to be enemy.  Being controlled by another player isn't sufficient.

There are some models whose disengaging strikes cause damage or have other useful side effects, so it's possible that you'd want to use Pull the Strings to declare a Walk and then declare disengaging strikes.  Or if you set up some models with Df:Wp :meleeand have Sorrows nearby, trying to set up more failed Wp duels, or something similar.

But if you use Pull the Strings to make an enemy model perform a Walk, the enemy crew can't declare disengaging strikes to stop the model.  Because it's not an enemy model to them.

Note also that if you make the model attack another model on the same crew, the smart thing to do is often to just relent because that puts the attack at a tie (and thus :-fate:-fate on the damage flip) if there aren't any scary attack triggers (like Decapitate) to avoid.

 

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If you Force a model to walk, then enemy models to it will get to make disengaging strikes.  In your exampel Collodi's player will get to flip (and cheat) for the attack from Hinamatsu and also for the defense of the model, but he can't choose to relent because it isn't an attack from a friendly model.

 

Solkans advice about relenting will only apply if you Obey an enemy model to attack a model that is friendy to it, so you as the obeyer is controlling the attack, and your opponent is controllign the defending model and can choose to make the defending model relent. (So you as the person controlling the attacking  model would flip for the attack. Your opponent would be flipping for the defence, but as it is an attack from a friendly model they can choose to relent, and so not flip). 

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33 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Thanks for your response. Yes, what I was thinking was for example this: suppose Hinamatsu (in Collodi's crew) is engaged with an enemy. Collodi uses Pull the Strings on enemy and forces him to walk, then Hinamatsu declares a disengaging strike. So who is flipping in this case? Does the Collodi player flip for both Hinamatsu's attack AND the enemy's defense? And does Collodi's player get to cheat/decide not to cheat/relent? If so, this could be really interesting, since Hinamatsu now has Wicked and could deal damage + stack condition.

Yep, the Collodi player flips for both models, including cheating, because you control both models.  That's the case whether you're controlling the action from the My Bidding trigger, or as a result of the A New Thread condition.

Note that you can't relent a disengaging strike because

  • Disengaging strikes require the walking model be an enemy model.
  • Relenting requires the attacker be a friendly model.

and I don't think you can achieve that combination in the game at the moment.  Even the neutral model rules in the story encounters I checked are just "enemy to both players".

To put it all together:

Player A has Collodi and Hinamatsu, Player B has Allison Dade engaging Hinamatsu.  Fast forward to the point where Player A makes Allison Dade declare a Walk.  Hinamatsu declares a Disengaging Strike, so Player A flips Hinamatsu's attack and flips Allison Dade's defense, and does all of the cheating/not cheating for both models.  But Dade can't relent because Hinamatsu is an enemy model.

 

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10 hours ago, solkan said:

 

Note also that if you make the model attack another model on the same crew, the smart thing to do is often to just relent because that puts the attack at a tie (and thus :-fate:-fate on the damage flip) if there aren't any scary attack triggers (like Decapitate) to avoid.

 

Never thought of this part, interesting.

although to be honest I usually just get them to target my widow weaver so get a paralyse out

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On 6/26/2017 at 0:30 AM, solkan said:

If you need a reference for the interaction with Obey like actions, it's the 'Friendly and Enemy' rules.  That's page 31, the big M2E book, and page 23 in the rules manual.  The rules which say that Collodi making the model perform an Action doesn't change its "side".

Note the two implications of the model's friends not changing:

  • In order to relent, the target has to be friendly to the attacker.  Being controlled by the same player isn't sufficient.
  • In order to get a disengaging strike, the model that declares the Walk has to be enemy.  Being controlled by another player isn't sufficient.

There are some models whose disengaging strikes cause damage or have other useful side effects, so it's possible that you'd want to use Pull the Strings to declare a Walk and then declare disengaging strikes.  Or if you set up some models with Df:Wp :meleeand have Sorrows nearby, trying to set up more failed Wp duels, or something similar.

But if you use Pull the Strings to make an enemy model perform a Walk, the enemy crew can't declare disengaging strikes to stop the model.  Because it's not an enemy model to them.

Note also that if you make the model attack another model on the same crew, the smart thing to do is often to just relent because that puts the attack at a tie (and thus :-fate:-fate on the damage flip) if there aren't any scary attack triggers (like Decapitate) to avoid.

 

Thanks for your response. Yes, what I was thinking was for example this: suppose Hinamatsu (in Collodi's crew) is engaged with an enemy. Collodi uses Pull the Strings on enemy and forces him to walk, then Hinamatsu declares a disengaging strike. So who is flipping in this case? Does the Collodi player flip for both Hinamatsu's attack AND the enemy's defense? And does Collodi's player get to cheat/decide not to cheat/relent? If so, this could be really interesting, since Hinamatsu now has Wicked and could deal damage + stack condition.

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On 6/25/2017 at 10:08 PM, Nikodemus said:

Note that doing a disengaging strike is optional (pg 49, small rulebook).

Yes - I was thinking of disengaging strikes from my own crew, with Wicked in mind. So forcing a walk is just a way to get extra damage ;)

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On 6/25/2017 at 10:04 PM, Dogmantra said:

FAQ:

8) If an opposing Crew is temporarily controlling a model, which Crew cheats/spends Soulstones for it? The Crew which controls the model cheats and spends any Soulstones for the model.

So yeah, whoever is controlling the model does the flipping and cheating, regardless of the action being performed.

Very clear thanks. So does this include relent? The post by Solkan seems to imply not.

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

Yep, the Collodi player flips for both models, including cheating, because you control both models.  That's the case whether you're controlling the action from the My Bidding trigger, or as a result of the A New Thread condition.

Note that you can't relent a disengaging strike because

  • Disengaging strikes require the walking model be an enemy model.
  • Relenting requires the attacker be a friendly model.

and I don't think you can achieve that combination in the game at the moment.  Even the neutral model rules in the story encounters I checked are just "enemy to both players".

To put it all together:

Player A has Collodi and Hinamatsu, Player B has Allison Dade engaging Hinamatsu.  Fast forward to the point where Player A makes Allison Dade declare a Walk.  Hinamatsu declares a Disengaging Strike, so Player A flips Hinamatsu's attack and flips Allison Dade's defense, and does all of the cheating/not cheating for both models.  But Dade can't relent because Hinamatsu is an enemy model.

 

Perfect, thanks!

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Today we had a case in wich collodi made Yasunori charge for 1ap to Asami (because of her Oni's Wrath) making 1wound to asami in adition to the charge attacks 🤦

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8 hours ago, Tzen said:

Today we had a case in wich collodi made Yasunori charge for 1ap to Asami (because of her Oni's Wrath) making 1wound to asami in adition to the charge attacks 🤦

And this is why we put smoke grenades on Yasunori

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