Pandora, Tara, and Candy Activation order weirdness

[ringsnake]

The setup:

Nothing Beast is within 3" of Candy

Tara activated first in turn, to get reactivate after all other models in her crew activate.

Pandy (though any model could have) dropped 'Nobody Loves me' on Nothing Beast to force it to activate after all other models

The weirdness:

Nothing Beast forced to activate last, so takes three points of damage, but now Nothing Beast is last model in crew to activate, so Tara gets reactivate, so now Nothing Beast not last model in Tara crew to activate.

Does Nothing Beast take three points of damage from Candy's 'sours' for being the last model in crew to activate? We decided that 'no' it was not the last model, but there's some bizarro timing and rules interactions in there, since it was the last model that my opponent activated before Tara's end of turn thingamy triggered, so we decided it was one for the rules lawyers.

This lost me the game, had the Nothing Beast died, I would have mopped the floor with what was left of Tara's crew, since it didn't die, it killed Candy when I was relying on her to survive, and the Beast to die instead.

 

[Adran]

I had never considered the Sours timing before, it leads to some interestign outcomes doesn't it.

It appears to look at the board state at the time of activation, dealing the damage before the model gets to do anything. So if you activate your penultimate model in your crew, and then kill the the only model you have left to activate, sours would not apply.

As such I think Santa claws post about first player changing the results applies here. You should activate the Nothing Beast, and then the first player gets to apply abilities based on there being no more models to activate. If Candy is the first player, then Sours deals damage here (and can later deal damage to Tara), if Tara is the first player, thenm she gains reactivates, and so the nothing beast isn't the last model to activate when Candy checks sours. 

 

[Dogmantra]

47 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Since both affects are resolved at the start of activation

Eternal is actually resolved after the model is done activating.

Scratch that, I forgot you are considered to have activated as soon as you have begun your activation. Although assuming condition timing is the same as ability timing is a bit too much of an assumption imo.

[Bengt]

4 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Eternal is actually resolved after the model is done activating.

Scratch that, I forgot you are considered to have activated as soon as you have begun your activation. Although assuming condition timing is the same as ability timing is a bit too much of an assumption imo.

While I agree that we can't assume what timing conditions are supposed to have, I think @santaclaws01 have a point, the relative timing of Sours and Eternal is key to this question.

[Adran]

There will be a point in the game when the only model you can activate is the Nothing beast. You activate it, forfilling the criteria for nobody loves me. This Gives Tara Reactivate thanks to eternal, and then she activates a second time, meaning  the nothing beast isn't the last model to activate.

So you played it right, and have to remember that Candy is only powerful against Tara in Tara crews. 

[Dogmantra]

Regardless of whether Tara would activate after the Nothing Beast, it was the last model to activate for Tara's crew since Tara had already activated that turn. It would take the damage.

[ringsnake]

Jinx! Two perfectly reasonable, and opposite, answers to the question.

I think Tara's Eternal ability reads as 'after last model in her crew activates', which would imply that the Nothing Beast, for a brief moment in time, was the last model in her crew to activate; just before reactivate drops on Tara, and she becomes the last model in her crew to activate.

By that very rules lawyery reading, Candy's sours could damage both of them!

[Artiee]

They will both take the damage.   Reactivate is a may not a must.   They both were a the last model activated. 

[MrDeathTrout]

I would say the intent is that "the last model" is interpreted as "the model no other model activates after".  In this example that would be Tara, I see no reason she cannot be first to activate and last to activate.

You could interpret "last" like this:  Imaging three Ice Gamin standing in Candy's Sour's aura.  IG1 activates, and at this point it is the last model to activate this turn so takes 3 damage.   Neverborn player activates a model. IG2 activates, and at this point it is the last model to activate this turn so takes 3 damage.   Neverborn player activates a model. IG3 activates, and at this point it is the last model to activate this turn so takes 3 damage.  All three Ice Gamin were last to activate at some point.  This is obviously not what was meant, and I'd say its not far from any interpretation where Tara is not the last to activate.

[Dogmantra]

1 hour ago, MrDeathTrout said:

I would say the intent is that "the last model" is interpreted as "the model no other model activates after".  In this example that would be Tara, I see no reason she cannot be first to activate and last to activate.

I think we can all agree that "last" is being used to mean final, rather than previous as in your ice gamin example. Another way to phrase your interpretation would be "The model which takes the final activation". My interpretation is "the final model to take an activation" based on the fact that "last" in the text is modifying the word model, not the word activation.

[DXXXVIII]

(0) Eternal Moment: This Action may only be taken if this was the first friendly
model to Activate this Turn. This model gains the following Condition until the
end of the Turn: "Eternal: Once all other friendly models have Activated, this
model gains the Reactivate Condition."

Nobody Likes Me: This model
may not Activate while there are any other models
in its Crew without the Nobody Likes Me Condition
which may still Activate.”

Sooo... Tara cant  activate till she gets reactivate. So Nothing Beast can activate due to the fact that no other models can activate before Nothing beast activates. NOW Tara gains reactivate once nothingbeast activates.
She activates... she activates after Nothing beast as the last model activating...  seems clear to me.

[santaclaws01]

Just now, Dogmantra said:

Eternal is actually resolved after the model is done activating.

It says once all other friendly models have activated, and a model counts as having activated as soon as it starts it's activation, not once it's activation is over. (FAQ #43)

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, ringsnake said:

Thanks for hunting down the rules, and thanks also for putting a lot of different eyes and perspectives on it. While we're at it, here's the text of Sours and Reactivate:

Sours: If an enemy model Activates within
O3 of this model, and it is the last model in
its crew to Activate this Turn, it immediately
suffers 3 damage.

Reactivate
A model with the Reactivate Condition is available to
be Activated one additional time during this Turn, as if it
had not already taken its Activation.

A model may not benefit from the Reactivate
Condition more than once per Turn, even if it lost the
Reactivate Condition and then gained it again.

Note that Reactivate just says that the model gets to take another activation during the turn. Not during the Activation Phase!

Here's my thought after cogitating for a long while, and rewriting this several times:

We did it right the first time. Tara was the last model to activate that turn, but didn't gain reactivate until after the activation phase was complete. No matter how you cut it, with timing and strange rules interactions, Tara did end up being the last model in her crew to activate, and Tara wasn't forced to activate before the Nothing Beast, because she didn't have reactivate on her yet. The fact that Tara's rules are a horror show does not change the literal intent of what the designers wanted for each of those abilities, and that Tara did end up being the last model to activate that turn.

If Sours had said 'end of activation phase' instead of 'end of turn' it would have gone the other way around, and NB would have taken the 3 damage.

As has already been pointed out, she'll gain reactivate at the start of the nothing beasts activation. If she gained it outside the activation phase she would be unable to reactivate, as models may only activate during the activation phase. Additionally, Sours doesn't say "end of turn", and never actually checks for any potential future activations, just if there are any models left to activate. If models kept being unburied next to Candy for example, each one would be considered the last model to activate as far as Sours is concerned.

[santaclaws01]

9 hours ago, ringsnake said:

I did a copy and paste of the Sours rules text from the book, and can find no errata on her.

Okay, and so did I earlier. What specifically are you replying to? The part where I said it doesn't say "end of turn" anywhere in the text of the ability? Because it doesn't. Or is this in relation to my pointing out what "last model to activate" means in context?

[santaclaws01]

The eternal moment and nobody likes me interaction is pretty clear, it's the sours and eternal moment interaction that isn't(yet). So sours says "If an enemy model activates within 3 of this model, and it is the last model in its crew to activate this turn, it immediately suffers 3 damage." So the question comes to one of timing, does Tara get reactivate before Sours checks for if it's the last model to activate. Since both affects are resolved at the start of activation we have to refer to general timing(operating on the assumption that conditions will be lumped in with abilities, because otherwise we have nothing to work with here), it says the first player resolves all of their ability effects in any order the first player chooses, then the second player resolves theirs. So, if the Tara player is first player, Nothing Beast takes no damage, if the Candy player is the first player, Nothing Beast takes 3 damage.

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, Bengt said:

While I agree that we can't assume what timing conditions are supposed to have, I think @santaclaws01 have a point, the relative timing of Sours and Eternal is key to this question.

Yeah, it is a shaky basis, but really we have nothing to go on with them, and I think treating their timing as the same as ability timing would make the most sense as conditions and abilities have a lot of overlap already.

[ringsnake]

21 hours ago, DXXXVIII said:

(0) Eternal Moment: This Action may only be taken if this was the first friendly
model to Activate this Turn. This model gains the following Condition until the
end of the Turn: "Eternal: Once all other friendly models have Activated, this
model gains the Reactivate Condition."

Nobody Likes Me: This model
may not Activate while there are any other models
in its Crew without the Nobody Likes Me Condition
which may still Activate.”

Sooo... Tara cant  activate till she gets reactivate. So Nothing Beast can activate due to the fact that no other models can activate before Nothing beast activates. NOW Tara gains reactivate once nothingbeast activates.
She activates... she activates after Nothing beast as the last model activating...  seems clear to me.

Thanks for hunting down the rules, and thanks also for putting a lot of different eyes and perspectives on it. While we're at it, here's the text of Sours and Reactivate:

Sours: If an enemy model Activates within
O3 of this model, and it is the last model in
its crew to Activate this Turn, it immediately
suffers 3 damage.

Reactivate
A model with the Reactivate Condition is available to
be Activated one additional time during this Turn, as if it
had not already taken its Activation.

A model may not benefit from the Reactivate
Condition more than once per Turn, even if it lost the
Reactivate Condition and then gained it again.

Note that Reactivate just says that the model gets to take another activation during the turn. Not during the Activation Phase!

Here's my thought after cogitating for a long while, and rewriting this several times:

We did it right the first time. Tara was the last model to activate that turn, but didn't gain reactivate until after the activation phase was complete. No matter how you cut it, with timing and strange rules interactions, Tara did end up being the last model in her crew to activate, and Tara wasn't forced to activate before the Nothing Beast, because she didn't have reactivate on her yet. The fact that Tara's rules are a horror show does not change the literal intent of what the designers wanted for each of those abilities, and that Tara did end up being the last model to activate that turn.

If Sours had said 'end of activation phase' instead of 'end of turn' it would have gone the other way around, and NB would have taken the 3 damage.

[ringsnake]

39 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

As has already been pointed out, she'll gain reactivate at the start of the nothing beasts activation. If she gained it outside the activation phase she would be unable to reactivate, as models may only activate during the activation phase. Additionally, Sours doesn't say "end of turn", and never actually checks for any potential future activations, just if there are any models left to activate. If models kept being unburied next to Candy for example, each one would be considered the last model to activate as far as Sours is concerned.

I did a copy and paste of the Sours rules text from the book, and can find no errata on her.