Myyrä Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 Guild actually has pretty good amount of card draws. I don't know what the fuss is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 8 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said: Add something like this: Replace the sentence "If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed" with "If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is killed; resolve any triggers or actions that apply, then remove this model from the game as killed." This comes in under General Timing as well. Maybe "If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is killed. In addition, some effects directly kill a model without causing the model to suffer any damage. When a model is killed resolve any effects that apply, then remove this model from the game as killed if the model has not been healed or otherwise avoided death." Part of the problem with that rule is that it's too economically worded and leaves out interactions. But there'd still be a bit of ambiguity concerning the interaction with the After Step 5 triggers--do the dead wait, or does the trigger happen early? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 2 hours ago, solkan said: Maybe "If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is killed. In addition, some effects directly kill a model without causing the model to suffer any damage. When a model is killed resolve any effects that apply, then remove this model from the game as killed if the model has not been healed or otherwise avoided death." Part of the problem with that rule is that it's too economically worded and leaves out interactions. But there'd still be a bit of ambiguity concerning the interaction with the After Step 5 triggers--do the dead wait, or does the trigger happen early? You're right, I forgot about the "instead this model heals 1 wound and is not killed" effects. Definitely would need to do some kind of flowchart thing similar to other systems, where the last decision block is "if the model is still at 0 wounds, then it is removed from the game as killed" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinalForm Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 7 hours ago, Myyrä said: Guild actually has pretty good amount of card draws. I don't know what the fuss is about. Then help me with my Sonnia pls. I have big problems with all dat cards in my hand dissapearing faster then I expect( I'm using effigy now but that's the only way to lay my hands on that sweet cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 40 minutes ago, FinalForm said: Then help me with my Sonnia pls. I have big problems with all dat cards in my hand dissapearing faster then I expect( I'm using effigy now but that's the only way to lay my hands on that sweet cards. Four words: Debt to the Guild. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 Control hand use is one of those things that comes with practice and experience. You have access to the Wave 4 upgrades, which gives you Debt to the Guild. That upgrade has no real downside and gives you some card control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 15 hours ago, solkan said: Maybe "If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is killed. In addition, some effects directly kill a model without causing the model to suffer any damage. When a model is killed resolve any effects that apply, then remove this model from the game as killed if the model has not been healed or otherwise avoided death." Part of the problem with that rule is that it's too economically worded and leaves out interactions. But there'd still be a bit of ambiguity concerning the interaction with the After Step 5 triggers--do the dead wait, or does the trigger happen early? I would leave out the healed part as you can't heal a "dead" model. You would need an effect that both lets it avoid death and heals it so mentioning healing is misleading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 3 hours ago, Bengt said: I would leave out the healed part as you can't heal a "dead" model. You would need an effect that both lets it avoid death and heals it so mentioning healing is misleading. Actually, I kind of like the part in Warmachine/Hordes where you can heal a dead model to cancel "killed". So I was sneaking it in intentionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 31 minutes ago, solkan said: Actually, I kind of like the part in Warmachine/Hordes where you can heal a dead model to cancel "killed". So I was sneaking it in intentionally. Trying to turn us back to First edition. Subtle. I can still recall all those complicated slow to die questions. We have so few occasions for healing to happen at at a time that would matter, and very few none 0 wound death effects that i'm feeling you would need a major overhaul to add it in. On Card Draw, Effigy plus Sonnia is probably one of the greatest Card draw engines in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot4Perdita Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 One thing I'd like to see change is to allow you to burn a soulstone for a suit after the card is flipped, not before. That way you don't waste the stone if you don't need to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Loki- Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Hot4Perdita said: One thing I'd like to see change is to allow you to burn a soulstone for a suit after the card is flipped, not before. That way you don't waste the stone if you don't need to. The risk is part of the point. Triggers are powerful, so there's an inherent risk in wasting a stone to ensure you get it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot4Perdita Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 11 hours ago, -Loki- said: The risk is part of the point. Triggers are powerful, so there's an inherent risk in wasting a stone to ensure you get it. Yes, but by changing it like I suggested, it still would not be too powerful, because soulstones are still a very limited resource, and will still go quick regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 30 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said: Yes, but by changing it like I suggested, it still would not be too powerful, because soulstones are still a very limited resource, and will still go quick regardless. You usually burn a Stone for extremely powerful Actions that need a suit like Summoning and such or for very powerful Triggers like Thinking Luck or Loudest Squeel or whatever. I feel that all of those effects are already powerful enough so I'm not sure what your suggestion would be trying to accomplish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot4Perdita Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said: You usually burn a Stone for extremely powerful Actions that need a suit like Summoning and such or for very powerful Triggers like Thinking Luck or Loudest Squeel or whatever. I feel that all of those effects are already powerful enough so I'm not sure what your suggestion would be trying to accomplish? Basically, I'm suggesting that they should allow soulstone use to gain a suit after the card is flipped from the deck. So if you need a ram, and you flip a 13 ram, you won't need to use a soulstone, but if you flip a 13 mask, you would need to use one, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Git Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 The fluff justification is that the caster is crushing the soulstone to ensure the spell/action goes off, not get half-way through and then say "oh crap, not enough juice!" and crush one. That said, I'd be all for using the soulstone after flipping as it takes an unnecessary element of luck out of the game. It gives more power to the player, not lady luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said: Basically, I'm suggesting that they should allow soulstone use to gain a suit after the card is flipped from the deck. So if you need a ram, and you flip a 13 ram, you won't need to use a soulstone, but if you flip a 13 mask, you would need to use one, etc. I very much dislike this change. SS are a risk/reward thing and should stay the way they are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 24 minutes ago, trikk said: I very much dislike this change. SS are a risk/reward thing and should stay the way they are. I have to agree. The thing with removing the risk/reward element with adding suits to duels, is where do you stop? If there's no risk in burning a stone for a suit, why should there be any risk in re-flipping initative, adding positive flips, drawing extra cards or preventing damage? Should Soulstones simply guarantee that something works, with no risk of wasting that stone if the result isn't in your favour? I realise I'm making a ridiculous arguement here, but my point is more that risk/reward is a consistent part of how soulstones work in Malifaux. So at least to me, it doesn't make alot of sense to remove the risk from just one aspect of how Soulstones are used. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Hot4Perdita said: Basically, I'm suggesting that they should allow soulstone use to gain a suit after the card is flipped from the deck. So if you need a ram, and you flip a 13 ram, you won't need to use a soulstone, but if you flip a 13 mask, you would need to use one, etc. I understand your suggestion, I don't understand why you're making it. To re-iterate my argument, to me it seems like it would only strengthen the most powerful actions in the game (like Summons and Triggers with massive effects) - why would you want that? Don't you think that, e.g., Resser Summoning (which almost always requires Crows and is done by SS users) is powerful enough as it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted July 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 I cant think of a better way to insure guild remains the weakest faction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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