Malifaux Raptors: existential crisis

[FinalForm]

I realy need help with this one.
Raptors are extremely mobile models with decent stats.
I see all the hype about how awesome they are but why take them if not for short change? Of course they can have some nice sinergy in Marcus but outside of it they cannot kill even descent scheme runner and everything they have is mobility.

Even more for only one more ss you can get a freakin Steam arachnid which is very mobile and far better protected, or effigy which is pretty mobile can support and still far better protected, or even a wind gamin which is about equaly protected and have much much larger impact ingame. 
Why take Raptors outside of Marcus crew?

[Adran]

Raptors have a few uses. 

The most common is probably teamed up with practise production. Since thta lets you put a scheme marker near a friendly model, havign a wk 8 model can get you just about anywhere. As can their take to the sky action (which also keeps them safe)

Secondly, although similarly, Grab and drop with Kaeris. Set them on fire near her, and then they get to move 16" and drop a scheme marker at the end of it. 

Thirdly, the beast trigger for Marcus. 

and fourthly, screwing up enemy plans. Be it rapidly engaging a sniper, or other model that you opponent has plans for, or just freely screwing over the Interference maths. If they have taken to the sky they can easily appear somewhere to stop 2 or 3 scoring models just before the turn is scored, and they can do this potentially every turn. 

[FinalForm]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

Since thta lets you put a scheme marker near a friendly model

I don't get it. Can you explain.

[Adran]

There is a Showgirl Upgrade, "Practised production" that allows you to put a scheme marker near a friendly model. So that will want you to have friendly models in good places to put the marker down. The raptor is very good at getting to those good spots. 

[Nikodemus]

Df6, 4 wounds. (2)AP to place them anywhere on the table. I use them to deny VP by proximity (Claim Jump, Interference) or to tie up enemy models that would really love to spend their AP for something useful (ie. not disengaging from ml5 or trying to oneshot df6 wd4 model).

Haven't used them to turn anyone into a beast yet, haven't bothered with PP cheese yet. Not a critical purchase I don't think, but worth it for 3ss.

[Sybarite]

Yeah they are crazy good at putting markers down with production. Theyre also ace in interference. Popping down, interfering models in the right quarters before scoring.

[dancater]

Fast

Good WD stat for pts cost

High Df

Larger base to take up space and get into enemy engagement to disrupt them

Then they have scheme marker synergy with several faction selections (Practiced Production upgrade and Kaeris)

Synergy with Marcus in Beast trickery

In all honesty in this forum most people will say they are excellent.  Go to the other faction forums and ask the same question and it will explode with rage, angst, demands they get Cuddled and possibly tears.  In Arcanist's Raptors are probably in the top 3 most despised and considered OP models we have, they are amazingly versatile and very economical cost wise.  I think if they simply fly around and engage enemy scheme runners while going defensive so they are a nightmare to kill that alone is value in 80+% of games.  With everything else they can do I simply always  pull the card out during list selection, they may not get into list but they are considered every time.

[spooky_squirrel]

On top of the above, Raptors have some deck manipulation that can be extremely helpful, especially when used in conjunction with other models that we have. They are a relatively cheap way to peek at your own deck to cycle cards out or stack the deck, and if you need the beast trigger outside of Marcus crews (Blade and Claw in a Ramos crew, for instance), you can turn some of your stuff into beasts with just a scratch. I've also used them in Ironsides to scratch up models like Shastar Vidiya Guards and Amina Naidu to get the HPM bonus started in Turn 1.
With the Shastar Vidiya Guards you also have the potential to not just stack the deck on the Rake The Eyes trigger on the Raptor, but also to draw the card you stacked to the top if you cheat your defense. I wouldn't necessarily try for this, as it requires cheating at least one (probably two, just to get the trigger) in order to draw the best of the top three cards of your deck after damaging.

[dancater]

So basically for 3 soul stones you get a durable model (for its cost) which is extremely fast.  Add to that the manifold synergies they can produce with something to add to really every Arcanist master depending on exact list composition, your needs and imagination.

There primary weakness is insignificant meaning they are not directly able to place scheme markers or otherwise interact but even this is something which can be manipulated depending on crew selection.

Also they are not a 'killy' model but for 3SS you'd expect they would not be, especially given there higher than expected durability, but again this is not as bad as it sounds as they are fast enough to pace many if not most other scheme runners and other irritant models and in many cases the Raptor does not need to kill them to disrupt them, simply engaging a model usually curtails its actions significantly until they deal with the Raptor which as noted is not usually as simple or AP economical as your opponent will like.  One trap in Malifaux is thinking what can this model kill, Malifaux is not a killing game - then the thought is Malifaux is about scoring so how does this model score.  In both these cases the Raptor is not primarily designed for this role.  But another aspect is how can I stop my opponent from scoring or otherwise disrupt them, and in this the Raptor simply excels, it is IMO the best points for economy disruption model in the entire game given its speed and flexibility.  Then you add that it can score points in the right schemes and/or crews and while it does not do a massive amount of damage it can do some (and maybe that 1 dam kills the vital model) and it can also enhance the potential of other models in crews to do more damage.

This is a model with massive upside and minimal downside, at 3SS I'd be relatively happy if they burned a couple of AP's from an opponents crew just to see them dead and given their reputation, flexibility and game impact most opponents will allocate significant energy trying to kill or neutralize them.

[spooky_squirrel]

and that ^ is why when you talk to non-Arcanist groups about the Raptor all you hear is salt and rage. In the hands of someone who has enough experience to play a disruptive game and make use of the synergies of the crew, it does a lot. Add to it a single showgirl who can take at least one upgrade (Angelica, for instance) and the upgrade Practiced Production and it goes from being a tricky tool to use to your opponent being able to look at your crew and think: Leave Your Mark is in the pool, they have Angelica with PP and a Raptor. I can't hit buried things with this crew and nothing I have that's fast enough can afford to try and disrupt LYM if that bird pops up behind all this blocking severe/impassible terrain. They're up 3 VP from crew selection alone. Now what? Can I kill Angelica between turns 2-3 when she cannot be charged and will likely be in hard cover and defensive?

Of course, if you have the spare stones and want to use Cassandra or Carlos as the PP carrier instead, that's a different animal with a similar song. Cassandra can put attacks on the negative and is nimble, and Carlos is both stupendously fast and surprisingly good at tanking. They can afford to play more forward than Angelica, and they ask different questions of you and your opponent.

 

We have other models that work well as Practiced Production nodes, like the Soulstone Miner. It, however, is 6 stones, armored, and significant. It presents a very different kind of problem, but loses the mobility advantage after it unburies, or if the deployment is Close Deployment. It also doesn't do anything on the level that @dancater describes above in terms of disruption. You could possibly use things like Wind Gamin as well, as they're flying and walk 5 with a leap ability (and significant), but again, not to the level of mobility and disruption that you get for cheaper out of the Raptor. Though Wind Gamin get some salt as well because they're another model that does a whole lot more for its cost in the hands of an experienced player.

 

Outside of Practiced Production and Leave Your Mark (or any other scheme that involves putting schemes in your opponent's deployment zone), Raptors also work incredibly well as Hunting Party defense. Typically when used for this, they're hired into a crew that's almost entirely enforcers and henchmen. As an example:

Quote

Ironsides (with 4 stones in upgrades)
Oxfordian Trio (full kit, 15 stones)
Emissary (with Toni's conflux, 10 stones)
Johan (7 stones)
Joss (Warding Runes, 11 stones)
Malifaux Raptor (3 stones)
50 stones spent, 5 stones cache

With Hunting Party in the pool, everything in this crew except Ironsides and the Raptor can score on the scheme. Your opponent can only score if they kill the Raptor (or do some newer, more interesting tricks like using Amina Naidu to give people the Peon station before having them killed), so for you to defend against the scheme and deny them those points, you just have the Raptor take to the skies and pop up on a corner so far away from everything in the opposing crew that it's not worth trying to go after. If you put a crew like this together, an experienced opponent is probably not taking Hunting Party unless they can attack buried things (another thing that's becoming a little more common) or have reliable ways of changing your models' station.

 

Something else to note is that they are on a 40mm base and can place anywhere on the table. Need a 30mm Web Marker covered? Need to stop someone from using a Corpse or Scrap Marker? Does one of your opponent's scary abilities require line of sight to a Scheme Marker? No problem. Camp on top of that marker and force your opponent to spend precious AP going after a 3 stone disruption piece. Your bird is doing what it was hired to do (disruption), and whatever is killing it is not (barring Hunting Party).

[Terry Bailey Sr]

I don't understand how you are using Practiced Production with Raptor? Practiced Production says you can place the scheme marker near a non peon non insignificant model. Raptor is both a peon and insignificant. How are you placing scheme marker with Raptor?

 

[retnab]

Old thread is old. Practiced Production got errata'd to not work with Peons but before the errata people would just take Raptors for effortless Scheme Marker placement.

[Ludvig]

Yeah, this post is from before the summer errata. That's why you can't trust old info, the game is in constant flux.

Poor arcanists btw, now their actual scheme runners need to get their hands dirty.

[Terry Bailey Sr]

Poor me. I just bought them. 

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Terry Bailey Sr said:

Poor me. I just bought them. 

They still have their uses. They are excellent disruption pieces that you can land to deny important Charges or mess up with ranged models or certain types of Scheme runners and such. They are far from bad!

[Freman]

In a McMourning crew they're good for giving the Beast characteristic to models who don't have it (like McMourning) so they benefit from his healing aura.

Other than that they're a minion (albeit insignificant) that can contest or score on schemes and strats that just require a warm body, and as others have said, just be a nuisance in general.

[JimO]

22 minutes ago, Freman said:

In a McMourning crew they're good for giving the Beast characteristic to models who don't have it (like McMourning) so they benefit from his healing aura.

Other than that they're a minion (albeit insignificant) that can contest or score on schemes and strats that just require a warm body, and as others have said, just be a nuisance in general.

Malifaux Raptors are peons, not minions.  

[Freman]

My bad. In that case forget the bit about warm bodies. Just annoy people by covering markers and engaging models who want to be free.

[KingCrow]

Raptors are still decent models that I use to disrupt enemy plans.  Think you're going up against Collodi with a Trapper or a Shen Long with some Snipers? Or going up against a crew with three Oxfordian Mages?  The bird is perfect to have them dive and place in to base contact with them.  A Ml 5 with poor damage is fine vs a similar Df 5 is fine because you're more aiming for the Mask trigger that allows you to look at the top three cards of their deck or to just prevent them from sniping.  The Df 6 on the bird is great vs similarly weak hitting models (except for that one Ox mage that uses his Ca in melee - don't engage that one).  An easy three-point model that can reach anywhere on the board to mess with the enemy can be a huge swing in VP.  They're good models but I never bring more than one.

As a side thought, they could be good when paired with the new shooter that gets bonuses with beasts...maybe.