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Von Schill Question


spect_spidey

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Sure a good player can do a good job with Von Schill, but it's quite obious that there're Masters with higher caché that can do better the same thing that VS. He's not SO good to have cache 1.

 

Probably, a good player can win me using old Lucius even if I play with Perdita and he's playing with 45ss and I'm with 50ss, but that doesn't mean that Lucius was OP.

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I started with VS as my first master since he was straight forward to play. After venturing into other masters of the outcasts, I do find him a bit lacking at least in GG2016/GG2017. I frequently want to take models that aren't freikorps and what synergy he has vanishes. At that point he's feels like strongarm suit with an extra ap and a nice 0. I'm hoping the new engineer model will renew my interest in playing him. I will say with the emissary and the right situation he can be alot of fun though and shut down a chunk of the board amazingly well. I just hate having to take the emissary every match to make him more viable. 

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On 17.6.2017 at 0:01 PM, PositronMike said:

For me Parker has completely replaced Von Schill. He is better at commanding his troops to do things with his push action and the two limited upgrades that let him tell models to take an interact or attack action. Just comparing those two zeros to finish the cur shows how much more Parker brings to the crew than Von Schill. The other big problem with Von Schill for me is that his card is split wanting him to do two different things. Part of it wants him and the crew to bunch up and hold ground but the rest means that he is actually better hunting down models by himself.

I agree in that Parker (as expected) fits better with current scheme/strats than VS but I think it has gone unmentioned or undervalued just how good it is to be friekorps.  Armor+1 and blast/pulse immunity with potential VS HTK (if close enough) makes even the lowly freikorpsman a bear to take down.  I played a Parker vs. VS game and although Parker's crew was vastly more maneuverable, the shots fired did little against the korps and in return the bandits got peppered or mustachioed in the face. 

Playing with VS, I agree it would be nice to have a higher cache, but I think that alone (2ss or 3ss ) would boost their performance significantly!

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Asside from his cashe being raised which I agree with. I think he could do with a couple of upgrades as his current selection asside from the shirt comes off is very poor.

I'd like to see one that shows he is a respected mercenary with connections and command experiance such as

On the books

2ss

Pressed into service: All models with the mercenary characteristic gain the Friekorps characteristic 

Connected: May hire out of faction mercenaries without paying an additional 1ss

 

Or somthing showing he is a tough old guy you don't want to rile up like

 Mess with the Bull....

2ss

Enrage: when this model is reduced to 6 or fewer Wd this model gains +2:ram to Ml and damage flips caused by its  Ml actions gain  :+fate

Hard to kill:

 

Or somthing that shows he is a wiley veteran who knows how to use the battle field to his advantage like

 

Walked right in to it  

1ss

Don't flip for set up. This model's crew always chooses their deployment zonre and their opponents crew always sets up their models first.

Ignore this ability if both crews have it.

 

Also spoils of war should be changed to Friendly Friekorps minions or enforcers

 

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Following on from my post above the more I think of it replacing his awful upgrade selection with more characterful and useful abilities could really turn VS arround without messing with his card too much.

There is a lot of fixing that can be done to Von Shill with upgrades as his existing ones almost never get taken

Other options include a nod to his enhanced legs and his Hulk Hoganyness

Put the boot in

1ss

Von Svhill gains the following attack action 

Augmented Kick: Ml 6 1/2/4 push target 6" away from this model

:ram Say Your Prayers: After pushing target push this model into base contact with it

:tome Take Your Vitamins: Target gains the slow condition

 

Or somthing that shows he is a tough old man and also gives him one of his 1.5 ablities back

Slow to Die

1ss

Dying Breath: when this model is killed it may make a 1AP action before removing it from play.

(0) Shrug off: This model may discard 1 card to remove one Condition from this model

 

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You might be right that upgrades are the way to go. They would certainly be easier to add than supplying entirely new card(s) for the crew. Even so, he's not glaringly awful so it's probably not correct to inundate him with tonnes of new options that would drastically improve him. 2 new upgrades in total seems reasonable. I like the concept of On the books, though Burt benefiting from VS's aura... that's a mess. 

In particular, Augmented Kick would add something to VS's arsenal that is sorely lacking; generating ap efficiency.

Two 6" pushes for 1AP and a low :ram? That's usually going to be worth the damage flip on friendlies to promote their mobility (especially considering Friekorps all have Armour so it's more like a 1/1/3 flip). 

Of course, a 6" push is amazing against enemies too. If you were prepared to spend high cards and/or stones for :ram's he could do a pretty good impression of Lightning Dance and kidnap enemy models. VS's Augmented Charge means he should usually be able to position appropriately; the charge itself will generate 12" of forced movement on that model if you connect both times.

That :tome trigger is also nasty (reminds me of Nelly a bit, where she pushes and slows a model for 1 AP). Some damage, Slow and a 6" shove... Overall an exceptional trigger for Extraction. 

If you were to theorycraft only 1 or 2 upgrades what would you have them be @Voodoo Specter?

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@hydranixx I completely agree I wouldn't expect him to get that many upgrades they were just suggestions for one's that I think would suit him thematically and give him a niche to fill and therefore a reason to take him.

If I had to pick 2 I'd go Augmented Kick as pushes are rare in Outcasts and it gives him some great utility in Extraction, Guard the stash and Interference. My second would be Walked right into it as it is somthing unique in the game.

That said I also think Mess with the bull... would allow him to play as a propper mixed arms master supporting and ranged attacking in the first couple of turns and swiching to a serious combat beater in later turns. But I wouldn't have both Augmented Kick and Mess with the Bull as I think individually they would be good upgrades for him, together they would get out of hand.

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My issue with 'walked right into it' is that flipping for deployment is very integral aspect of the game. Forcing your opponent to deploy first, in the deployment side they want the least, eliminates a very important part of the pre game set up (and make it a very npe for your opponent on some boards, especially with Trappers since FtS means you will always get to deploy second and secure good firing positions).

How about simply automatically winning the deployment flip? You still get some control of deployment edges if the board is really awkward, but you don't get to ALSO deploy after your opponent has. Perhaps you could glue it on another upgrade and price it at 2ss (similar to Tara's :+fate to initiative upgrade).

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I have no idea how balanced it is but I really like that adding some kind of influence on the rules of deployment is making me think. It might, if it became popular, take some heat off of the Viktorias and their chances of facing an alpha strike which wants to deploy second.

Changing deployment to one you name would be a little too much though. The threat range change between close and corner is too great. At best it could force a reflip.

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22 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Changing deployment to one you name would be a little too much though. The threat range change between close and corner is too great. At best it could force a reflip.

Most events run specific deployment+strategy pairings each round. I can't ever recall seeing Squatters on Standard Deployment in organised play, for examplem since the markers just end up too close to each other. Surely a reflip does nothing for tournaments since it's automated?

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36 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

Most events run specific deployment+strategy pairings each round. I can't ever recall seeing Squatters on Standard Deployment in organised play, for example since the markers just end up too close to each other. Surely a reflip does nothing for tournaments since it's automated?

Tournaments using the Gaining Grounds rotation don't ever flip, so there's no flip to re-flip, was my reasoning. With deployment fixed the Von Schill player would certainly use the certainty to win the deployment flip instead of using the reflip of deployment type. It would have to be "choose an effect from the following" wording or however it is for Marcus and his tomes.

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14 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Tournaments using the Gaining Grounds rotation don't ever flip, so there's no flip to re-flip, was my reasoning. With deployment fixed the Von Schill player would certainly use the certainty to win the deployment flip instead of using the reflip of deployment type. It would have to be "choose an effect from the following" wording or however it is for Marcus and his tomes.

Seems curious. Have you come up with all the effects you might want included?

I was thinking of combining a few of the ideas generated, and brainstormed with this 2ss upgrade:

Grizzled Veteran (2)

Grizzled Veteran:
This model's crew may choose to automatically win the Deployment Flip. 

Tactical Ruse:
Before drawing control hands for the first turn of the game, place 1 friendly model that is in play anywhere in your deployment zone. If the model that was placed has the Friekorps characteristic, it may then immediately take a Walk action.

Make It Rain:
Once per game, this model may take the Stand and Shoot Tactical Action as a (2) Action instead of a (3) Action. If it does, draw a card, then discard this upgrade. 

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We were talking about VS needing some fix. They´re gonna give two upgrades to each Master. Not every Mastet needs fixing, so I supose the balance between Master are gonna keep being the same, unless they really give an autotake upgrade for VS.

 

Maybe, who knows.

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16 minutes ago, Freman said:

(2) First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire. All Freikorps models within 6" may fire any :ranged attack at a designated target model. This may only be done once per turn.

This ain't 40k, GW will probably file a lawsuit if you copy their named abilities/actions. 

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That's a law suit they would lose since that would be a standard military command for the period the real life Von Schill commanded troops in.

Plus I doubt they have a leg to stand on when it comes to historical or modern military terms or commands. 

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17 hours ago, Voodoo Specter said:

The thing that needed fixing about him wasn't that he was awful he just needed a niche. There wasn't a combination of strats and schemes where you weren't better off picking another master. As long as those upgrades allow him to do something unique in the faction I'll be happy.

I think it's that he doesn't specialise in anything - and he misses too many things to even be considered a generalist; others even do 'generalist' better than he does. 

He doesn't do AP control, hand control, opponent manipulation, pushes + other movement tricks, scheme marker manipulation, nothing like that - and without doing even just movement and/or scheme marker manipulation I struggle to consider him generalist. 

And he and his crew hits too weakly to be considered killy.  Even getting extra attacks for friekorps would start to push him towards 'killy generalist' 

 

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1 hour ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

I think it's that he doesn't specialise in anything - and he misses too many things to even be considered a generalist; others even do 'generalist' better than he does. 

He doesn't do AP control, hand control, opponent manipulation, pushes + other movement tricks, scheme marker manipulation, nothing like that - and without doing even just movement and/or scheme marker manipulation I struggle to consider him generalist. 

And he and his crew hits too weakly to be considered killy.  Even getting extra attacks for friekorps would start to push him towards 'killy generalist' 

 

All he does REALLY is be pretty resilient, and bring a pretty resilient crew. And then some opportunistic killing. Which in the current scheme pool that has very little to do with killing, that resilience isn't really doing a lot! Add to that the fact that staying in a pretty fixed location and not dying doesn't do much outside of scoring Extraction, and even less in terms of denying opposing schemes, and it's clear that the current iteration of Malifaux really is No Country For Old Men. I really hope the new upgrade(s) manage to address that without simply being auto-take patch upgrades! I won't stop taking Von Schill, so it would be nice to know that when I do it's not a more or less automatic game loss!

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