Von Schill Question

[spect_spidey]

I am curious if anyone thinks Von Schill will get an errata that will allow him to hire at cost any miniature with the Freikorps keyword. I know there is only currently Anna Lovelace outside of the Outcasts faction with the Freikorps word, but still saving one SS would be nice when you want to build a fluffy all Freikorps list. I am new to the game so I am not sure how often changes like this occur with Malifaux. Thoughts?

[CapnBloodbeard]

It would make sense, but there would seem to be more important things to do to fix him first  

 

[Freman]

Boosting his cache to 4 might help. Given what he brings to the table (or doesn't), 1 is a mite miserly.

[spect_spidey]

6 hours ago, Freman said:

Boosting his cache to 4 might help. Given what he brings to the table (or doesn't), 1 is a mite miserly.

I would agree. Even though I am new to the game, I thought it was odd that he had a cache of 1 when compared to some of the other masters out there.

[Adran]

15 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

I am curious if anyone thinks Von Schill will get an errata that will allow him to hire at cost any miniature with the Freikorps keyword. I know there is only currently Anna Lovelace outside of the Outcasts faction with the Freikorps word, but still saving one SS would be nice when you want to build a fluffy all Freikorps list. I am new to the game so I am not sure how often changes like this occur with Malifaux. Thoughts?

Whilst this isn't impossible, they could have done something about this when they created Anna, and didn't. I certainly wouldn't hold my breath waiitng for it. They have previously created models that are cheaper as mercs for certain people, so its not an unknown mechanic. 

 

I think Vonschills Cache being 1 is more historic than anything else, in the last edition all the outcasts had cache 1 to signify that didn't have easy access to soulstones, and the old Outcast leaders still have this. (vonschill, Viks, levi, Hamelin)

[Seadhna]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

I think Vonschills Cache being 1 is more historic than anything else, in the last edition all the outcasts had cache 1 to signify that didn't have easy access to soulstones, and the old Outcast leaders still have this. (vonschill, Viks, levi, Hamelin)

well it's a good thing Levi and Hamelin have Cache 1, otherwise it would be way uglier.

 

On the topic of the errata: if it happens, it will be in January. August errata is reserved for things that break the game (*cough* Hamelin *cough*).

[Zebo]

VS hasn't changed so far. And although I really would love it, I have no hopes of this happening. 

 

There's too many people saying that his stats are good for his cache 1. They aren't gonna change him. 

[DXXXVIII]

A the good stats explain all the VS i see winnning tournaments in my local meta... zero... ;P

[Ludvig]

27 minutes ago, DXXXVIII said:

A the good stats explain all the VS i see winnning tournaments in my local meta... zero... ;P

To be fair there are what, 40+ masters? Him not winning doesn't mean that much, especially since people seem to find him boring and simply don't play him at all. That makes it really hard to measure how good he would have done.

Not saying he isn't bad, just a tricky way to measure his strength.

[Vorschlag]

I personally think Von Schill does what he should as he's a jack of all trades who provides good support to his crew, has the capacity to do some nice damage and has a pseudo obey.

 

However with how often people have a cry about him and with the standard freikorpman soon to be completely outdated by the engineer (final nail in their coffin?) I've been thinking about this a bit.

What I feel might fix both would be something like this.

 

Upgrade -call for back up-rare 2

Friekorp enforcers only.

Only available when this crew is led by Von Schill

-when this model is killed summon one freikorpman within 6" of your deployment zone.

 

It may need a card discard or damage attribute added I'm unsure.

[Zebo]

At this point, that upgrade should be too expensive (you are summoning a 5ss model by the face) or too OP

 

And this wouldn’t fix the Freikorpsmann problem.

For them, I see 2 options to get more usefull.

 

1 - increase their lethality by improving the damage track of their Hunting Knife to 1/3/5 and their Clockwork Pistol to 2/3/4. This would mean them less dependent of make focus and spent a high card of your hand plus discarding a  to make a big shot, and better suited to make two shots of min damage 3 (or 4). Also could make them a little bit more killy when using Reposition.

 

2 - (my favourite) make them better scheme runner by increasing their mobility with agile or some kind of push or movement (please, no more discarding things with Freikorps). A (0) action that allows them to push themselves 3’ or 4’ unless they are engaged could force us to choose between the extra suit or the extra movement.

 

Also, the Specialist need some tweaks. I feel that increasing both def and wk should be fine, but I think that giving Move or Burn some kind of push (for example, taking 2 damage to discard slow/paralized and push 4”/their walk in any direction) could improve greatly the whole Freikorps themed crew.

VS needs also it’s own fix.

[hydranixx]

5 hours ago, Zebo said:

1 - increase their lethality by improving the damage track of their Hunting Knife to 1/3/5 and their Clockwork Pistol to 2/3/4. This would mean them less dependent of make focus and spent a high card of your hand plus discarding a  to make a big shot, and better suited to make two shots of min damage 3 (or 4). Also could make them a little bit more killy when using Reposition.

A 5ss model with a min 3 ranged attack, that becomes min 4 on a flipped or cheated ... It sounds like you're kind of making them like a mini Rusty Alyce, except that they're only half her ss cost. They almost have identical statlines if VS is leading. 

At least Gremlins have the courtesy of being squishy, or hurting themselves, when they convert minimum 2 damage into minimum 4 damage with their minions. Friekorps, especially with VS at the helm, are tough as nails.

I like your second option too. A (0) push is versatile, and would transform a humble Friekorpsman into a relatively durable scheme runner, instead of trying to make him into yet another ranged damage dealer that competes with Bandidos, Dead Outlaws and pretty much all the other Friekorps models. Pushes are desperately needed in the Friekorps subtheme, and would go a long way towards mitigating their lack of AP generation. 

6 hours ago, Zebo said:

VS needs also it’s own fix.

I'm interested to hear what you propose.

[Zebo]

Well, in the fluff line of him being a hard guy and really dangerous both in range and melée, I would suggest Hard to Wound or Impossible to Wound, plus increasing both MI and SH to 7. That IMHO would take VS nearer to where a Caché 1 Master should be. His damage spread keep being reliable, but not as high as the specialists. He could be the toughest Master, but everywhere says he's really tough,and there're some masters as tough as him (or tougher) that have no reason to be. 

 

Also, I would decrease the AP cost of Stand and Shoot to 2, as it is enough difficult to be in range and LOS of 3 models at the same time that you are in a situation in wich you prefer to make damage to different models instead of focus in one and killing it. 

 

Finally, fluff-wise, I would love to see him with the Mercenary Trait, but it really only would mean he benefits of I Pay Better (that doesn't  make  me sad) 

[CapnBloodbeard]

On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 7:39 AM, Zebo said:

At this point, that upgrade should be too expensive (you are summoning a 5ss model by the face) or too OP

 

 

Black text on a black background is completely illegible on some monitors.

 

anyway, My problem with vS? I don't think he does what he's supposed to do.

He's supposed to be a super tough model but to be honest, I just don't see that.  There's the upgrade to give him H2K which helps.  He's fairly durable, but not overly difficult to take down.  Especially when there are more and more models with Ml7 and/or min dmg 3.

 

He's not a hard hitter - and he doesn't have to be, that's fine, but I feel he's actually on the weaker side.  Put him up against Misaki, for instance, who seems to be both tougher and harder.

 

And he has no pushes, no movement tricks, and more importantly - no scheme marker manipulation.  So he isn't that good at killing anything (can't take the approach of 'dead models don't drop scheme markers), and with no manipulation it means that rather than being sort of good at all strats and schemes, as an all rounder should be, he's actually quite terrible at the vast majority of them.  And he doesn't really enable his crew to do much with them either - a 'H2k but not H2k' bubble is kinda nice but not hugely exciting, especially given how mediocre the freikorpsmenn are.

 

So personally, I think he fails at being a generalist.    

 

I wonder if even something like a (0)AP obey for friekorps models might be the way to go, or something enabling some scheme marker manipulation.  Or allowing friekorps models within X" to charge while engaged would really boost the denial game.

 

It just seems that he doesn't really do enough to make life difficult for the other crew or to be able to complete strats/schemes in a number of ways. 

 

Even after that, more SS still wouldn't go astray, especially when you look at the cache of other leaders which are more effective in every possible way. 

 

[Zebo]

Sorry for the black. I wrote the post in a word document, and when I copied it here, it was black and I couldn't change it (I don 't know how) 

[Nikodemus]

When you're making post there's a row of icons in the upper corner of the text window (B, I, U ...). You need to click an 'A' icon on the right edge of the row to change text colour.

[spect_spidey]

I am still new to the game. I think his willpower bubble can be useful. His zero Finish the Cur can come in handy after he has damaged some lower wound enemies. His Augmented Leap means he is hard to pin down with his charge of 8, but his has a small range. He can help with condition removal by spending 3 SS to get his totem, but that requires you to keep your models within 4 of the trunk. I did pretty well with him in a recent tournament, but I found that he doesn't seem to quite know what he wants to do. Some of his abilities make him want to stay close to his crew if they are Freikorps, but others make him want to leap out ahead of them. I found that in my three games with him Lazarus was the one who was wrecking people. Von Schill just softened a few up.

[apes-ma]

@CapnBloodbeard has it spot on I think. With GG2017 the game is more about ap efficiency than ever, and the friekorps crew is perhaps the let so efficient crew in the game - it's things like obeys, marker manipulation and pushes that generate ap efficiency, and they have none of it.

[Cedar]

Von Schill is tank - at least this is his design, but he has only 1" of engage so it is very unlikely that he will tie multiple enemies in combat. He lacks something like Challenge or even Raging Challenge granted by Ironsides' Emissary. He can use Finish the cur to kill low WD enemies, but if something has Hard to kill and 2 WD the attack won't do much. I think, that increasing his threat range to at least 2", giving him some nice (0) ability (like challenge/raging challenge) and making attack from finih the cur to ignore hard to kill would help a lot.

[Jesy Blue]

On 6/12/2017 at 11:17 AM, Seadhna said:

On the topic of the errata: if it happens, it will be in January. August errata is reserved for things that break the game (*cough* Hamelin *cough*).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Hamelin, just leave hm be.

i think all the Outcast masters are cashe 1 because they are outlaws robbing people for their money, are living adjacent being beyond the need of money, or working for money.  "Money First"

Everyone else has influence or power or flat out wealth behind them.... our folks, not so much.

I honestly think we'll get more out of faction freikorps after we get some out of faction Sisters..... 15 minutes after never.

[Freman]

Parker has Cache 4. Maybe he's the way of the future. A low cache on Viktoria (free Henchman) Leveticus (free Totems) and Hamelin (a pretty decent Master) is understandable, and Tara (4) Jack Daw (2) and Misaki (2) seem about right, especially if you're planning to dump stones to get Misaki's assassinate trigger, but Von Schill has too few. He's not on a par with even post-cuddle Leveticus, and Jack is clearly better. I think a cache of 4 should be looked at for him, and giving him an Obey like action, maybe one that only requires a 6, but also only affects Freikorps, call it "Martial Law" or something.

I haven't played with her yet, but Anna Lovelace looks like she might be useful in a Freikorps crew, including adding a bit of summoning (Seishan probably, Mindless Zombies are pretty useless when you can't use corpse markers yourself, and Seishin have the ability to jump to your crew master and sacrifice themselves for a healing flip) and rush of magic.

[apes-ma]

1 hour ago, Freman said:

Parker has Cache 4. Maybe he's the way of the future. A low cache on Viktoria (free Henchman) Leveticus (free Totems) and Hamelin (a pretty decent Master) is understandable, and Tara (4) Jack Daw (2) and Misaki (2) seem about right, especially if you're planning to dump stones to get Misaki's assassinate trigger, but Von Schill has too few. He's not on a par with even post-cuddle Leveticus, and Jack is clearly better. I think a cache of 4 should be looked at for him, and giving him an Obey like action, maybe one that only requires a 6, but also only affects Freikorps, call it "Martial Law" or something.

I haven't played with her yet, but Anna Lovelace looks like she might be useful in a Freikorps crew, including adding a bit of summoning (Seishan probably, Mindless Zombies are pretty useless when you can't use corpse markers yourself, and Seishin have the ability to jump to your crew master and sacrifice themselves for a healing flip) and rush of magic.

I've often subbed in Anna for Strongarm/Lazarus when playing into extraction or guard the stash with less killy schemes - she can really mess with the board centre, and the big bubble that shuts down pushes tends to result in your opponent having to about as ap inefficient as you! I've thought about swapping out Hannah for Anna and keeping the suit/Lazarus, but I haven't tried it yet. It feels wrong not to take Hannah to hold I Pay Better (which is, really, the only source of free AP for the crew...)

[PositronMike]

1 hour ago, Freman said:

Parker has Cache 4. Maybe he's the way of the future. A low cache on Viktoria (free Henchman) Leveticus (free Totems) and Hamelin (a pretty decent Master) is understandable, and Tara (4) Jack Daw (2) and Misaki (2) seem about right, especially if you're planning to dump stones to get Misaki's assassinate trigger, but Von Schill has too few. He's not on a par with even post-cuddle Leveticus, and Jack is clearly better. I think a cache of 4 should be looked at for him, and giving him an Obey like action, maybe one that only requires a 6, but also only affects Freikorps, call it "Martial Law" or something.

I haven't played with her yet, but Anna Lovelace looks like she might be useful in a Freikorps crew, including adding a bit of summoning (Seishan probably, Mindless Zombies are pretty useless when you can't use corpse markers yourself, and Seishin have the ability to jump to your crew master and sacrifice themselves for a healing flip) and rush of magic.

For me Parker has completely replaced Von Schill. He is better at commanding his troops to do things with his push action and the two limited upgrades that let him tell models to take an interact or attack action. Just comparing those two zeros to finish the cur shows how much more Parker brings to the crew than Von Schill. The other big problem with Von Schill for me is that his card is split wanting him to do two different things. Part of it wants him and the crew to bunch up and hold ground but the rest means that he is actually better hunting down models by himself.

[Freman]

44 minutes ago, apes-ma said:

I've often subbed in Anna for Strongarm/Lazarus when playing into extraction or guard the stash with less killy schemes - she can really mess with the board centre, and the big bubble that shuts down pushes tends to result in your opponent having to about as ap inefficient as you! I've thought about swapping out Hannah for Anna and keeping the suit/Lazarus, but I haven't tried it yet. It feels wrong not to take Hannah to hold I Pay Better (which is, really, the only source of free AP for the crew...)

Anna is a Henchwoman, so she can hold I Pay Better too.

[Vorschlag]

2 hours ago, Freman said:

Stuff...

My concern with this attitude is that I've both seen and experienced a skilled player running von schil in our meta and national ranked competitions.

The extra cache on parker didn't help him against Von schill in your game vs Nat and he's possibly on par with Casey when running Von Schil.

Which again raises the argument is it players skill level in mastering a generalist support master or the master themselves.

I know my rankings and stats have suffered since banning the masters I'm comfortable/familiar with. 

So are players truly incapable of running Von Schill effectively or does he simply not inspire the same commitment through theory faux and stat running.

I would go as far as to say Von Schill is the bass guitar of Malifaux easy to learn  but hard to master, hence why I think an upgrade that makes his base box more usable is all he needs.