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hydranixx

Gravedigger 17/05

11 posts in this topic

I was super stoked to read the changes here. Cheers Aaron, I think this adds plenty for Gravedigger and will stimulate further playtesting!

The automatic :crow for Shovel makes him decidedly nasty in combat if you're prepared to pay up in Corpses. I appreciate the trigger doesn't ask you to discard the corpses until you know that you've hit. Minimum 3/4/5 or 4/5/6 damage tracks are kind of amazing, but losing your hard earned Corpse stacks could be a very big price to pay, so I think it leads to some interesting decision making. It's also only a Ml5 attack on a 7ss model that neuters it's own Ch range by having Corpses in the first place, so I don't think it's going to start crushing everything in sight. 

Bring Out Your Dead seems alright now. It it doesn't work on sacrificing models so it can't be abused, and it still competes with his other (0) so again it encourages the player to make decisions. It can be blocked by LoS and the Gravedigger can die quick if your opponent desperately wants it gone (unlike Nicodem with Undertaker for example). It seems like it's in a reasonable spot, but more play testing will tell.

(2) Wheelbarrow Ram. Now we're talking! This adds a bit of diversity to this model. If you couldn't get any Corpses in the first place (looking at you, Oni), now it's not all doom and gloom. It seems especially useful as a follow-up in the late game once you've spend all the corpses you're carrying around. This guy goes from ferrying Corpses around for his master to suicidal charges into enemies when he ditches his stock. I absolutely love it.

I couldn't help but notice this guy's height is 2, and there doesn't appear to be anything prohibiting him from pairing up with Kentauroi's new Undead Steed ability. It seems hilarious when you imagine it, but also devastating to an out activated opponent. You can now expressly delivery a full 6" Wheelbarrow Ram from over 20" away in only two activations. Maybe this needs toning down, then again, maybe this is exactly what Ressurs needed xD

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I agree. The changes really made the Gravedigger a model with some options. It can be fighty and also a corpse node.

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Still not sure I'd ever take the Wheel Barrow Charge. Most of the time, with the rounding down, I imagine you will be doing 3-4 dmg that can be defeated by most enemies on an 8-9. I'd rather take the charge and have 2 chances to hit something with a little more control over the outcome myself. There's a good chance I can still do 4 dmg with my two attacks and possibly even more if I get lucky or have corpses in the cart. Yes, it could potentially, with perfect set up do 6dmg, but I think that would be very unlikely. 

I do however like the trigger being built in. That makes him more useful in combat, especially as he needs to be close to the action in order to gather corpses. The change to Bring out Yer Dead is also good as it stops some abuse. Not sure why the push trigger was lost except for space on the card?

Question: If he has more than one corpse in the cart could Nicodem (or anyone) use more than one from him at a time? As it's written now I'm guessing no, but want to be sure. So he couldn't summon off of the Gravedigger using a corpse AND use the trigger to discard another corpse from the wheel barrow for a heal at the same time. Is this a correct interpretation of how it stands now? If so it makes him lightly less useful for Nicodem. Not bad, but limits some uses and you might not want to scoop up all available corpses. 

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This model is not a mobile summoning beacon. This is a model that you put into non-Nico, non-Reva lists to have something to do with all of the corpse markers. I say his because of the apparent lack of synergy that he has with them, based on how he appears to work with their rules. You pick the corpses up, and then use them on the attack. Occasionally you will find a time where someone like Sebastien or Toshiro can summon off of him, but bringing this in a Nico list is a trap, because he's not going to do what you want him to.

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22 minutes ago, jolly_green314 said:

This model is not a mobile summoning beacon. This is a model that you put into non-Nico, non-Reva lists to have something to do with all of the corpse markers. I say his because of the apparent lack of synergy that he has with them, based on how he appears to work with their rules. You pick the corpses up, and then use them on the attack. Occasionally you will find a time where someone like Sebastien or Toshiro can summon off of him, but bringing this in a Nico list is a trap, because he's not going to do what you want him to.

I came here to write the same thing.

When they were released for the first time, I found them absolutely unappealing. But now, with an in-built trigger for increased damage, I want to try them with Molly in some "I don't need those corpses" list, preferably in Resser mirror matchup. I am concerned about their survavibility though.

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I also dont feel very optimistic about gravedigger . While there is certainly an improvement in the model stats, how many corpse counters is he actually going to pick in a game? Being at 3' of droping corpse counters is not going to happen THAT often and walking and spending 0 action to take one is a lot of effort. 

8 wounds with df 5 doesnt allow a model to stay where he wants to, he should concentrate in staying away from a presumable enemy killing charge so activating him to posittion him and activate 'bring your dead'  first seems a loose of tempo. 

I still dont get the role of the model and which master could it work well with. Maybe Kirai? Triggering ikiryo and weak spirits dying near him. Hmm not sure... 

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Molly can generate mass of corpses thanks to her summoning and her agressive playstyle. Until now, the best way to utilize them was to laugh maniacally or summon her three-headed puppy. While I am not sure if giving up these upgrades for sake of Gravedigger's inclusion is better, I'm nevertheless going to try it out. I am not superoptimistic about this guy in his current state, but I think that his design goes in a right direction. I hope I will be able to play a game with him next week and give some constructive feedback.

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3 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Molly can generate mass of corpses thanks to her summoning and her agressive playstyle. Until now, the best way to utilize them was to laugh maniacally or summon her three-headed puppy. While I am not sure if giving up these upgrades for sake of Gravedigger's inclusion is better, I'm nevertheless going to try it out. I am not superoptimistic about this guy in his current state, but I think that his design goes in a right direction. I hope I will be able to play a game with him next week and give some constructive feedback.

I share those concerns, maybe the designer(s) could tell us what they want him to be/do? 

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3 hours ago, mojopin said:

I also dont feel very optimistic about gravedigger . While there is certainly an improvement in the model stats, how many corpse counters is he actually going to pick in a game? Being at 3' of droping corpse counters is not going to happen THAT often and walking and spending 0 action to take one is a lot of effort. 

8 wounds with df 5 doesnt allow a model to stay where he wants to, he should concentrate in staying away from a presumable enemy killing charge so activating him to posittion him and activate 'bring your dead'  first seems a loose of tempo. 

I still dont get the role of the model and which master could it work well with. Maybe Kirai? Triggering ikiryo and weak spirits dying near him. Hmm not sure... 

This is essentially the issue with this model. As I mentioned, this model, as it's written, is only going to be useful as a beater that uses the corpse markers other resser masters don't want. The big issue, though, is he doesn't have any way of protecting himself, besides hoping the opponent doesn't care to kill him. Additionally, if he's going to find a way to pick up 4 corpses so he can maximize his damage on a charge, he's only going to be able to charge 2 inches. 

 

On 5/17/2017 at 11:39 PM, LordZombie said:

I agree. The changes really made the Gravedigger a model with some options. It can be fighty and also a corpse node.

I disagree (respectfully, of course!). This is a model that looks like he has some options. He has no way to keep himself alive. If for some reason he does stay alive AND you get corpses on him, then he can't move enough to get to something to beat down. Additionally, the masters who want a mobile corpse node can't use him because of the way his corpse node ability is worded. 

 

30 minutes ago, Daysleeper said:

I share those concerns, maybe the designer(s) could tell us what they want him to be/do? 

This might be the best way to go about it, because so far this model seems to fall short. If they are going for a corpse battery, then they need to reword "wheelbarrow of corpses" to interact with muwahahaha and strength of the fallen. If they are going for a model that can turn corpses into damage, then remove "wheelbarrow of corpses" and give him something to defend himself with. Right now, it seems like they're trying to make a model with options, and all we're getting is a two halves of two different models whose abilities work against each other. All that does is make a model that's never really going to be useful. 

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What if he could drop a corpse or multiple corpses? It would be a minor buff, but would it open any doors for him? 

For defensive abilities, what if he could use the corpses as armor? If he has a corpse he can discard it to prevent 2dmg? Expensive use of corpses, but can keep him alive. 

To make the 2AP attack a little more worth taking, what if it also Pushed the target? Either a fixed amount or the same as the distance moved? It wouldn't be useful on friendlies unless you want to do dmg, but as I discussed before the dmg possible with the 2ap isn't much different than a regular charge and I think it needs something to make it worth giving up all his ap.

 

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I wholeheartedly agree with above posts, maybe if he could offload 2 corpse counters into a mindless zombie as a 0 action so he can increase his charge again and have the tokens not be useless on him when they can't be used anymore(summoner dies, etc) I'm not too sure his point, but I do see our corpse markers being taken from us as a threat with newer models too...not sure what to do with this guy.

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