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edopersichetti

Bayou Smuggler 5/17

37 posts in this topic

Ok so Barter Economy was clarified, no big deal. Up Sheet's Creek was updated so you need to discard at least one card - but I don't get the change to the trigger. Now this does a completely different thing.

The Swap is nice - a bit random but definitely interesting. Sort of a random Tangle Shadows - potentially very important, and you get two cards if it doesn't work. Is this enough to make him usable?

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Personally I don't see a reason to take him in a list. He is still too slow to be a scheme runner or anti scheme runner, he doesn't want to be a flanker or can't do disruption. Doesn't have the stats to really be around heavy combat to do his disruption (which is pretty costly). 

The ability is nice, but I found half the time I would rather spend the stone and keep 6 cards in my hand. 

 

Outside of Tara I don't see many lists wanting him. 

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The Swap is weird and confusing. I'm still not sure I understand the mechanics of the ability, and what it's supposed to do, and I don't THINK I'm any dumber than the average person. Force my opponent to discard a card with me, so they can't let me dump a card to draw two? If the results are even does my opponent also get to draw two cards? I know that Gremlins are supposed to be weird and random, but this adds confusing to that.

I'm certain there are better ways to purge markers than Up Sheet's Creek even within the Gremlin faction, and it conflicts with one of Som'er's best tricks by punishing you for having no cards in your hand.

The only thing that looks good on him is the 3" engagement range on his paddle with the built in push, and ability to draw a card if your opponent cheats fate to win on a disengaging strike. Maybe the Barter Economy to get a hand of five really good cards. No way is that worth 6/7SS though.

RULES QUESTION: If you have two or more of these, does Barter Economy let you discard additional cards to get back more soulstones?

So if you've got three smugglers, and you spend a soulstone to get two extra cards, can you then discard three additional cards, one for each smuggler, to get three soulstones?

 

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49 minutes ago, ringsnake said:

The Swap is weird and confusing. I'm still not sure I understand the mechanics of the ability, and what it's supposed to do, and I don't THINK I'm any dumber than the average person. Force my opponent to discard a card with me, so they can't let me dump a card to draw two? If the results are even does my opponent also get to draw two cards? I know that Gremlins are supposed to be weird and random, but this adds confusing to that.

I'm certain there are better ways to purge markers than Up Sheet's Creek even within the Gremlin faction, and it conflicts with one of Som'er's best tricks by punishing you for having no cards in your hand.

The only thing that looks good on him is the 3" engagement range on his paddle with the built in push, and ability to draw a card if your opponent cheats fate to win on a disengaging strike. Maybe the Barter Economy to get a hand of five really good cards. No way is that worth 6/7SS though.

RULES QUESTION: If you have two or more of these, does Barter Economy let you discard additional cards to get back more soulstones?

So if you've got three smugglers, and you spend a soulstone to get two extra cards, can you then discard three additional cards, one for each smuggler, to get three soulstones?

 

For the swap your opponent may play a card or may not. If they don't you can pretty much choose what you want (and discarding 1 card to draw 2 more can be useful). If not random stuff happens. Pretty sure opponent gets nothing.

 

As for barter economy since it says you can discard an additional card to get a soul stone, I don't think you get extra soul stones for discarding more than 1 card

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2 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

For the swap your opponent may play a card or may not. If they don't you can pretty much choose what you want (and discarding 1 card to draw 2 more can be useful). If not random stuff happens. Pretty sure opponent gets nothing.

 

As for barter economy since it says you can discard an additional card to get a soul stone, I don't think you get extra soul stones for discarding more than 1 card

That you're no more certain than I am means the rules need to be written more clearly.

Or we're both dumb.

One of the two things anyway.

:P

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The Swap works as follows:   First, you have to beat an enemy model with a WP duel at AV 5 (Which is technically using your WP stat, important because he's a minion and there's a general Leader upgrade for gremlins that can give minions +2 WP.  Also I think old Cranky can give +1 WP.   So AV 5-8 depending on nearby model buffs.)

If you beat your opponent with the WP duel, Your opponent decides whether they are willing to waste a card to try and prevent you from doing a thing.   Either way, you get to do one of two things.   You either get to draw 2 cards, or place a free scheme marker in base contact with the enemy, before swapping places with them.     The caveat is that your opponent can try to throw off what you're trying to do by discarding their card.    If they play an odd, you're going to get the opposite effect of what you wanted.   If they go even, you get what you wanted.    Unless you try to PREDICT Them, and play the opposite of what you want, and.... well... it's all mindgames at that point.

 

It's not too terribly strong, since it's a fairly low cast vs. enemy willpower, and you're not even guaranteed to get what you wanted out of it.   But it's something for them to do at range 12, which allows them to potentially zip around the map just as fast as other more reckless gremlin models.

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It seems funny, I have never stoned for cards, but he seems to give you a bonus to that. What I really like from the Swap trick, is that it seems like a very good card manager. If you find a way to get the WP advantage (choosing a low WP enemy, get into some cool auras), your opponent is in a very bad situation: either he wins against you (if you had better chances, he lost a good card from his deck), spends a card to win against you (you get a card for him cheating), or either lets you do your trick (possibly getting 2 cards or placing a marker and repositioning) or trying to prevent it (spending another card).

Sooo... he can get you some card advantages (high cards from stoning), more cards from buy low or the swap, or makes your opponent spend cards.

Not a model I would be using always, but he seems like a good addition. If he looks like Mctravish, I can see a funny human bayou crew... even for henchman hardcore

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It seems to read that neither player 'has' to place a card face down, correct? The opponent chooses first and may or amy not drop a card. if they don't want to burn a card, then you can make sure to get what your want. If they do burn a card, you don't have to burn one - just see what they dropped and take what you get. 

I really like the ability. 12" range is pretty sweet too, especially to get a scheme marker and some movement out of it (possibly).

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50 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I really like the ability. 12" range is pretty sweet too, especially to get a scheme marker and some movement out of it (possibly).

Reading again, it seems it is an enemy scheme marker, otherwise, it would be an awesome starting move from your now self proclaimed scheme runner

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50 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I really like the ability. 12" range is pretty sweet too, especially to get a scheme marker and some movement out of it (possibly).

Reading again, it seems it is an enemy scheme marker, otherwise, it would be an awesome starting move from your now self proclaimed scheme runner

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Aw... not as useful. But it still a version of Lightning Dance that is longer range and easier to set up (don't need a friendly to teleport the model to). Could be quite annoying for opponents. 

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I think it is a really strong action. Used against a scheme runner - and they are often not very high on WP - you can either get 2 cards for free or force your opponent to drop a card and get their precious scheme runner pulled into engagement with a beater. Remember, if neither player puts down a card the sum is even and you get to draw two cards for just a single (1) action.

Though I haven't tried it out, I think that the Smuggler would see some table time in this incarnation, possibly even as a mercenary.

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The Swap is an awfully complicated way of saying "Draw two cards. You may discard an odd card to place some scheme markers instead."

The opponent really shouldn't ever be discarding any cards for this unless its absolutely critical that you don't get to place those scheme markers, and when he doesn't you shouldn't either if you are fine with drawing cards, because the values of 0 cards always add up to 0 (proof is left to the reader).

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Myyra is largely right, but the odd effect dropping enemy scheme markers makes it occasionally worth the opponent using a card for. 

Still an action that typically reads, win a Wp duel, draw 2 cards isn't at all bad. One which reads win a wp duel , discard a card and switch places with an enemy model isn't bad. But I am now wanting to put Sammy with him to make use of that enemy scheme marker. 

Barter econemy will stack if you want to gain soulstones equal to the number of Smugglers, and Buy low sell high turns Swap into almost garenteed card draw. 

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18 hours ago, codingCaptor said:

The Swap works as follows:   First, you have to beat an enemy model with a WP duel at AV 5 (Which is technically using your WP stat, important because he's a minion and there's a general Leader upgrade for gremlins that can give minions +2 WP.  Also I think old Cranky can give +1 WP.   So AV 5-8 depending on nearby model buffs.)

If you beat your opponent with the WP duel, Your opponent decides whether they are willing to waste a card to try and prevent you from doing a thing.   Either way, you get to do one of two things.   You either get to draw 2 cards, or place a free scheme marker in base contact with the enemy, before swapping places with them.     The caveat is that your opponent can try to throw off what you're trying to do by discarding their card.    If they play an odd, you're going to get the opposite effect of what you wanted.   If they go even, you get what you wanted.    Unless you try to PREDICT Them, and play the opposite of what you want, and.... well... it's all mindgames at that point.

 

It's not too terribly strong, since it's a fairly low cast vs. enemy willpower, and you're not even guaranteed to get what you wanted out of it.   But it's something for them to do at range 12, which allows them to potentially zip around the map just as fast as other more reckless gremlin models.

I see its primary use as getting an enemy model out of position (like Lilith does with Tangle Shadows) rather than moving himself...but that could also be useful. Also note that the scheme marker you place is not yours, is the enemy's. It is random and mind-gamey but you either get 2 cards (or at least 1) or gain your desired effect...it's a nice ability really.

Is this enough to justify 6SS? Hmmm...needs testing. I do play Lilith and sometimes Tangle Shadows can be quite devastating. Pluck the key enemy model from 12" away and drop him right in the middle of your beaters? Game-changer. Move a key model out of scoring position for any position-based scheme/strat? Again, it can potentially deny 1VP every turn...

He is kind of fragile but this could be a nice feature.

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18 hours ago, aquenaton said:

It seems funny, I have never stoned for cards, but he seems to give you a bonus to that. What I really like from the Swap trick, is that it seems like a very good card manager. If you find a way to get the WP advantage (choosing a low WP enemy, get into some cool auras), your opponent is in a very bad situation: either he wins against you (if you had better chances, he lost a good card from his deck), spends a card to win against you (you get a card for him cheating), or either lets you do your trick (possibly getting 2 cards or placing a marker and repositioning) or trying to prevent it (spending another card).

Sooo... he can get you some card advantages (high cards from stoning), more cards from buy low or the swap, or makes your opponent spend cards.

Not a model I would be using always, but he seems like a good addition. If he looks like Mctravish, I can see a funny human bayou crew... even for henchman hardcore

You have never stoned for cards??? :huh:
Wow, that is one of the most crucial uses of Soulstones. I think I do that at least once or twice a game.

The card managing is a nice aspect of it, the potential move out of position is even more game-changing...if it happens :)

But then again, the adversary might not have any cards left in hand (especially end of turn...or with Som'er) or might not want to part with a 13...

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6 hours ago, Adran said:

Myyra is largely right, but the odd effect dropping enemy scheme markers makes it occasionally worth the opponent using a card for. 

Still an action that typically reads, win a Wp duel, draw 2 cards isn't at all bad. One which reads win a wp duel , discard a card and switch places with an enemy model isn't bad. But I am now wanting to put Sammy with him to make use of that enemy scheme marker. 

Barter econemy will stack if you want to gain soulstones equal to the number of Smugglers, and Buy low sell high turns Swap into almost garenteed card draw. 

??

It looks like you guys forgot about the "swap places" aspect of the odd value. That is the main point of this action, with the 2 cards draw being a "consolation prize". It's a Tangle Shadows/Lightning Dance that is not guaranteed to happen, but has some card manipulation to it as a bonus/consolation. Moving an enemy out of position is simply put one of the most potent thing you can possibly do. Deny scoring VP, get a fragile enemy model in the middle of your beaters, or even getting YOUR fragile model out of an enemy beater's face...

Not sure about Barter Economy stacking - it should be clarified. If possible, this would be extra juice.

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6 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

It looks like you guys forgot about the "swap places" aspect of the odd value. That is the main point of this action, with the 2 cards draw being a "consolation prize". It's a Tangle Shadows/Lightning Dance that is not guaranteed to happen, but has some card manipulation to it as a bonus/consolation. Moving an enemy out of position is simply put one of the most potent thing you can possibly do. Deny scoring VP, get a fragile enemy model in the middle of your beaters, or even getting YOUR fragile model out of an enemy beater's face...

I've certainly mentioned it. Its right there in your quote. I'm not sure which is the more powerful effect, as most of the time the models I would want to draw in are scheme runners and I'm giving them a marker, but they are both good effects. Not knowing which one is going to happen is less good, but the draw cards is never a bad thing. 

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Just now, Adran said:

I've certainly mentioned it. Its right there in your quote. I'm not sure which is the more powerful effect, as most of the time the models I would want to draw in are scheme runners and I'm giving them a marker, but they are both good effects. Not knowing which one is going to happen is less good, but the draw cards is never a bad thing. 

Yeah, you give them a marker but I guess it won't be really where they need it...or maybe they don't need one at all. Maybe someone is Guarding the Stash or scoring Interference or the like, and you just pull it out of place - deny 1VP. Maybe you're pulling in another key model (a healer, a buffer/debuffer) etc. Maybe you're also pulling a beater out of your model's face. In all these situations, the marker they get is worth nothing, and you get a huge boon instead. It's not even a push, it's a place, and with the whole "in base contact" thing, you even gain an extra inch or so...

Personal experience with Lilith (both playing her myself, and playing against her) taught me that if done right this is game-changer. Sure drawing 2 cards is great but much less game-changing (I have drawn stuff like a 2 and a 3 before...) and it feels much more like a consolation.

Not knowing which is going to happen is a bit of mind-games, and a bit of Gremlin flavor, but also (and especially, IMO) because making this reliable on a 6SS minion would be too powerful, considering the only other models that can do this are Masters (Yan Lo and Lilith).

Still, I think this model is much more viable now.

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Potentially, you can draw up to 6 cards with his 2 action:

1+1 from two enemy cheated the swap action

2+2 from two the swap effect

9 if you obey him

It's a great card manipulator, and will force you opponent to start thinking how to manage his control hand

Giving.him the +2 wp from liquid bravery help him to win that duel with little cheating, so it become an "autodraw" action

 

Maybe should be "once per turn" ? :/

 

Nice synergy with lilith:

Instead of risking an opposed duel for a tangle shadow, you can the swap with the enemy and then use the smuggler to teleport with safety 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Adran said:

Barter econemy will stack if you want to gain soulstones equal to the number of Smugglers, and Buy low sell high turns Swap into almost garenteed card draw. 

Not sure I agree with this conclusion. I see it as not stacking as written. Perhaps it does need to be clarified one way or the other though. 

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Apply negative Wp debuff of choice (the performer takes up the other merc slot if you haven't got your in-faction solution), force a swap twice, draw all the cards forever?

My heartfelt thanks to those who have tried to disentangle and clarify and explain this model's tricks.

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15 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Yeah, you give them a marker but I guess it won't be really where they need it...or maybe they don't need one at all. Maybe someone is Guarding the Stash or scoring Interference or the like, and you just pull it out of place - deny 1VP. Maybe you're pulling in another key model (a healer, a buffer/debuffer) etc. Maybe you're also pulling a beater out of your model's face. In all these situations, the marker they get is worth nothing, and you get a huge boon instead. It's not even a push, it's a place, and with the whole "in base contact" thing, you even gain an extra inch or so...

Don't forget the opposite side of the spectrum: If the enemy is going for Dig their graves, you just gave them a VP.

I do think it is a good consequence though. It makes for a much more interesting gameplay, and it could (although I believe that's too much wishful thinking on my part) make that particular scheme picked more often if this miniature becomes used too often

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23 hours ago, cfrag said:

Don't forget the opposite side of the spectrum: If the enemy is going for Dig their graves, you just gave them a VP.

I do think it is a good consequence though. It makes for a much more interesting gameplay, and it could (although I believe that's too much wishful thinking on my part) make that particular scheme picked more often if this miniature becomes used too often

Why, because the smuggler could die next to their scheme marker? They still have to kill him, it's not like a guaranteed VP...not to mention he could use his other AP to remove said marker ;)

But yes, this definitely adds to the gameplay. Not sure if this model will be used very often, but as long as it has potential that's fine.

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Played against this model last night, and it was pretty much the gremlin MvP.

First turn, it switched my scheme runner (TT Bro) off the flank to deep amongst his models, while punting itself 12+ inches up the board. It then was able to scheme run comfortably, while I walked an Illuminated out to the flank to try and stop bleeding VP to it and a Bayou Gremlin. With the 3" engagement range and Row, Row, Row trigger, he was able to lock the Illuminated up for two turns while the Bayou Gremlin dropped markers.

In discussing the game afterwards, we agreed he could have had an even bigger impact if he had switched a beater onto the flank once he had displaced the TT Bro. Having both a scheme runner and a beater 12 inches out of position is bonkers, even if it costs you a 6 ss model.

In practice, the swap is really hard to manage for your opponent. If your opponent puts down a card, you can just do nothing, and you get the swap or two cards (for a total 3 card advantage). In practice, as the Gremlin opponent, I never saw a good time to cheat down a card, because both effects are so good for the Gremlin player, and it is really just throwing good money after bad. That means most of the time you will be able to pick your own choice (provided you have the cards in hand).

I like the idea of this ability, but 12" is just bonkers for a place switch. It is currently better than Lightning Rush, Yan Lo's signature move, that has a range of 8".

It also gets around the two counters to normal pulls, firstly it ignores Laugh it Off, as it is a place, and it cares not for your Counterspell auras because it isn't a cast and has no innate suits.

To give it at least some counter-play, I suggest it becomes a normal Ca attack, with inbuilt double suit like a normal pull. I also think 8" is closer to fair for a place ability.

 

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