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Da Git

Cyclops 17/05

33 posts in this topic

Love the change to HtK... Hopefully that should see him actually get his rage on!  I could really see myself running him with Malifaux Provides.  If He gets down to HtK, activate him, discard a ram, then at the end, discard a Scheme marker to go back up to 5wds... it's not much, but will hopefully let him survive a bit longer with judicious use of Ice Pillars.

Speaking of which, I doubt this is right, but if you discard a Mask for Foresight, can the Ice Pillar Markers be placed within 2" of the Cyclops?  Highly doubt it as it specifies in Base contact with this model, but thought I'd ask.

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Ice Pillars action has no Range, so: no. ;)

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I am so so on hard to kill. Eat Your Fill was actually helpful in my game till Zipp activated and played a large psychological effect first turn. Hard to kill have use as long as you can keep him above 1 wd or bring him back up, which Malifaux Provides, Dreamer and Titania all could be helpful with. Outside of those we have Candy, Serena or Coppelius all of which have no more then a 3 inch range. Of those Candy is probably the best as she has casting expert and can be given depression so she can mitigate the suit requirement fallowed by Coppelius because it is a zero and requires only an eye condition. All options mean you are spending almost as much to more then the models cost to keep it alive. The best part about loosing eat your fill is that you can now do zeros after charging because you loose the option to drop that action to heal.

 

I do think the change ups the Cyclopes synergy with Titania because it now means he can always zero and gives her some incentive to heal him other then just wd.

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I'm actually particularly worried about the not on top of markers addition to Ice Pillars.  We already have a number of models that can place all sorts of markers around with more added this release, web markers, lair markers, quarantine markers, suppression markers, triggers like drop it, etc.  Since the Cyclops is limited to only base to base to use this ability, unlike Tina, I do really wonder how easy it will be to block the use of Ice Pillars.

 

I think this would be a good area to test.

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12 minutes ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

I'm actually particularly worried about the not on top of markers addition to Ice Pillars.  We already have a number of models that can place all sorts of markers around with more added this release, web markers, lair markers, quarantine markers, suppression markers, triggers like drop it, etc.  Since the Cyclops is limited to only base to base to use this ability, unlike Tina, I do really wonder how easy it will be to block the use of Ice Pillars.

 

I think this would be a good area to test.

None of those markers are terrain that can block a narrow point.

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2 minutes ago, trikk said:

None of those markers are terrain that can block a narrow point.

Yup, but any of them could potentially render the Cyclops' ability useless

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Just now, MetaphoricDragn said:

Yup, but any of them could potentially render the Cyclops' ability useless

Considering its a 0 you have 2 Walks to move to a different place so I don`t find it that troubling.

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10 minutes ago, trikk said:

None of those markers are terrain that can block a narrow point.

I think the problem is this sentence: "(0) Ice Wall (Ca 3 / TN: 10): Place two Ice Pillar Markers touching each other in
base contact with this model, not touching any other models or markers."

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I'm not happy with the change to HtK - I find Eat your Fill more useful, would have made it more survivable. HtK only delays your death by 1 more AP...

Not saying HtK is bad, not at all, it's a great skill, but in comparison, I found EyF more appropriate and more versatile. There is also the trouble with the Ice Pillars - not enough flexibility IMO. In base contact AND not touching models/markers...I can see games where this never happens.

Mmmmm right now it feels like a model with the potential to be great, but that will underperform.

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With a built in heal, and the ability to get more from malifaux provides, HtK will really bump up this guy's durability.

But I wonder if it makes them too similar to rougarou now. Both have nearly identical front of card stats with HtK and a healing ability. One has pounce and the other gets a bonus when they're injured. Their attack is fairly similar as well, until cyclopean rage makes one a monster. So only their zero actions and ability to hold an upgrade differentiates them in a significant way.

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I have tested them yesterday,i talk with my opponent about the lacks of HtW or HtK, for me now they really good. The rage is more safe to take with a little bit of healing around.

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Frozen pillars would probably best be served by saying "not touching Models or Terrain" as that would cover not touching terrain markers but ignore miscellaneous markers.

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8 hours ago, Rabbitknight said:

Frozen pillars would probably best be served by saying "not touching Models or Terrain" as that would cover not touching terrain markers but ignore miscellaneous markers.

Covering up a squat marker in squatters rights is a bad thing.  

(Same can apply to head markers and scheme markers and possibly a few others)

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Covering up a squad marker, head and sceme markers is a well known and established tactic.

Standing on top of these markers and dropping the Pillars in front or standing a little behind them and dropping pillars on top makes almost zero difference to an opponent. 

 

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On 5/17/2017 at 0:02 PM, Sharp_GT said:

But I wonder if it makes them too similar to rougarou now. Both have nearly identical front of card stats with HtK and a healing ability. One has pounce and the other gets a bonus when they're injured. Their attack is fairly similar as well, until cyclopean rage makes one a monster. So only their zero actions and ability to hold an upgrade differentiates them in a significant way.

I see fairly significant differences between Rougarou and Cyclops. First being station, next being blasts, and third being min damage. That alone is a fairly drastic difference to me.

The Rougarou I'd be using to abuse pounces and/or trying to utilize his minion station. The Cyclops I'd use as a beater and now my newest blaster (currently we have very limited options).  Having min 3 dmg at 8ss puts him near the top of my list for dmgy models besides Johan and Graves.

Cyclops' Frozen rune is cool and sweet - with Titania that ability is going to be absolutely bonkers ^_^

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RingSnake made an interesting point in the Serena forum section.
Besides hitting a TN 7 - You could technically spam 5 Cyclops and drop 10x 50mm Ice Pillars blocking off the board (impassible and blocking markers) making some really stupid situations.

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Feeling kind of indifferent to the change this week, all it does it take the finesse out of using this model, personally would have preferred to eat your fill over Htk and just give the fella a :mask to his DF, giving more tools to work with defensively, as when not looking at it in a vacuum with side by side comparisons he has many df options when taking other models in crew plus upgrades etc. my fear is the NB models losing their flavor of finesse and trickery. 

probably sounded harsher than intended, its a case of awww that changed. oh well moving on

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1 hour ago, Lordgimpet said:

Feeling kind of indifferent to the change this week, all it does it take the finesse out of using this model, personally would have preferred to eat your fill over Htk and just give the fella a :mask to his DF, giving more tools to work with defensively, as when not looking at it in a vacuum with side by side comparisons he has many df options when taking other models in crew plus upgrades etc. my fear is the NB models losing their flavor of finesse and trickery. 

probably sounded harsher than intended, its a case of awww that changed. oh well moving on

It's not like Neverborn are all finesse and trickery. The faction is well known for its rather blunt beaters as well, like Teddy, Mature Nephilim and Nekima.

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17 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

It's not like Neverborn are all finesse and trickery. The faction is well known for its rather blunt beaters as well, like Teddy, Mature Nephilim and Nekima.

Yup so why another? Or rather why must all our beaters be that way 

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20 minutes ago, Lordgimpet said:

Yup so why another? Or rather why must all our beaters be that way 

Never said they were, not did I agree the Cyclops was one. I just disagreed that Neverborn were all tricky or finesse models, since they're plainly not.

The cyclops has its own tricks, throwing up blocking terrain markers, using scheme markers to do random effects, discarding cards for additional range on its melee attack or healing. I'm not sure how changing Eat your Fill to Hard to Kill alone changed it from being a tricky beater to a blunt beater.

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2 hours ago, Lordgimpet said:

Feeling kind of indifferent to the change this week, all it does it take the finesse out of using this model, personally would have preferred to eat your fill over Htk and just give the fella a :mask to his DF, giving more tools to work with defensively, as when not looking at it in a vacuum with side by side comparisons he has many df options when taking other models in crew plus upgrades etc. my fear is the NB models losing their flavor of finesse and trickery. 

probably sounded harsher than intended, its a case of awww that changed. oh well moving on

Strongly disagree with this. 

EYF had lots of anti-synergy with this model. It already had a heal (albeit smaller) by discarding a Ram. It really wants to be between 1-5 wds to get Rage which HtK helps with. Also, with EYF you can't use Ice Wall after killing a model to shield himself from reprisal. 

HtK, to my eyes, synergises so much better with this model's mechanics and what it's trying to achieve. 

@D_acolyte, you said in your game that EYF was a good psyk-out for your opponent, was this the reason he focused (and killed) it with Zipp? From memory, you  said you forgot to cast Ice Wall (although you couldn't have after EYF)? Would this have saved him? 

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1 hour ago, Da Git said:

@D_acolyte, you said in your game that EYF was a good psyk-out for your opponent, was this the reason he focused (and killed) it with Zipp? From memory, you  said you forgot to cast Ice Wall (although you couldn't have after EYF)? Would this have saved him? 

I said I should have, what happened was I forgot eat your fill ended your activation. Looking back at it i would have still done what I did. I needed to kill that model in order to put the pillars where I wanted because they do not give cover: "50mm bases with Ht 5 and the blocking and impassible traits". As for stopping Zipp from seeing him, the ice pillars would not have helped. At a movement 8 and flying Zipp would have gotten line of sight, all it would have done was change the placement he would have needed.

I have replayed that turn a few times in my mind, end result is this: If you are engage then unless you are at 4 inches because of discarding a :mask then you will need to clear the field to allow for the blocking of lino of sight to you; so it comes down to move or kill to make the room.

As for the EYF psychological effect, that came from the fact that with two hits and the possible ability to increase his range my opponent felt he was pressured to kill him early while he had the means to. Most of my opponent crew would die if the Cyclops connected with 2 attacks. Not so much a psyk-out as I feel that give the connotation of something similar to a bluff but more of mental pressure. This was not a bluff but a threat, and one that was thought through. On that flank if he did not commit Zipp then he only had an iron skeeter after the survivor died which would have a very hard time chewing through 9 wd but if he took the iron skeeter and Zipp to the center then because the Cyclops had warp reality, between the daydreams and the Dreamer, I could redeploy him quickly. Once he made it to the center with all those "soft" targets there was no telling what could have happened and how many he could kill before being killed. My opponent made the right call and got lucky, but because I put him in a position where that was the choice he had to make I knew who I had to frame for murder and netted getting 3 points.

The only models that could survive 2 hits from a retribution's eye cyclops where possibly the Taxidermist, Big Brain Brin, Sparks and Zipp and non of them would look good after that fight with most being near death.

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2 hours ago, Da Git said:

EYF had lots of anti-synergy with this model. It already had a heal (albeit smaller) by discarding a Ram. It really wants to be between 1-5 wds to get Rage which HtK helps with. Also, with EYF you can't use Ice Wall after killing a model to shield himself from reprisal. 

nailed it, that was a pretty big non-bo right there on the front of the card. I think HtK might not be a perfect fit, but it sure lets him get use out of cyclopean rage more consistently. If it's going to be a big, burly, muscly giant maybe it just needed a bunch more wounds total?

I did like the idea of healing off of a kill, but I don't know if it was going to make sense on a spear wielding giant from fluff standpoint. In fact, the original build of cyclops was all about having lots of ways to heal, which was pretty cool, but as we saw it was very easy to focus and kill.

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I'd also agree that the no markers hugely limits the options for Ice Wall.  First off, he's a Fae, so his in-fluff crew master is Titania and the other Fae...  Now what do these guys pump out like candy?  Scheme Markers!  So huge anti-synergy there.  That aside, just on his own.  Charge and kill an enemy model, all they have to do is place the scrap/corpse marker on the Cyclops side of its base and suddenly no Ice Wall for protection.  That very much equals sad Cyclops (likely to be followed by dead Cyclops!).

These aren't Shard Markers or Raspy's Ice pillars that can be cast from 10" away (more with Ice Mirror), the fact that Ice Wall has to be in base contact already severely limited their placement.  As for blocking Claim markers or the like, well, you can already park a 40-50mm base over them to do just that... Popping Joss (10wds with Armour2, HtK, Reactivate on HtK and possibly Regen)  is a much tougher nut to crack.  It's also not like the Ice Wall will be there all game either, they disappear the moment the Cyclops does (usually because of death, but buried works too).

In summary, I thought just the not on models (for obvious reasons really) was perfectly fine.  Perhaps a happy middle ground might be no Strategy Markers (so not on Claim/Extraction/etc), would that work?

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I think Eat Your Fill leads to more tactical options and play where Hard To Kill will generally lead him to play more recklessly and like a battering ram especially early game.

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