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Myyrä

Flying Piglet 5/17

29 posts in this topic

I dislike giving them additional wounds when they are summoned. Giving perfectly good (non-master) summoners more powerful summoning options is rather questionable in and itself (or does someone feel like the summoners need a buff?). Flying Piglets' offensive and scheming capability is really high compared to Stuffed Piglets. I don't see why their durability should also be so similar.

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Well there scheme marker ability got changed so they cant do it if it would kill them, so i think they need the extra W when being summoned. They still die to many models in 1 hit so i dont see the problem them. It at least makes for a more interesting choice when summoning a stuffed vs a flying. 

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6 minutes ago, Sergrum said:

Well there scheme marker ability got changed so they cant do it if it would kill them, so i think they need the extra W when being summoned.

Why assume the marker ability can't be changed again?

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They still die to many models in 1 hit so i dont see the problem them.

They survive one hit from many more models than before. If it doesn't really matter how durable they are as long as some models can kill them with 1 hit, why not make the wound count 5 or 1 when they are summoned?

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It at least makes for a more interesting choice when summoning a stuffed vs a flying. 

The people who tried them seemed to think they were quite interesting enough as summons.

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They weren't interesting as summons. I noted in my game the flying pig summon died faster than the stuffed would have to Asura rotten and a mindless zombie where a stuffed pig would have been much better. 

I think coming in at 3 wounds at least makes them somewhat interesting summons compared to a stuffed pig, but I still wouldn't hire them (just generally wouldn't hire an insignificant peon unless they are dirt cheat or amazing). 

 

I feel as a general rule if the flying pig can't survive between being summoned and it's activation than a stuffed pig would be better. If you just want a speed bump to annoy opponents and do some damage than a stuffed pig is also better. If you think it will survive long enough to be able to drop a scheme marker or there is some really squishy target in the opponents backline than the flying pig might work. 

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2 hours ago, wizuriel said:

They weren't interesting as summons. I noted in my game the flying pig summon died faster than the stuffed would have to Asura rotten and a mindless zombie where a stuffed pig would have been much better. 

I think coming in at 3 wounds at least makes them somewhat interesting summons compared to a stuffed pig, but I still wouldn't hire them (just generally wouldn't hire an insignificant peon unless they are dirt cheat or amazing). 

 

I feel as a general rule if the flying pig can't survive between being summoned and it's activation than a stuffed pig would be better. If you just want a speed bump to annoy opponents and do some damage than a stuffed pig is also better. If you think it will survive long enough to be able to drop a scheme marker or there is some really squishy target in the opponents backline than the flying pig might work. 

I'm of the same opinion. This was an attempt, but I still don't think they are completely fixed. Still wouldn't hire them over a normal piglet, and it's debatable whether I would summon them - most times stuffed piglet is just better.

Clearly the model was designed to give summoners another option - so we're not here debating whether it should or shouldn't. If this is not enticing to summon, it'll never see play, so there is completely no point releasing it.

I'd take back the extra wound and add Hard to Kill. At least for a week of testing. This is much more likely to ensure they survive their first turn of life.

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I like the new changes, now it seems like a "drop a corpse, put a scheme and get an activation", so can be fantastic for a summon from an enforcer. I do not see myself hiring them from the beggining, but now they are a good summoning option. If I played Ulix, or had some way of healing from afar, they could be a viable hired model. That way I could see them as WW2 airplanes, flying afar, dropping their charges and then rushing home for more fuel before being shot down :D

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19 hours ago, wizuriel said:

They weren't interesting as summons. I noted in my game the flying pig summon died faster than the stuffed would have to Asura rotten and a mindless zombie where a stuffed pig would have been much better.

It's not like the possibility of summoning Flying Piglets forces you to do it every time. The summoner will become more powerful if the new summon is optimal even 1% of the time.

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10 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

It's not like the possibility of summoning Flying Piglets forces you to do it every time. The summoner will become more powerful if the new summon is optimal even 1% of the time.

and are people worried about the gremlin taxidermist - a df5, wp4 enforcer with few wounds for 7ss - suddenly becoming massively broken?  I like the model, but I don't think he is topping the power curve of his bracket by any means with this change.

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1 hour ago, Joel said:

and are people worried about the gremlin taxidermist - a df5, wp4 enforcer with few wounds for 7ss - suddenly becoming massively broken?  I like the model, but I don't think he is topping the power curve of his bracket by any means with this change.

I'm more worried about Sammy really.

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ok played the flying piglet under the new rules ok the extra wound did make him helpful when summoning from a taxidermist cause he popped out and dropped a scheme to try and get me a point for the objective to have a scheme marker in there deployment zone and then caused  threat to sonnia cause he could charge next round if he survived with only one wound but with the having 3 wounds and being able to come out drop a scheme marker he can be a pretty good way to get scheme markers out

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4 hours ago, Myyrä said:

I'm more worried about Sammy really.

Sammy is a nice little henchman, but she's hardly game-breaking and you can't really call her "a summoner". We're not talking about The Dreamer (who by the way DID get a power up with Serena Bowman) or even Som'er. I don't think it's worth making a new model if it is never hired and only summoned even say 30% of the times...

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3 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

I don't think it's worth making a new model if it is never hired and only summoned even say 30% of the times...

I would have to disagree with you there.

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22 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I would have to disagree with you there.

I think you would disagree with most people. We already have plenty of models that hardly see play (well, at least competitively).

If this is a model that will only ever be summoned and never hired, that's already a huge drawback - this happens for Mindless Zombies or Voodoo Doll for example...but the difference is that these are summoned all the time, not every now and then...

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3 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

 I don't think it's worth making a new model if it is never hired and only summoned even say 30% of the times...

I would probably agree with your argument, but disagree with flying piglets being the example; I rather like the little guys. Though I haven't played with them yet, I could consider hiring them into a Ulix crew. They could pull him along at a very respectable pace with walk 5(6 near Penelope). Also while the damage track and Ml 4 are not impressive, it does not have Set'er off, has no downsides to its triggers, and the triggers it does have can be incredibly useful.

If we are talking about justifying its existence, it's new, interesting, shiny (albeit a little smelly and rotten) and I'd love to give it a test pilot. 

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22 hours ago, aquenaton said:

I like the new changes, now it seems like a "drop a corpse, put a scheme and get an activation", so can be fantastic for a summon from an enforcer. I do not see myself hiring them from the beggining, but now they are a good summoning option. If I played Ulix, or had some way of healing from afar, they could be a viable hired model. That way I could see them as WW2 airplanes, flying afar, dropping their charges and then rushing home for more fuel before being shot down :D

Why not WW1 planes? They have much more interesting paint jobs to paint onto the sides of the flying piglets. :lol:

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Really not a fan of "I stitched on some wings!" I think a 0 cost upgrade with that ability on would be a better way to go, possibly also make it not take up a slot.

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13 minutes ago, Durza said:

Really not a fan of "I stitched on some wings!" I think a 0 cost upgrade with that ability on would be a better way to go, possibly also make it not take up a slot.

"On Wings of Bacon"?

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12 hours ago, AverageGatsby said:

I would probably agree with your argument, but disagree with flying piglets being the example; I rather like the little guys. Though I haven't played with them yet, I could consider hiring them into a Ulix crew. They could pull him along at a very respectable pace with walk 5(6 near Penelope). Also while the damage track and Ml 4 are not impressive, it does not have Set'er off, has no downsides to its triggers, and the triggers it does have can be incredibly useful.

If we are talking about justifying its existence, it's new, interesting, shiny (albeit a little smelly and rotten) and I'd love to give it a test pilot. 

Let's play with them then and see, I haven't tested them yet in their new form. I might be wrong and they could actually be useful. The main drawback I see is that they are a 4ss Insignificant Peon. With the new set of schemes/strategies, this is a major downside. So they are a bit expensive to be just a "nuisance" piece like Stuffed Piglets but not really effective as a regular piglet (who can drop scheme markers and count for schemes). As I said, I might be wrong...but I see them as a summoning-option only.

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9 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Let's play with them then and see, I haven't tested them yet in their new form. I might be wrong and they could actually be useful. The main drawback I see is that they are a 4ss Insignificant Peon. With the new set of schemes/strategies, this is a major downside. So they are a bit expensive to be just a "nuisance" piece like Stuffed Piglets but not really effective as a regular piglet (who can drop scheme markers and count for schemes). As I said, I might be wrong...but I see them as a summoning-option only.

While they are insignificant peons, they also do still get to put down 2 scheme markers (assuming they don't get beat up) and actually have some reasonable counterplay into other scheme runners they would likely tangle with if they go off doing "scheme running" detail.

They may be insignificant peons, but they're pretty functional scheme runners for all that.

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I think the extra wound makes them useful. I kinda disagree with HtK as I think that makes them a little too tough for what they are. I don't really see a problem with them being 4ss either - but I think realistically they're fodder for Sammy and Taxidermists to summon. I'm actually cool with that - I don't think they're quite perfect but the extra wound IMO goes a long way.

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Diving charge and pigcharge is a really big deal.    Bowled over is a good trigger, and thanks to diving charge they're guarneteed 4 shots to get it off, from whatever position will push the opponent in a useful direction.   Plus, 1/2/3 + poison is good.    Also anti-scheme running on crows which you can similarly make sure you're positioned correctly for.

Like, yes, that crow could remove your scheme marker if you're not careful, but really with diving charge and a 7 inch charge range it's almost never going to come up unless that's literally your only option.   And it only goes off on success.

A 4pt model that can dish out slow at AV5 is similarly great.   Denying an expensive model its AP is huge.  If the range was any higher I'd call it OP.

I think dropping scheme markers with them is a trap.   It takes an AP, takes 2 wounds, and it takes a 7.    Yes it ignores all the usual scheme marker problems (4" deadzone, engagement, etc.)  50/50 success chances on a flip just isn't reliable enough to send them as scheme runners, as they'll be pulling cards out of my hand that I need elsewhere.

 

It might be interesting to bring them with Mah and some Akaname.    ML5 for Poison+1, at a guaranteed 4 attacks (and only requiring a 6 to drop a scheme marker)  comboing into akaname's poison shenangins could be fun.     But that's a REALLY glass cannon build.   But... ya know... gremlins.   Just gonna have to live with DF/WP 4/4 models.

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Eh. I don't think it's a trap exactly. I mean they just... drop the marker, you know? It has uses where you can't drop a marker in other ways due to engagements and the like. I would totally sacrifice a pig for a point, especially if it's summoned. Merris does it better, mind. But it's not really a trap, just a tool that you need to use right.

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I played a game this week with the 5/17 iteration and heres a brief summary. I'm happy to provide further detail is desired.

I hired one (just to observe what it would accomplish) and also hired a Taxidermist with the intent of summoning Flying Piglets.

1) Match was a 35 SS game with me taking Zipp against Mcmourning. I took Accusation and Covert Breakthrough with the hopes that the Flying Piglet could contribute to Covert Breakthrough.

2) The hired piglet was able to dump a scheme marker and use Pig Charge and Diving Charge to bounce back and forth between a few models. He died on turn three to a hit from the Bag of Bones, but was able to push that same model away from my Covert Breakthrough markers with Bowled Over. He successfully dealt maybe two or three wounds before dying, which is disappointing. BUT....he did accomplish his objective of supporting my scheme attempt.

3) The Taxidermist was able to summon up two Flying Piglets using corpse markers. One of these jetted towards the enemy deployment zone to drop a scheme marker. This piglet was able to eventually engage Mcmourning's Chihuahua, push it away from an Iron Skeeter to prevent the dog's aura from killing the Skeeter, block a movement lane and enable the Iron Skeeter to drop my third Breakthrough marker. I don't remember precisely what the third did, but he basically just harassed enemy models with little effect before dying.

4) So all in all I'm pleased with the additional wound. It allowed me to summon them and dump a scheme marker. Not real happy with their melee prowess, but I have to remind myself it is a 4 SS model and I summoned two of them. Plus, by engaging the right models and with some luck I was able to push two enemy models using their melee triggers.

I previously commented that I wish they had flight. I don't think that's my opinion anymore. I wish they could drop a scheme marker even if taking the wounds would kill them. Otherwise their general squishyness is almost too hard to overcome.

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15 hours ago, Clement said:

While they are insignificant peons, they also do still get to put down 2 scheme markers (assuming they don't get beat up) and actually have some reasonable counterplay into other scheme runners they would likely tangle with if they go off doing "scheme running" detail.

They may be insignificant peons, but they're pretty functional scheme runners for all that.

Mmmm I disagree. They still need to use an AP to drop the marker, but they need to flip a 7 AND take 2 damage. For 1 SS less, a Bayou Gremlin can do much better: with drunk and reckless can drop 2 markers in same activation for 2 wds and no TN, and he counts for schemes. They are a much more well-rounded piece, so from a hiring point of view there is really no comparison. As a summons, instead, they are potentially useful, even if they get to drop a single marker or annoy the opponent a little.

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12 hours ago, the tick said:

I played a game this week with the 5/17 iteration and heres a brief summary. I'm happy to provide further detail is desired.

I hired one (just to observe what it would accomplish) and also hired a Taxidermist with the intent of summoning Flying Piglets.

1) Match was a 35 SS game with me taking Zipp against Mcmourning. I took Accusation and Covert Breakthrough with the hopes that the Flying Piglet could contribute to Covert Breakthrough.

2) The hired piglet was able to dump a scheme marker and use Pig Charge and Diving Charge to bounce back and forth between a few models. He died on turn three to a hit from the Bag of Bones, but was able to push that same model away from my Covert Breakthrough markers with Bowled Over. He successfully dealt maybe two or three wounds before dying, which is disappointing. BUT....he did accomplish his objective of supporting my scheme attempt.

3) The Taxidermist was able to summon up two Flying Piglets using corpse markers. One of these jetted towards the enemy deployment zone to drop a scheme marker. This piglet was able to eventually engage Mcmourning's Chihuahua, push it away from an Iron Skeeter to prevent the dog's aura from killing the Skeeter, block a movement lane and enable the Iron Skeeter to drop my third Breakthrough marker. I don't remember precisely what the third did, but he basically just harassed enemy models with little effect before dying.

4) So all in all I'm pleased with the additional wound. It allowed me to summon them and dump a scheme marker. Not real happy with their melee prowess, but I have to remind myself it is a 4 SS model and I summoned two of them. Plus, by engaging the right models and with some luck I was able to push two enemy models using their melee triggers.

I previously commented that I wish they had flight. I don't think that's my opinion anymore. I wish they could drop a scheme marker even if taking the wounds would kill them. Otherwise their general squishyness is almost too hard to overcome.

Interesting report, thanks! Have you tried to give Slow to anyone? That seems like the main strength of this model IMO. Other than that, it looks, like you say, that they are very squishy.

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