Leveticus in Eliminate the Leadership

[Seadhna]

I got into a heated debate on a recent tournament.

My opponent took Eliminate on Levi. The pertinent part is "When the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, killed or sacrificed, you get 1 VP"

On my first turn, I use his (0) to sacrifice Levi and summon a Hollow Waif.

Now, there's two ways this can be played out.

1. My version: Pariah's Soul states "if this model is killed or sacrificed, it is not killed or sacrificed". Hence, my opponent doesn't get a point for Eliminate, since Levi's "sacrificed" state is substituted by a bury effect and he doesn't count as sacrificed.

2. His version: for Pariah's Soul to trigger, Levi needs to enter the "sacrificed" state, which in turn triggers Eliminate.

 

So, is there a rules-based consensus on the topic or is this one of the mysteries surrounding model death in Malifaux?

[Dogmantra]

Leveticus is not sacrificed because it says specifically that he is not sacrificed. You don't score if he uses his (0).

[Ludvig]

40 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

so it's just a case of sloppy wording then, and Pariah's Soul actually reads "If this model WOULD BE killed or sacrificed"?

It's not sloppy, abilities are just allowed to retroactively change the state of models.

The slopoy part is that they forgot to include that you resolve all triggers and abilities before schenes and strats score (based on the state of the tablr after abilities and triggers).That part was in the m 1.5 rulebook but gt missed in m2e.

[Seadhna]

7 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Leveticus is not sacrificed because it says specifically that he is not sacrificed. You don't score if he uses his (0).

so it's just a case of sloppy wording then, and Pariah's Soul actually reads "If this model WOULD BE killed or sacrificed"?

[Seadhna]

15 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

It's not sloppy, abilities are just allowed to retroactively change the state of models.

The slopoy part is that they forgot to include that you resolve all triggers and abilities before schenes and strats score (based on the state of the tablr after abilities and triggers).That part was in the m 1.5 rulebook but gt missed in m2e.

now that's the thing I was looking for. 

Thank you!

[solkan]

51 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

so it's just a case of sloppy wording then, and Pariah's Soul actually reads "If this model WOULD BE killed or sacrificed"?

It's done consistently for abilities that trigger on death to do something else to the model.  More importantly, if it said "If this model would be killed" that would cause problems with the "Dead and Buried" rules.  

You may as well make the same complaint about abilities that reduce the amount of damage a model suffers to 0 resulting in the model not satisfying "on damaging" triggers.  

[Ray]

Just a bit confused. In GG2017 does Levi give the VP for "sacrificing" himself? Many thanks! 

[Ludvig]

7 minutes ago, Ray said:

Just a bit confused. In GG2017 does Levi give the VP for "sacrificing" himself? Many thanks! 

No, not unless he stays buried until the end of the game.

[Adran]

5 minutes ago, Ray said:

Just a bit confused. In GG2017 does Levi give the VP for "sacrificing" himself? Many thanks! 

Sacrificing himself and having an ability which says when he is sacrificed instead he is buried, means that when you get to look for scoring, he isn't sacrificed. So him using his (0) action does not get you the point. neither does you killing him with decapitate or similar trigger because he turns the "killed" to "not killed". Reducing him to 0 wounds will score you that point, and its the easiest way to get it vs Levi. (You can kill him when he is buried to score that point)

[Ray]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Sacrificing himself and having an ability which says when he is sacrificed instead he is buried, means that when you get to look for scoring, he isn't sacrificed. So him using his (0) action does not get you the point. neither does you killing him with decapitate or similar trigger because he turns the "killed" to "not killed". Reducing him to 0 wounds will score you that point, and its the easiest way to get it vs Levi. (You can kill him when he is buried to score that point)

Thanks! Great to have this cleared up. 

[Artiee]

6 hours ago, Ray said:

Just a bit confused. In GG2017 does Levi give the VP for "sacrificing" himself? Many thanks! 

It was GG2016 he would give the VP when he was removed from the board.   I liked that one.