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Rogue1

Thallarian Queller

74 posts in this topic

Mage's arcane shield cannot be maintained by discarding a card, leaving them vulnerable after they've activated. Also, you can't claim Oxfordians cost 5SS when you have to take all three to reduce their cost to that amount, there is some inherent inefficiency attached to them when you can't just add them as a one of for 5SS.

Edit: Oxfordians serve very different roles to Quellers and I don't think they can be compared very easily, especially because one of the main upsides of the Queller doesn't improve with greater numbers, the suppression markers. One Thalarian Queller has a lot of upside by providing suppression markers on a 3:tome or more and you don't get much of an improvement on that ability by hiring more Quellers. Comparing them to Oxfordians is kind of like comparing a 6 cost to a 15 cost in some ways.

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Except they work for a faction with 2 summoners which helps out with activation control which helps out with maintaining arcane shield. They also have no reason to ever be closer to the enemy than 10". This guy does.

 

In other words: with 6 Wds you HAVE TO use Concentrated Shielding or you go down really fast

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The suppression markers are extremely strong, especially on a 6SS minion. There has to be a choice on the Guild player's side to risk this minion and there has to be ways to take him down without dedicating 4 AP to it (I am hoping the next version of the card includes a removal of the markers once the Queller is dead).

7Wd with pseudo armour and 5Df/6Wp is way too good, especially since his debuffing abilities are so far ranged.

3 hours ago, trikk said:

In other words: with 6 Wds you HAVE TO use Concentrated Shielding or you go down really fast

Unless their whole focus is to hold markers/zones or unless their abilities are short ranged, 6SS minions should go down reasonably fast imho.

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They are also hard to get because you don't have that high chances of getting the required tomes. I totally agree about removing them when they are killed tho.

Df5 Wp6 are pretty mediocre. The pseudo armor only works until you activate and 3 out of 4 actions on his cards want him to activate early. If you activate him early and use concentrated shielding you have a durable miniom and a smaller handsize.

As for 6SS models being easy to take down, look at Silent Ones please.

 

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Silent ones are Df3/Wp4, 6 Wd.

Granted the built in trigger is very good but they still have to take a full hit before triggering it.

Their Rg attack is Rg 10 while their (very good) support ability is Rg6. This coupled with a Wk 4, Cg 5.

The control element they bring needs a suit (like the Queller), requires a 4+, and needs damage to occur and is removed at the end of the turn.

Their Ml3 attack is 1/1/6 (granted there is a Paralyzing trigger but Ml3 is really unimpressive).

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Silent Ones have no reason to be close to the enemy because theybdish out a lot of damage from 10" away and even more with Mirrors. They require 5 min 2 hits. 4 min 3 hits. 3 min 4 hits. 

The Queller without Arcane Shield is straight out weaker. The Queller with Shielding requires more weak hits (6 min 2) but they are the same with weak 3+. So if you spend the card Queller is better at defense but I'd say he's still worse at offense.

And I didn't take into account the heal ;)

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I think this model is sort of fine. 
It's pretty good for 6ss but it's still a minion and guild dont have much fast outside of nellie.
Markers are scarry, yes. Enchanted weapon is good too, but i dont see this model as the OP. Also queller is hungry for cards (1-3 cards per turn). If you are unlucky two of this guys can mess your hand even before your opponents beatsticks started pulling 12/13 on attack.
Another big downside of this model is poor damage for 6ss. 
Maybe it should be 6wd or have 4df but outside of that I think this one is pretty balanced.

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2 hours ago, FinalForm said:

I think this model is sort of fine. 
It's pretty good for 6ss but it's still a minion and guild dont have much fast outside of nellie.
Markers are scarry, yes. Enchanted weapon is good too, but i dont see this model as the OP. Also queller is hungry for cards (1-3 cards per turn). If you are unlucky two of this guys can mess your hand even before your opponents beatsticks started pulling 12/13 on attack.
Another big downside of this model is poor damage for 6ss. 
Maybe it should be 6wd or have 4df but outside of that I think this one is pretty balanced.

Wyrd's job is usually good in terms of balancing, we are speaking of a 1SS tweak and a bit of cuddle.

My main concern about this model is that it is a hard counter to suited defensive & offensive triggers as well as any kind of damage reduction. The model is card hungry but I would happily throw away a card to remove all suits from Pandora, Collette, Collodi, Lilith, Titania or any other suit depending master.

We are talking about a 6SS minion that can significantly hinder both the offense & the defense of your opponent's most dangerous pieces from 12" away. This is even more potent for strategies requiring to hold zones/markers.

Additionally, I would gladly spend one AP from my minion to allow my long range models to potentially one shot some of the more squeashy incorporeal/armoured models (or to allow Francisco to wreck faces even more efficiency than he usually does).

At the end of the game, this model can even participate in the melee and dish out a significant amount of damage to finish out any hard target that survived (I do not think that the damage track is especially low, it is very respectable when you see what it ignores and its precision).

2 hours ago, trikk said:

Silent Ones have no reason to be close to the enemy because theybdish out a lot of damage from 10" away and even more with Mirrors. They require 5 min 2 hits. 4 min 3 hits. 3 min 4 hits. 

The Queller without Arcane Shield is straight out weaker. The Queller with Shielding requires more weak hits (6 min 2) but they are the same with weak 3+. So if you spend the card Queller is better at defense but I'd say he's still worse at offense.

And I didn't take into account the heal ;)

Always difficult to compare crossfaction. Please also note that the Silent One trigger is on Df only.

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16 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

Wyrd's job is usually good in terms of balancing, we are speaking of a 1SS tweak and a bit of cuddle.

That is actually huge deal that would be enough to make the best 6ss model in the game very sub-par, and I don't think the Quellers are anywhere near being the best of anything.

Quote

My main concern about this model is that it is a hard counter to suited defensive & offensive triggers as well as any kind of damage reduction. The model is card hungry but I would happily throw away a card to remove all suits from Pandora, Collette, Collodi, Lilith, Titania or any other suit depending master.

Removing suits is at best a soft counter, especially when you take into account that it is only in a limited area that the model can choose to leave. (Also, Pandora is far from being suit dependant.)

Quote

We are talking about a 6SS minion that can significantly hinder both the offense & the defense of your opponent's most dangerous pieces from 12" away. This is even more potent for strategies requiring to hold zones/markers.

...as long as they are unable to move for some reason.

Quote

Additionally, I would gladly spend one AP from my minion to allow my long range models to potentially one shot some of the more squeashy incorporeal/armoured models (or to allow Francisco to wreck faces even more efficiency than he usually does).

Name one good non-master ranged model in Guild. I really want to know, because I would like to play one.

Quote

At the end of the game, this model can even participate in the melee and dish out a significant amount of damage to finish out any hard target that survived (I do not think that the damage track is especially low, it is very respectable when you see what it ignores and its precision).

It can't do everything, because everything it can do costs AP.

Quote

Always difficult to compare crossfaction. Please also note that the Silent One trigger is on Df only.

"I would not take them over Lightning Bugs. Buff plz."

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4 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Name one good non-master ranged model in Guild. I really want to know, because I would like to play one.

Thats like the 5th post that I read about those mythical Guild gunlines but all I see is Collodi with changelings and Doppelganger and a trapper :D

 

I also don't think this will be better than Ooh Glowy Tavish

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6 minutes ago, trikk said:

I also don't think this will be better than Ooh Glowy Tavish

It won't even come close to Glowy Swine Cursed and Burt. Have you seen those things on the table? Absolutely disgusting.

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Well. They aren't broken at shooting so I didn't include them :D

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2 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Name one good non-master ranged model in Guild. I really want to know, because I would like to play one.

Imho it does not need to be exceptional if it ignores damage reduction (a severe of 4 against an incorporeal model normally deals 2 damages whereas it deals 4 with an enchanted gun, a lot of incorporeal models have 3-4 Wd).

2 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

It can't do everything, because everything it can do costs AP.

It cannot do everything it costs AP. However, it can do anything it needs at the right moment and switch gears every turn upon need.

4 minutes ago, Myyrä said:
Quote

My main concern about this model is that it is a hard counter to suited defensive & offensive triggers as well as any kind of damage reduction. The model is card hungry but I would happily throw away a card to remove all suits from Pandora, Collette, Collodi, Lilith, Titania or any other suit depending master.

Removing suits is at best a soft counter, especially when you take into account that it is only in a limited area that the model can choose to leave. (Also, Pandora is far from being suit dependant.)

This is a very powerful assassination enabler, depending on the order of activation. Addtionallly, your master can need to contest zones.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

Thats like the 5th post that I read about those mythical Guild gunlines but all I see is Collodi with changelings and Doppelganger :D and a trapper :D

Some may say that the trapper itself could be 7SS and still be taken... I do not think the trapper is an example of proper model balance, especially along with a changeling :P

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1 minute ago, yool1981 said:

Imho it does not need to be exceptional if it ignores damage reduction (a severe of 4 against an incorporeal model normally deals 2 damages whereas it deals 4 with an enchanted gun, a lot of incorporeal models have 3-4 Wd).

 

I want names!

1 minute ago, yool1981 said:

This is a very powerful assassination enabler, depending on the order of activation. Addtionallly, your master can need to contest zones.

Masters can get around this by using a SS, so not a hard counter.

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Also with 3" I don't know what kind of Zone you need to contest to stick in it. Even inGtS you can avoid it

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26 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

My main concern about this model is that it is a hard counter to suited defensive & offensive triggers as well as any kind of damage reduction. The model is card hungry but I would happily throw away a card to remove all suits from Pandora, Collette, Collodi, Lilith, Titania or any other suit depending master.

We are talking about a 6SS minion that can significantly hinder both the offense & the defense of your opponent's most dangerous pieces from 12" away. This is even more potent for strategies requiring to hold zones/markers.

Now we are talking about core idea here.
Queller is not a hardcounter to any master because every master can you know... walk. Also soulstone usage.
He is a zoning tool and he is good at it. He is a buffer and he is fine at it. But I see nothing that in my mind makes him super broken. If we can get rid of all tactical abilities- he is far worse than any 6ss beatstick(outside of ronin, but ronin is not even an option in our universe).
I think that ox mages, silent ones, rooster riders, angelica, ice dancer, merris, iron skeeters, waldgates, stiched together, trapper, dead outlaws and far far more models are as good as queller in what they are doing for their 6ss.

Once again is this a good model? Yes, hell yes. Is it OP? Mmmmm nah. half of models listed higher are actualy more autoinclude than this guy.

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6 minutes ago, Myyrä said:
9 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

Imho it does not need to be exceptional if it ignores damage reduction (a severe of 4 against an incorporeal model normally deals 2 damages whereas it deals 4 with an enchanted gun, a lot of incorporeal models have 3-4 Wd).

 

I want names!

Let's go worst case scenario with an unimpressive damage track. You have a 5SS guild rifleman. His attack deals:

(1) Guard Rifle (Sh 6 / Rst: Df / Rg: z14): Target suffers 1/2/4 damage. When this Attack Action gains the benefits of the Focused Condition, it gains +R to the final duel total.
R Critical Strike: When damaging the target, this Attack deals +1 damage for each R in the final duel total.

So your attack from 14" away goes from 2/3/5 (if it focused or had a ram) to the equivalent of 4/6/10 against an incorporeal model. It is not too shabby I think.

2 minutes ago, FinalForm said:

Queller is not a hardcounter to any master because every master can you know... walk. Also soulstone usage.

Hum soulstone usage only gets you so far sometimes and walking is an option but less so depending on what your master has to do during the course of the game. The Queller is not limited to 1 marker.

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7 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

Hum soulstone usage only gets you so far sometimes and walking is an option but less so depending on what your master has to do during the course of the game. The Queller is not limited to 1 marker.

In most cases on third turn you will have 2-3 markers where you need them. Almost always this will waste you cards. And again yes this is a stong ability, but only 3 of them and for 6 ss.
This is a powerful zoning tool, but not too powerful.

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11 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

Let's go worst case scenario with an unimpressive damage track. You have a 5SS guild rifleman. His attack deals:

(1) Guard Rifle (Sh 6 / Rst: Df / Rg: z14): Target suffers 1/2/4 damage. When this Attack Action gains the benefits of the Focused Condition, it gains +R to the final duel total.
R Critical Strike: When damaging the target, this Attack deals +1 damage for each R in the final duel total.

So your attack from 14" away goes from 2/3/5 (if it focused or had a ram) to the equivalent of 4/6/10 against an incorporeal model. It is not too shabby I think.

Did you see the front of the Rifleman? Df4, 5 Wds? Those guys are so weak I'd swap them for Bayou Bushwackers and nobody plays Bushwackers...

 

Mages, Silent Ones, Lightning Bugs for a start kill Incorporeal models without needing a 6SS buffer.

Queller has to have cards to throw the markers and he has to throw them in LoS. Collodi kills him quite fast, even with no suits. You don't have to stand in the surpression area. Its actually pretty hard to spam the markers without using 10+ of tomes and almost all of the masters you mentioned are pretty mobile.

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2 minutes ago, trikk said:

Did you see the front of the Rifleman? Df4, 5 Wds?

That's why he said "Let's go worst case scenario".

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We're still waiting for the best case scenarios :)

There's a lot of talk about the Guild range game but apart from Masters there's not much competitive ranged models in Guild.

Especially that if I had the Queller I don't know what I would have to have in my crew to enchant the Riflemen

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27 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

It cannot do everything it costs AP. However, it can do anything it needs at the right moment and switch gears every turn upon need.

Yes. That's an advantage, not a complaint.

There's lots of toolbox models in this wave (not just for Guild, look at the Bone Pile which literally changes form every turn to the tool you need and Serena the ranged attack/healer/undying) who will always have something to do and don't suffer from being below standard in any of those approaches. It's a slightly different direction from earlier waves and I love it.

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1 minute ago, Gnomezilla said:

There's lots of toolbox models in this wave (not just for Guild, look at the Bone Pile which literally changes form every turn to the tool you need and Serena the ranged attack/healer/undying) who will always have something to do and don't suffer from being below standard in any of those approaches. It's a slightly different direction from earlier waves and I love it.

This approach is fine by me as long as the model is costed accordingly.

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

We're still waiting for the best case scenarios :)

Should I search through all the references and give you all the possible scenarios where effectively doubling your output against incorporeal models at range is very good?

I unfortunately do not have the time. So I took a 5SS somewhat unimpressive model to show the fact that having a huge damage track is not required to get the best of this ability.

12 minutes ago, trikk said:

Queller has to have cards to throw the markers and he has to throw them in LoS.

All models have to spend cards to carry out their actions and there is a lot worse than having to stay 12" away from the opponent to throw down markers.

I still like terror tots even though only a quarter of my deck can trigger their sprint.

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Some Masters need two suits in their TN or two suits for a trigger, you can't stone for both of them. Ironsides has an inbuilt :ram on her Brass Knuckles action and all of her triggers on that action require two suits. Rasputina needs two suits for both of her triggers on December's Curse. Obviously these weaknesses were built into these attacks so that they could be countered, but before the Thalarian Queller you would need a model (that you can actually fight) near you with Nether Flux or be targeting a model with Counterspell, which only works on Ca. The Suppression Markers need some tweaking in my opinion, you can throw them 12" away with no way for your opponent to actually interact with them, if they were :aura3 you could at least get out of LoS or stand on them with a 50mm. They could still push the markers with the :mask trigger on the attack but your opponent could at least play around the markers, even in engagements or on objectives. 

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3 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

I unfortunately do not have the time. So I took a 5SS somewhat unimpressive model to show the fact that having a huge damage track is not required to get the best of this ability.

You showed us that 11ss worth of models can waste an entire turn trying to kill a single Sorrow.

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