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Rogue1

Thallarian Queller

74 posts in this topic

I will admit I have not had a chance to face this model yet but at first and even second glance it seems very strong for a 6ss minion.  Specifically I am looking at the area suppression action.  I think what strikes me most is that once in place there is no way for the opponent to remove the markers which have no end time combined with the relatively long range.  This could make certain strategies very hard to complete without entering the area of one or more markers (turf war, extraction, guard the stash, squatter's rights).

I know some models are not greatly effected by the markers but as someone who runs Hannah, Freikorps Librarians, and numerous models with counterspell I have witnessed first hand how powerful removing suits can be.

My suggestion is rather than changing the action itself is adding an ability that when a Queller is killed checks and if there are no other friendly Quellers in play removes the markers.  This would allow some opponent interaction and may give additional value to having a second Queller in the list.

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16 hours ago, Rogue1 said:

I will admit I have not had a chance to face this model yet but at first and even second glance it seems very strong for a 6ss minion.  Specifically I am looking at the area suppression action.  I think what strikes me most is that once in place there is no way for the opponent to remove the markers which have no end time combined with the relatively long range.  This could make certain strategies very hard to complete without entering the area of one or more markers (turf war, extraction, guard the stash, squatter's rights).

I know some models are not greatly effected by the markers but as someone who runs Hannah, Freikorps Librarians, and numerous models with counterspell I have witnessed first hand how powerful removing suits can be.

My suggestion is rather than changing the action itself is adding an ability that when a Queller is killed checks and if there are no other friendly Quellers in play removes the markers.  This would allow some opponent interaction and may give additional value to having a second Queller in the list.

I can't quite work out if the suppression marker permenently removes the suits, or if it only removes suits while there is a Thalarian Queller in play, or only when the action is taken. 

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It removes the suits while you're within 3" of the marker.

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My read is in line with trikk's which is what my comment was based on.

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I think, as suggested above, a simple, "If there are no Thallarian Quellers in play, remove all Suppression Markers." would do just fine.

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I think there is far too much value for 6SS.

The suppression markers can really mess up with some masters depending on their Df triggers to survive. As has been said previously, the fact that they never disappear is also an issue.

To synthesize, for 6SS, there is:

_ A way to replenish your hand

_ Df5/Wp6 Effective armour 1, 7 Wd

_ A Ml6 Rg 2 attack with an OK damage track ignoring everything but incorporeal, coupled with a decent Cg.

_ A strong debuff to enemy attacks with an OK Ca and a very long Rg

_ A strong buff allowing another model to ignore the ennemy's damage reduction means.

_ The possibility to put markers at very low cost hindering the ennemy's actions and/or greatly reducing the ennemy's defensive capabilities in a very long range of 12.

This model is worth 8SS imho.

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The markers aren't really low cost because they require a suit and they can be pretty worthless versus a lot of enemies in the first place.

The card replenish doesn't work on initiative nor card manipulation so I think most of the time you'll get 1-2 cards per game. Considering you have to drop a card for Concentrated Shielding you're most likely spending more cards than getting

Enchant Weapons is strong but Guild doesn't have any reliable  attacks that ignore reduction so killing an Arm +2 model or Silent One becomes a huge problem if you took the wrong master. Its also kind of enemy dependant because vs a lot of crews you won't ever need to use it.

They are also limited to 2 AP so they can't really do everything anyways

Right now they are not an autoinclude but for 8SS they would become a nope most likely.

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It seems a lot of the concern over the suppression markers is missing the key point that this requires a suit on a model that can't stone for it.  In a faction that outside of one master is pretty card starved and hungry with very little draw and cycling mechanics.  

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5 minutes ago, trikk said:

The markers aren't really low cost because they require a suit and they can be pretty worthless versus a lot of enemies in the first place.

I don't want to speak for all the factions but it is gold against many NB and Arcanists lists.

Just now, jphealy said:

It seems a lot of the concern over the suppression markers is missing the key point that this requires a suit on a model that can't stone for it.

It requires a Tome equal or above 3, it is close to 25% of your deck. It is quite possible. And the marker stays in place so, if you do it correctly, you should only need 2-3 AP per game to use it optimally.

In central melee strategies, this is extremely strong.

8 minutes ago, trikk said:

Enchant Weapons is strong but Guild doesn't have any reliable  attacks that ignore reduction so killing an Arm +2 model or Silent One becomes a huge problem if you took the wrong master. Its also kind of enemy dependant because vs a lot of crews you won't ever need to use it.

It works on projectile attacks which the Guild has plenty of. Long Rg no damage reduction attacks are nasty.

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3 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

It works on projectile attacks which the Guild has plenty of. Long Rg no damage reduction attacks are nasty.

Name one on a good non-master model.

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Sure but its also another card you need.  In a card starved faction.  25% of your deck but its not like you can throw any low card at it.  Look at Sonnia where you effectivly have  a 4 card hand most turns or Dita who is full of card discard mechanics.  This ability is gonna take a lot of thought before you pop it.  

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Just now, Myyrä said:

Name one on a good non-master model.

Pretty much this^

 

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7 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

I don't want to speak for all the factions but it is gold against many NB and Arcanists lists.

It can bait the occasional stone off of some masters but I doubt its going to wreck havoc. He will be a high pick vs Arcanists but mostly due to stupid amounts of non-Armor reduction that they have to which Guild has 0 counterplay.

 

9 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

It requires a Tome equal or above 3, it is close to 25% of your deck. It is quite possible. And the marker stays in place so, if you do it correctly, you should only need 2-3 AP per game to use it optimally.

Actually its more like 20% and if you plan using a 11+ on it, go ahead. I doubt I would. Its most likely 3-8 are stable and 9-10 are depending on the situation and enemy. S

 

11 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

It works on projectile attacks which the Guild has plenty of. Long Rg no damage reduction attacks are nasty.

Myyra summed this one up pretty good.

 

13 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

In central melee strategies, this is extremely strong.

Depending on the opponent. Some will just ignore it because it will affect 1 model in the entire crew.

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Pretty much all the Guild's models have Rg10+ attacks, some of them ignoring cover.

Even a simple 2/3/5 peacebringer attack is good when your attack cannot be reduced (see my below remark about the Incorporeal models).

12 minutes ago, jphealy said:

Look at Sonnia where you effectivly have  a 4 card hand most turns

Sonnia does not have to discard to be effective. This only means you have a choice to make :D

3 minutes ago, trikk said:
17 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

It requires a Tome equal or above 3, it is close to 25% of your deck. It is quite possible. And the marker stays in place so, if you do it correctly, you should only need 2-3 AP per game to use it optimally.

Actually its more like 20% and if you plan using a 11+ on it, go ahead. I doubt I would. Its most likely 3-8 are stable and 9-10 are depending on the situation and enemy. S

You are right.

3 minutes ago, trikk said:
18 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

In central melee strategies, this is extremely strong.

Depending on the opponent. Some will just ignore it because it will affect 1 model in the entire crew.

Well you select your crew after knowing the opposing faction, the terrain, the schemes & strats. You can anticipate a bit (but not completely that is sure).

Additionally, it is not as if this model could not do anything else. It is still solid in Ml for example.

5 minutes ago, trikk said:

He will be a high pick vs Arcanists but mostly due to stupid amounts of non-Armor reduction that they have to which Guild has 0 counterplay.

I am a former Warmachine player where hard counters are the way to go. It is not a fun experience and very bad for the interest of the game imho.

Removing all damage reduction at a distance is not good.

You also neutralize incorporeal with the enchanted weapons, which is VERY bad for a lot of models, especially since incorporeal models tend to have a low Wd count.

 

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7 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

Pretty much all the Guild's models have Rg10+ attacks, some of them ignoring cover.

Even a simple 2/3/5 peacebringer attack is good when your attack cannot be reduced (see my below remark about the Incorporeal models).

 

When you consider the fact that the Queller needs to spend AP to get that reduction ignore going, you could have just taken another model that could have shot at the target and probably done more damage.

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9 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

Pretty much all the Guild's models have Rg10+ attacks, some of them ignoring cover.

Even a simple 2/3/5 peacebringer attack is good when your attack cannot be reduced (see my below remark about the Incorporeal models).

Sonnia does not have to discard to be effective. This only means you have a choice to make :D

You are right.

Well you select your crew after knowing the opposing faction, the terrain, the schemes & strats. You can anticipate a bit (but not completely that is sure).

Additionally, it is not as if this model could not do anything else. It is still solid in Ml for example.

I am a former Warmachine player where hard counters are the way to go. It is not a fun experience and very bad for the interest of the game imho.

Removing all damage reduction at a distance is not good.

You also neutralize incorporeal with the enchanted weapons, which is VERY bad for a lot of models, especially since incorporeal models tend to have a low Wd count.

If Enchanted Weapons was an 8" aura around the Queller I could consider agrreeing with you but from a competetive point of view using Enchanted Weapons for Peacebringer shots is not really a best use of AP or the Queller. Bayou Gremlins and Lightning Bugs laugh at this to be honest.

 

Sonnia usually requires a discard to be effective considering she usually has to put herself in danger versus good opponents so she needs to maximize her damage output

 

The model can do something else but it can`t put 3 markers, enchant weapons, use the wand and the sword at the same time.

 

This is not a hard counter to anything. A hard counter is playing Hoffman vs Viks and getting demolished in 2 turns. Its not like its the first thing that ignores incorporeal in the game. 

 

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Let's do a bit of test on the table and we will see how it goes.

2 minutes ago, trikk said:

The model can do something else but it can`t put 3 markers, enchant weapons, use the wand and the sword at the same time.

You do not have to do anything at once. You just have to do so at the right time.

7 minutes ago, trikk said:

Its not like its the first thing that ignores incorporeal in the game. 

A reference that ignores incorporeal & armour is one thing. One that allows anyone in your crew but your master to ignore armour or incorporeal whenever it is the most convenient is imho a hard counter to these defensive abilities.

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2 hours ago, yool1981 said:

I think there is far too much value for 6SS.

The suppression markers can really mess up with some masters depending on their Df triggers to survive. As has been said previously, the fact that they never disappear is also an issue.

To synthesize, for 6SS, there is:

_ A way to replenish your hand

_ Df5/Wp6 Effective armour 1, 7 Wd

_ A Ml6 Rg 2 attack with an OK damage track ignoring everything but incorporeal, coupled with a decent Cg.

_ A strong debuff to enemy attacks with an OK Ca and a very long Rg

_ A strong buff allowing another model to ignore the ennemy's damage reduction means.

_ The possibility to put markers at very low cost hindering the ennemy's actions and/or greatly reducing the ennemy's defensive capabilities in a very long range of 12.

This model is worth 8SS imho.

For 8 ss, nobody would take it. It would suffer the Captain's syndrome.

What I like about Enchanted weapon is that we may see Samael Hopkins a bit more often.

 

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You nailed it. This is exactly the Captain's syndrome !

There should be less on the card because for 6SS it seems like a huge bargain.

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The Captain doesn't have too much on his card. He just costs too much Same with the Handler. This guy has a lot of situational abilities that will make him a more common pick.

I had two games with him vs Titania and Sandeep and he managed to kill a Wind Gamin and placed a marker that blocked a Silent One in Sandeep and managed to do some damage in the Titanian game as I never had the card for the marker. I also Subdued Claw once.

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Having used one, it's good, but not great. All four of its actions cost 1ap, so it's quite limited in what it can actually do. Maybe making one of its tactical actions a (0), and toning down the front of card stats, and you'd have a nice 6ss minion that has good utility while dealing decent damage. As it is, I certainly wouldn't pay more than 6ss for it. 

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It should probably just have 6 wounds. When a model is relatively tanky for its cost (Wd>SS and a defensive ability) it probably shouldn't also provide this much utility. Dropping one wound will usually translate to one less AP to take it down, and force slightly more careful play. At 6 Wds I think we'd have a nicely balanced model here.  

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I think 6 Wds would probably discourage people from going into melee with this guy. I don`t think 7 is overkill

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12 hours ago, fauxreigner said:

It should probably just have 6 wounds. When a model is relatively tanky for its cost (Wd>SS and a defensive ability) it probably shouldn't also provide this much utility. Dropping one wound will usually translate to one less AP to take it down, and force slightly more careful play. At 6 Wds I think we'd have a nicely balanced model here.  

Six wounds with Arcane shield means that with an average damage of 2, it'll take 6 AP to kill her.  With an average damage of 3 it'll take 3 AP to kill her.  That's pretty good for a 6 ss model.  7 wounds is almost too good as it'll take 4 AP with minimum damage 3 to kill her.

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That only works if Arcane Shielding is on all the tine and I doubt it will. I mean look at mages. They have 7 wds basically while being a backliner and they do cost 5 ;)

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